Jesus changed my life!!!!!

[JennyMominRI]

Nope, b/c it's impossible for God to lie. Who was the covenant with? What exactly WAS the covenant? Are ALL Jews included? What do you think?

Yes,it was for ALL Jewsfor all time..I'm curious,Have you ever studdied Judaism,and not through Christian sources?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I do believe that everyone of each religion believes they have made the right choice, but I don't think that means that everyone who claims to believe their religion is the right one in turn has no respect for anyone else's choice of religion (or non-religion) or beliefs, as is sometimes implied in some of the discussions I have been part of.

Exactly. I don't need someone else to be wrong for me to be right.

 

[lovethattink]

I know I am jumping in a little late to this particular discussion...

As far as if all religions believe in the same God, this is my feeling. For Christians, God is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. That does make the definition of God different from other religions, and so to me I can't see how all religions could have the same God. However, I do believe that the God of the Jewish religion is who Christians consider God the Father, so by that it is the same God, though, well, not God in the way that I as a Christian understand Him. Really clarifies things, doesn't it?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say, but you said it much better.

 

[Buckalew11]

But what did Abraham believe about God? Who was Abraham following? What does the Bible say about it - "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to Him as righteousness." Were the non-believing Jews believing the same as Abraham? Nope.

Well, my point was more about how even though God hadn't taken the form of man at that time, Jesus was still there from the beginning, and therefore Abraham was still following the same God that Christians follow.

Now I see where Jenny says that non-believing Jews were the same as Abraham because it isn't about what they believe but about whether they are good Jews but I would disagree with that--because I think that God does and has always cared about what you believe. That is why His wrath was so often seen. He is and always was and always will be a jealous God who doesn't want people to follow false gods. I think that was another reason for Him giving the 10 commandments...so all can see that we aren't and cannot be good enough.

 

[Buckalew11]

I know I am jumping in a little late to this particular discussion...

As far as if all religions believe in the same God, this is my feeling. For Christians, God is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. That does make the definition of God different from other religions, and so to me I can't see how all religions could have the same God. However, I do believe that the God of the Jewish religion is who Christians consider God the Father, so by that it is the same God, though, well, not God in the way that I as a Christian understand Him. Really clarifies things, doesn't it?

This is also what I believe.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Well, my point was more about how even though God hadn't taken the form of man at that time, Jesus was still there from the beginning, and therefore Abraham was still following the same God that Christians follow.

Now I see where Jenny says that non-believing Jews were the same as Abraham because it isn't about what they believe but about whether they are good Jews but I would disagree with that--because I think that God does and has always cared about what you believe. That is why His wrath was so often seen. He is and always was and always will be a jealous God who doesn't want people to follow false gods. I think that was another reason for Him giving the 10 commandments...so all can see that we aren't and cannot be good enough.

He gave the 10 commandments to Jews..They are different from the rules he sets for other..In reality the 10 commandmetns are more like an outline of the 613 commandments. And they are for Jews...Jews were not to worship false g-ds etc...He has different rules for non-Jews...This is exactly why you don't see Jews trying to force non-Jews to follow Jewish laws.

 

[Buckalew11]

He gave the 10 commandments to Jews..They are different from the rules he sets for other..In reality the 10 commandmetns are more like an outline of the 613 commandments. And they are for Jews...Jews were not to worship false g-ds etc...He has different rules for non-Jews...This is exactly why you don't see Jews trying to force non-Jews to follow Jewish laws.

I believe that when Jesus was rejected as the messiah, God opened the invitation to all. The 10 commandments are His rules for mankind now and no one can completely keep them. It is just impossible. Our God is the same God and He would not want me to have other gods before Him either.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I need to add that you are correct,in the Tanakh G-d does get mad at other peoples,but it is usually because of their actions..Incest, Rape , Inhospitality,Human sacrifices etc.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I believe that when Jesus was rejected as the messiah, God opened the invitation to all. The 10 commandments are His rules for mankind now and no one can completely keep them. It is just impossible. Our God is the same God and He would not want me to have other gods before Him either.

I absolutely believe your G-d is my G-d and I have stated before that Jesus(and Mohammid) may very well have been the way to bring non_Jews to the G-d of Abraham .


I need to add that in the Noah story G-d passeddown some commandments to everyone...Those are his rules for all mankind..The Noahide Laws..
But once again even these laws have nothing to do with Salvation,as salvation is not a Jewish concept

 

[Buckalew11]

Jenny, thanks for the discussion...I am heading to my dad's to check on him. Thanks for sharing your views and beliefs, I always enjoy it! You have the patience of Job to explain many things to us here. I appreciate your openess and your kindness in doing so!

 

[eclectics]

My belief based on the Bible is that God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us when interpreting the Scriptures. Also, I see it as critical to interpret Scripture in light of other Scripture and look at it as a whole, rather than take singular verses or passages and look at them individually (which can lead to misinterpretation). So I would say that God via the Holy Spirit guides us in interpreting His Word. Plus, much of Scripture is not hotly debated and is interpreted the same way by various denominations and religions. That's just my two cents.

Thanks. I don't believe one can take the Bible literally in a strict sense, but I know some do, and some down to the letter. So if God guides us in interpreting scripture, everyone can be "guided" in slightly different directions. It makes sense to me that a certain verse can be slightly gray, for lack of a better term, and open for one's own interpretation to a certain degree. I'm not putting down those who say the Bible's words are literal and can't be open for discussion, I just feel differently.

 

[lovethattink]

Thanks for an interesting discussion. I think we are off to Epcot for the evening. The goat cheese pastry at France's food and wine booth is calling me, yum!

 

[eddad]

Thanks for an interesting discussion. I think we are off to Epcot for the evening. The goat cheese pastry at France's food and wine booth is calling me, yum!

I'm So JEALOUS!!!!!!

 

[phillybeth]

But once again even these laws have nothing to do with Salvation,as salvation is not a Jewish concept

Jenny (or anyone else), if salvation is not a Jewish concept, then why did his followers see Jesus as a savior? Did the apostles and disciples see him as a political savior until Paul turned him into a religious one? I admit my memory of the early Christian church is not what it used to be

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jenny (or anyone else), if salvation is not a Jewish concept, then why did his followers see Jesus as a savior? Did the apostles and disciples see him as a political savior until Paul turned him into a religious one? I admit my memory of the early Christian church is not what it used to be

I have no idea..I really don't know why the Christian church developed in the manner it did...With no concept of Hell or of Eternal damnation,there really was no need for a savior(in the saved from sin sense). Jews were in pretty dire straights in the early 1st century with mass persecutions and crucifixians by romans,and in desperate times people will look for different things. I've read what Jesus preached and it is really pretty basic Jewish theology..In fact the Goldren Rule comes pretty much straight from something the Rabbi Hillel preached..There is a school of tought that Jesus leanred under Hillel as they say so many similar things.

 

[ead79]

I have a new question for everyone. If you go to a church, temple, mosque, etc., how did you choose the church you attend vs going to other similar ones? Do you consider the other members of that church to be your church family? Do you feel part of that church community?

I chose the church I attend for several reasons. First, it's important to me that my church base it's beliefs on the Bible. Second, it's important to me that my church focus on ministering to the needs of others and sharing the gospel with others in a respectful, polite way. Third, and this isn't really important in the grand scheme of things, I like the way they organize their worship service. I enjoy the mixture of traditional hymns and newer praise songs. I do consider the other church members to be my church family, though it's a large church, so you really have to be a part of a smaller group within the church to feel at home more. I sing in the choir, and that's the group of people that feel most like family to me since I know them the best.

 

[ead79]

Thanks. I don't believe one can take the Bible literally in a strict sense, but I know some do, and some down to the letter. So if God guides us in interpreting scripture, everyone can be "guided" in slightly different directions. It makes sense to me that a certain verse can be slightly gray, for lack of a better term, and open for one's own interpretation to a certain degree. I'm not putting down those who say the Bible's words are literal and can't be open for discussion, I just feel differently.

Sure, no problem. I do not believe that every single part of Scripture can be interpreted literally, but I do believe that much of it is indeed quite literal. Take for example, the verse during the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." (Matthew 5:27-29 NASB) I believe that Jesus was cautioning us about the importance of keeping His commandments and avoiding letting our lustful desires lead us to doing something we are forbidden to do. I do not believe that Jesus literally meant that we should poke our eyes out if we have a lustful thought. I believe it was meant to caution us about the importance and seriousness God places on the issue of adultery and lust. My pastor said something pretty funny about this very topic. He said that if a man tells him that he believes in a 100% literal interpretation of the Bible but he still has both eyes, then he knows he's lying! I do, however, believe that there are clear doctrinal points in the Bible that aren't open to different interpretations. Of course, I understand that many disagree with me.

 

[ead79]

Jenny (or anyone else), if salvation is not a Jewish concept, then why did his followers see Jesus as a savior? Did the apostles and disciples see him as a political savior until Paul turned him into a religious one? I admit my memory of the early Christian church is not what it used to be

I can't speak from the Jewish perspective, but I would say that Jesus' followers saw him as a religious Savior because of Jesus' own words and teachings. Jesus spoke about entering the Kingdom of Heaven through Him alone, about bringing others into a relationship with Christ, and about salvation from sins numerous times. While these may have been new concepts to His followers, many chose to believe Him. Of course, Jewish people who did not choose to accept Jesus' teachings and claims of being the Messiah did not agree with Jesus' teachings about heaven, hell, and salvation. The Christian viewpoint is that while God outlined a set of laws and moral codes for His chosen people, the Jews, mankind is wholly unable to keep these laws 100% of the time. Hence, the need for salvation and a permanent atonement for sins. Of course, the Jewish viewpoint disagrees.

ETA: Christians also see Jesus as a fulfillment of the law and God's covenant. We see Him as the bringer of salvation to the gentiles as well as the fulfillment of God's covenant with the Jewish people. Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB). Jewish people do not view Jesus as the Messiah, and thus do not see Him as a fulfillment of their covenant. They therefore believe in the original covenant God made with Abraham.

 

[JennyMominRI]

IETA: Christians also see Jesus as a fulfillment of the law and God's covenant. We see Him as the bringer of salvation to the gentiles as well as the fulfillment of God's covenant with the Jewish people. Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB). Jewish people do not view Jesus as the Messiah, and thus do not see Him as a fulfillment of their covenant. They therefore believe in the original covenant God made with Abraham.

I thought this might be a good time for me to add the Jewish attitude towards Halacha(jewish law)
Jewish law applies to Jews as a whole,but each law does not apply toeach person
Some are for the temple(which no longer exists), some are for men, some are for women, some are for priests(which no longer exist)..Some are about how we should treat slaves, but that does not mean we should go out and get a slave so that we can keep the laws concerning them. Some are about farming and pertain to farmers, but that doesn't mean we need to go buy a farm to keep them.
This is a Judicial System,much like the US judicial system..Within the US there is a body of laws to be kept by the entire country..Now some of the laws of the US refer to property ownership...Someone who does not own property would not deal with those laws..Some laws are about patents/ copywrites etc...Those laws would pertain to people involved in that area. I'm an American but I do not need to go out and invent something so I can keep laws regarding patents
Jewish law applies to Jewish people as a whole ,but every single law will not be applied by ever single person

 

[ead79]

I thought this might be a good time for me to add the Jewish attitude towards Halacha(jewish law)
Jewish law applies to Jews as a whole,but each law does not apply toeach person
Some are for the temple(which no longer exists), some are for men, some are for women, some are for priests(which no longer exist)..Some are about how we should treat slaves, but that does not mean we should go out and get a slave so that we can keep the laws concerning them. Some are about farming and pertain to farmers, but that doesn't mean we need to go buy a farm to keep them.
This is a Judicial System,much like the US judicial system..Within the US there is a body of laws to be kept by the entire country..Now some of the laws of the US refer to property ownership...Someone who does not own property would not deal with those laws..Some laws are about patents/ copywrites etc...Those laws would pertain to people involved in that area. I'm an American but I do not need to go out and invent something so I can keep laws regarding patents
Jewish law applies to Jewish people as a whole ,but every single law will not be applied by ever single person

That certainly makes sense. Out of curiosity, do current Jewish people trace their lineage in order to determine which tribe of Judaism they are a member of? How does that work? Also, since the temple has been destroyed, do Jewish people have ceremonies or something similar to imitate or commemorate the sacrifices and other rituals that were to take place at the temple? You are a wealth if information!