January Boycott of Disney underway.....

[airlarry!]

M. JeffH:

Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed. As proof the staff has been reduced from 2300 to 600 animators in less than two years. Disney has continually produced the best of 2d animated features since 1938, but will not make it to its 70th anniversary as a hand-drawn animated studio.

The Florida project involved 43 square miles of private development, including a large initial park complete with two beautiful resorts on a monorail surrounded by water activities, a water park (the first of its kind), and an award-winning campground. A master plan was put into place that presented at least three more hotels, with a transportation system that did not rely on buses or cars for patrons to jet around the resort. The company, to its credit, as upgraded some of the hotels with beautiful pools and refurbished many of the rooms.

Now, Disney has added or will add two separate motel complexes accesible only by bus without feature pools or restaurant facilities far, far from the main park, in effect creating the exact same motel environment Walt despised as he watched the citrus trees come down around the original Disneyland.

The company has added many new, exciting, and to some classic Disney thrill rides to its four parks, but has seen areas of the Magic Kingdom remain empty and exposed for years...a blow to show far worse than the fact that Walt did not build the Matterhorn or MMR.

The MGM and AK parks, unlike the MK and Epcot, were purposefully built under the Ei$ner doctrine of half-filled parks intended to provide add-ons to a guests stay and compete with outside parks that were siphoning a small percentage of day-pay guests. This philosophy has continued to this day with the European Studios park and the announced attractions for the Magic Kingdom-HK park.Ei$ner has crowed about the short-term benefits of his namesake philosophy for the record, and has privately expressed concerns about the viability of continued full-fledged park expansion a la the Disney Seas project.

To date, two of the live shows you mention have been closed without live replacement (Lion King and Hunchback).

In the same diatribe against Walt for giving us "size downing clones" of DL's original rides, you crow about Mikey giving us clones of the Euro Stunt Show and Soarin' (rumor has it an exact duplicate). Kudos go for the announcment of Ex:E, which I hope is a big blockbuster as it looks, but I will as per usual reserve judgment until I actually ride the darn thing...cause M:S was a bust in my opinion and can't compare to the re-rideability of Pirates, Splash, Thunder, Space, Rock-n-roller, ToT, and Safari.

Jeff, please don't try and tell us everything is rosy in the Magic Kingdom. It just ain't true. Just the fact that WD is getting out of animation is depressing enough. Just the fact that we are going to be subjected to the Little Mermaid5:Grandma's Little Chicken Of the Sea is enough to make me drown my sorrows in a big Kungaloosh.

Oh, and, yes, I enjoyed my last vacation there, more than any other vacation I've had there. But that does not mean that I am happy with the direction Disney is heading. And I won't stick my head in the sand.

 

[WDSearcher]

airlarry,

Disney isn't "getting out of animation" ... they are downsizing 2d animation, but that's a factor of market and tastes as much as anything else.

If you go back and look at the history of Disney animation ... when 2d was in its heyday, animators were being hired right and left, and being paid enormous salaries (even by their standards -- one animator I know in Florida had his salary cut in half last year, during the first round of "economizing", and still had more than enough to live on, not to mention everything he'd been able to bank during the heady years). The Animation Building was built with no expense spared, and the animators were treated like (and many developed the egos of) gods. And a lot of what they did was worthy of that. Then Pixar came along, and the market began to change.

It was inevitable that time and technology would change animation and that there just wouldn't be the same need for the same number of hand-drawn features as there used to be. And with that comes downsizing and job loss. It was animation's answer to the Internet bubble. You think people didn't lose jobs when Walt and his boys developed the multi-plane camera and all of the other animation time-savers they came up with? Jobs were created too, of course, for those people who embraced the technology.

Just because Disney doesn't have any other 2d projects on the table after the two currently in production doesn't mean that there will never be a 2d project again. But I think we have to understand that the technology has made some things obsolete, as it always does. (Who uses a slide rule any more, after all?) Even Jeff Katzenberg, for all of his wanting to create a "traditional animation studio to rival Disneys" hasn't had a 2d hit ever, and hangs his hat on "Shrek."

RE: Hunchback and Lion King shows ... Hunch is being replaced by the stunt show, currently in production; Legend of the Lion King was replaced by PhilharMagic. So, we get one live show and one 3-D film. A 3-D film that brings back some of the nostalgia of the Mickey Mouse Revue to that venue, as well as bringing 3-D back to that venue (both of which people have lamented being gone). And just because the stunt show is a version / copy of the one in Paris and Soarin' a copy of what's in California doesn't make either attraction automatically negative. After all, didn't Walt first develop WDW as basically an east-coast copy of Disneyland?

 

[Another Voice]

"Oh, and let me be the first to post a typical glib, meaningless response for those of you who don't seem to know the difference between constructive criticism and baseless bashing and slander..."

In my continuing efforts to help, I'd like to publish Disney's® Official Guide to Eisner Criticism and Bashing so that people can tell the difference between constructive criticism and bashing:


Bashing:

Michael Eisner is an evil wretch of a person. He is driven solely by greed and the desire for personal fame and fortune. He is a man without taste, talent, or imgination. He is a bully, he is insecure, he is insincere. He twists everything he touches, he is a blight on the face of Hollywood and of America. The world will only be a better place when he is tossed aside and spends his final days as a shepherd in the more distant regions of Nepal.


Constructive Criticism:

Disney should fire Michael Eisner because he is an evil wretch of a person. Disney should can Michael Eisner because he is driven solely by greed and the desire for personal fame and fortune. Disney should terminate Michael Eisner because he is a man without taste, talent, or imgination. Disney should disassociate itself from Michael Eisner because he is a bully, he is insecure, he is insincere. Disney should sack Michael Eisner because he twists everything he touches, he is a blight on the face of Hollywood and of America. Disney could make the world will only be a better place by tossing out Michael Eisner to spend his final days as a shepherd in the more distant regions of Nepal.

I hope this is of assistance.

 

[MasterGracy]

ANOTHER VOICE,

Yup, that about sums it up. But people like RickInNYC will never get it because they simply just don't care, which is the very reason I could care less what they say about me. Let them remain in their ocean of ignorance (which, by strange coincidence of time and space, is the very definition of NYC). No skin off my nose. They simply need their diapers changed.

 

[airlarry!]

M. Searcher:

I didn't say Disney was 'getting out of animation'--you did. I said "Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed."

"It was inevitable that time and technology would change animation and that there just wouldn't be the same need for the same number of hand-drawn features as there used to be."

Wrong. As John Lassiter says in his interview at the Disney Museum, technology is not king, it is the story that is supreme.

Would it surprise you to learn that staff members in both Burbank and Florida have argued that the flood of cheap sequels and too many rushed projects have contributed to the decline in box office for Disney's own releases? Course it would but it makes more sense than that computers are killing the hand-drawn market. Nope, lack of story, cheap crap on the market, and rushing films before they are ready is what is killing Disney.

You are correct that in life there are no absolutes nor guarantees, but right now the plans are for Disney to get out of the hand-drawn animation market.

Read that sentence again. Puhlease.

Back? Okay, doesn't that irritate you in the least? Or maybe downright tick you off? Or maybe even depress you that the company that STILL makes money off of movies they released 65 years ago is now getting out of the market. And who is to say that they will ever get back in? Please share with us any internal memorandum you have that suggests Disney is on only a temporary hiatus (like the hiatus the submarines are in, perhaps?)

Yes, they are getting two shows in replacement. I was just correcting factual errors in M. JeffH's statements, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the decisions. It is a fact that they got rid of two live action shows based upon Disney hand-drawn releases. It is also a fact that two of the replacements in WDW will be clones. Don't take an inference from these, they are just facts.

I have a question. Some here may not agree with a boycott. Some here do not like The Element pointing out what is not so rosy with the Company.

If you are in that minority what would it take for you to become bearish on the company's creative outlook for the future? What would it take for you to become a vocal critic of the company?

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by airlarry! M. Searcher:

I didn't say Disney was 'getting out of animation'--you did. I said "Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed."

Sorry for attributing a quote to you. I realize now that I had read that in someone else's post, but was responding to you, and so it got included. I dislike when that's done to me, so my apologies.

Originally posted by airlarry! Would it surprise you to learn that staff members in both Burbank and Florida have argued that the flood of cheap sequels and too many rushed projects have contributed to the decline in box office for Disney's own releases? Course it would but it makes more sense than that computers are killing the hand-drawn market.

Nope. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Those things have indeed contributed to the decline. But I also think that computer animation is where the industry is going. Doesn't mean I think hand-drawn or 2d will or should disappear completely, but every trend report you see of what kids are watching and what kids want to see (and, like it or not, the primary market for animated features is still kids) shows that they want CG animation. Maybe it's ignorance on their part, or a short attention span, but there you go. Technology wins right now. Say all you want about the depth of hand-drawn animation and the richness of color and technique, but technology still wins.

Disney and other studios have already shown us that computer animation won't make a bad story better. But 2d animation won't either. And if you've already got a good story, then CG animation isn't going to make it worse, and it will get it to screen for less money. So 2d loses in both cases.

Originally posted by airlarry! Okay, doesn't that irritate you in the least? Or maybe downright tick you off? Or maybe even depress you that the company that STILL makes money off of movies they released 65 years ago is now getting out of the market.

Sure it does. But I also don't believe that it means the downfall of all things animation or all things entertainment. For years, Hollywood didn't produce musicals, and I hated that. My parents would talk about going to the theater to see Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and watch musicals on the big screen. And it ticked me off that people didn't do that any more because they were too expensive or people didn't want them or whatever the reason. So I rented the old musicals and enjoyed them that way. And now musicals are back, and I can see films like "Chicago" and "Moulin Rouge" and anticipate upcoming film remakes of "The Producers" and "Thoroughly Modern Millie." So to me, this is part of a normal cycle. 2d will go away, all the new stuff will show up and have its day, and then someone will re-create the amazing world of 2d animation and there will be a resurgence. I don't know when that will happen, but I know that between now and then, there are likely to be other things -- entertaining and amazing 3d animation, perhaps -- to watch while I wait. Will there be dreck? Of course. But there will also be Finding Nemo, and other things like it that make me gaze in wonder at what computers can do these days.

Originally posted by airlarry!
I have a question. Some here may not agree with a boycott. Some here do not like The Element pointing out what is not so rosy with the Company.

If you are in that minority what would it take for you to become bearish on the company's creative outlook for the future? What would it take for you to become a vocal critic of the company?

I am a vocal critic of the company, actually. But I don't believe that everything Michael Eisner does is bad and evil, nor do I believe that everything Walt did was pure and good. I see something I don't like -- paint chipping, a bad show, a nasty cast member -- at WDW, and I'll mention it to someone at Guest Relations and then I go on with my vacation. I don't dwell on it. I don't go in looking for things that have slipped, or count the number of rides that are down. To hell with that, I'm on vacation! I know that on any given day, I can't go on 100% of the rides in the parks anyway, nor do I WANT to go on them all. Some of them I just don't like, although it's fine with me if someone else does. I may be annoyed that something is closed, but it doesn't ruin my whole day or my whole opinion of the company. I think Pop Century is a garish, tacky-looking resort. So, I don't stay there. But do I think that the people who like Pop Century or think that it's unique and fun are stupid or wrong? No. Their preference, not mine.

I have, on these very boards, tossed out criticisms of films like "Return to Neverland" and "Country Bear Jamboree" that carry the Disney name, as things the company does that disrespect and insult its fans. I have said that I think Michael has had his day and that he needs to step aside and let someone else take over. But I don't believe he is an evil wretch of a person, that he is driven solely by greed or that he has no taste, talent or imagination. I think he's a high-level, high-powered, high-ego Hollywood executive who is no worse than most of the others at his level, and might even be better than one or two of them.

But I've also asked several times (never receiving an answer, by the way), "If not Michael, who?" Even Roy and Stanley haven't answered that yet. And until someone -- anyone -- comes up with an option of who's going to take over the Walt Disney Company were Michael to step down tomorrow, I'm inclined to continue on with the devil I know. It seems that a large number of people here feel that "different" automatically means "better." And I don't agree with that. Just because someone other than Michael is in the driver's seat doesn't mean that person will instantly and completely embrace the Disney name and philosophy and make it all better again. Yet, as I see movements made on the upper management level, I have hope that soon things will be better. Getting Matt Ouimet to California was a wonderful move, for example.

So my answer to your question is that I AM a vocal critic when I feel something really needs to be criticized. But I am not an automatic vocal critic. I don't disagree with everything just because it was Michael's idea. I've never run a multi-media conglomerate, or even a smaller theme park and animation company, so I have no idea how to do it better, and I really hate Monday morning quarterbacks. And I see no reason to boycott something. If Disney makes a movie I don't like, I just won't go see it. If I think a piece of merchandise is crap, I won't buy it. I'll spend my money on the great film, or the quality souvenir, and leave the dreck alone. And if the other is destined to be made anyway, I guess I can be thankful that all the people who DO see the cruddy movies and buy the cheap stuff are adding to the bottom line and pushing up the value of my stock.

 

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
But people like RickInNYC will never get it because they simply just don't care, which is the very reason I could care less what they say about me. Let them remain in their ocean of ignorance (which, by strange coincidence of time and space, is the very definition of NYC). No skin off my nose. They simply need their diapers changed.

If you do indeed feel that it's no skin off your nose or that you could "care less", why get up in a twist and resort to the most common denominator of insulting people, i.e. pointed remarks at New Yorkers in general, or changing diapers, etc...?

And this is where I smile, shake my head and walk away. I won't discuss anything with anyone when all they can resort to is purposeless insults or inflaming commentary. Especially if they can't support their counterpoint with facts without making stabbing remarks. It's the electronic version of "niener niener niener."

Enjoy the one sided debate folks. I'm out.

 

[JeffH]

I was just correcting factual errors in M. JeffH's statements

There was no factual errors in my statements regarding live entertainment. When Disney adds dozens of live shows/acts (from LM, B&tB to the British Invasion, Nova Era (gone), the living statues, the chair guy, the Castle show) and a few go away...they've still added dozens of live shows/acts.
For the record, I personally hated the elimination of Hunchback, Nova Era, the Diamond Horseshow Revue, and the old animation tour...but life goes on, and we now have Goofy's Jamboree, Mission: Space, Wishes, Philharmagic and the new animation tour...some better some worse.

And I pointed out the fact that MK was just a clone of DL to demonstrate that there wasn't anything amazingly clever or original about WDW in the old days...it was great and still is, but so is the new stuff (except Imagination)...as far as I'm concerned, they should clone everything at WDW (DisneySeas).

And as far as quality goes, Disney stands behind everything they sell and if you have ANY problem with something, they will replace it on the spot...for example:
I lost a just bought metal Aladdin lamp off the boat in IASM and got it replaced in Agraba.
We've had several night trinkets/spinners run down (batteries), and had CMs replace them without even having to ask and one Winnie the Pooh spinner was several months old.
One time I reported a non-Disney sprayer-fan left, and they gave me a voucher to get a free Disney sprayer-fan!!!

 

[MasterGracy]

Aww, poor RickinNYC, the innocent victim. You're right, you said nothing insulting or derogatory and I'm just ganging up on you and being a big ol' meany.

Ya, right. In the first place, I wasn't even talking to you, but you had to go shooting your mouth off because you didn't like what I said to someone else, which had nothing to do with you. You're welcome to comment on anything I post to someone, but if you're going to get nasty about something that doesn't concern you, don't be so surprised if you get a similar response to your snotty attitude. If I was being insulting to you, I suppose I'm just a pawn of Karma. What goes around comes around. I'm sure you'll get over it.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
Aww, poor RickinNYC, the innocent victim. You're right, you said nothing insulting or derogatory and I'm just ganging up on you and being a big ol' meany.

He didn't, you did. Rick merely said that you should keep your "estimation of a Disney fan to yourself". He didn't say anything negative, while on the other hand you said that New Yorkers have attitude problems and that certain people are babies because they need there diapers changed. It is sad that you can't see that.

What is ever more sad is that you continue to last out at those that don't support you or your views. That does nothing to help support your cause except to turn people against it and you. Just because someone disagrees with you on how the Disney company is being run doesn't make them any less a fan then you are.

 

[Zurg]

Seems like the original poster's only contributions to conversation here is in this thread. 8 pages of SPAM.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Um, if supporting this boycott means embracing these attitudes, I think I'm going to Disney. Anyone care to join me?

 

[MasterGracy]

HAUNTED MANSION FAN,

Who are you or RickinNYC to tell anyone to keep their opinions to themselves. In case you didn't know it but this is a debate board for the express purpose of STATING OUR OPINIONS. I complimented someone for being what I thought to be a good Disney fan. Where does anyone get off telling me not to say that?! If you don't like what we're discussing here then why do you keep coming to this thread? Use your brains.

 

[Chuck S]

Ummm...Master Gracy, this is the Rumors and News board, NOT the debate board. The thread was moved on the first day, remember?

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
Who are you or RickinNYC to tell anyone to keep their opinions to themselves. In case you didn't know it but this is a debate board for the express purpose of STATING OUR OPINIONS. I complimented someone for being what I thought to be a good Disney fan.

Having an "opinion" and complimenting someone on being a Disney fan seem to be opposites with you as far as this thread is concerned. Lashing out at those that don't agree with you and calling them non-fans ISN'T an opinion, it is an attack.

If you don't like what we're discussing here then why do you keep coming to this thread?

I could say the same thing to you! You don't seem to like that everyone isn't grabbing their torches and pitchforks and rallying at your farm before heading off to storm the castle.

Use your brains.

And back to the playground we go......

 

[Goofyposter]

Ummm...Master Gracy, this is the Rumors and News board, NOT the debate board. The thread was moved on the first day, remember?

Well...Master G....I'm not sure when things were moved from one board to another...but....I'm "afraid" Chuck is right!

 

[Dznefreek]

Well, we are halfway through January and the only news I have heard about the boycott is here. Guess it never caught on. Good concept+poor execution=no change.

 

[Sarangel]

OK gang. This discussion is over.

You should all know by now that the rules state that there will be no personal attacks on posters. You can disagree all you like, but don't get personal.

Sarangel