It Makes Me So Mad

[niks81]

These arguments are becoming laughable

Bottom line....I bought into DVC to enjoy time at Disney. If I choose not to go and I rent my points or a reservation out, that's my decision because they are my points. I paid for them fair and square just like all the other members out there. Is that to say that I am doing a disservice to other member? No...by letting others tell me how to use something I own, I am doing a disservice to myself.

I think this is one of those things that some of us just need to agree to disagree on.

 

[jmminarik]

Originally posted by Dean
I don't see how one could reasonably complain about anyone renting what they own. There is no ethical issue here as long as everyone who owns at that resort had the same access. If we were talking back when they had the lottery, that might be different.

Well, that's the problem with ethics...they're different for each person. I'll agree there is probably no problems legally given all of the banter in this thread. But to say as a blanket statement that reserving peak times for the sole purpose of renting on what seems to be a regular basis shouldn't offend someone's sense of right or wrong is a statement I'd disagree with.

Like I've said, it doesn't particularly bother me, but I also don't think people's feelings (and the need to express them) are wrong.

-Joe

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by jmminarik
Well, that's the problem with ethics...they're different for each person. I'll agree there is probably no problems legally given all of the banter in this thread. But to say as a blanket statement that reserving peak times for the sole purpose of renting on what seems to be a regular basis shouldn't offend someone's sense of right or wrong is a statement I'd disagree with.

Like I've said, it doesn't particularly bother me, but I also don't think people's feelings (and the need to express them) are wrong.

-Joe

I would reserve the term ethics for more important matter. Anyone can post what they want, wrong or not. Let me give you a similar scenario. Lets assume DVC joined II directly. With II, the week deposited affects the trade power. It is usual for owners at that resort or within that system to choose the week deposited. Which weeks do you think are likely to be deposited, the higheste demand weeks of course. Now Easter and Xmas would have the highest trade power but it's likely that 4th of July, Spring break non Easter, Thanksgiving and early December would be the best value due to the lower points but still high demand. I would think that those in the negative on this thread would feel the same about that practice.

Another similar situation which I've posted once before on a similar thread. I own two weeks at Marriott's Grande Ocean resort. It's a Platinum week which is summer. I use it about half the time and rent it the other half. I always try to get 4th of July to rent it and usually when I use it as well. I can get a higher rent for that week as it's the most in demaand week. With the Marriott floating weeks you can reserve 12 months out if you own one week and 13 months out for 2 or more assuming the reserved weeks are concurrent or consective. I actually bought the second week just to have the 13 month window, just like I bought extra DVC points at BWV to have the 11 month window there. In both cases, I had enough to do what I would use before I took on the extra $20,000 (for each, combined $40K) worth of ownership. I didn't do it to get an advantage to rent, but to use. But the end result in both cases is that it gives me extra I can use for both systems. I made the choice in both circumstances based on the rules at hand. In the case of Marriott, the one month priority could change and I'd be in a more negative position.

Let me stir the pot one more time and say that only the owners at a specific resort should have a direct say in that resort. And they would have had an equal opportunity to reserve at 11 months out, same as anyone else. As I've noted before, I don't reserve high demand times at DVC to rent them, it has been a personal choice not to do so. But I do do that at the Marriott and if it became the only reasonable choice to move the extra points I have, I guess I'd consider doing it at DVC as well.

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Given that there are 1000's of DVC units, what percentage of those are "really" being rented out during peak season? Also, isn't trading your points to Disney (for a DCL or CC exchange) the same as renting them out on your own?. You have no idea what week Disney is going to rent out your traded in points. How do you know Disney CRO isn't renting the units generated from "traded in" points during peak weeks? Is it any more "ethical" for Disney to do it rather than and individual owner?

Do some members feel that DVC ownership would guarantee them a peak season room?

Happy vacationing

 

[dianeschlicht]

Originally posted by Johnnie Fedora
Given that there are 1000's of DVC units, what percentage of those are "really" being rented out during peak season? Also, isn't trading your points to Disney (for a DCL or CC exchange) the same as renting them out on your own?. You have no idea what week Disney is going to rent out your traded in points. How do you know Disney CRO isn't renting the units generated from "traded in" points during peak weeks? Is it any more "ethical" for Disney to do it rather than and individual owner?

Do some members feel that DVC ownership would guarantee them a peak season room?

Happy vacationing

I think that is exactly what CarolMN was suggeting too.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Johnnie Fedora
Given that there are 1000's of DVC units, what percentage of those are "really" being rented out during peak season? Also, isn't trading your points to Disney (for a DCL or CC exchange) the same as renting them out on your own?. You have no idea what week Disney is going to rent out your traded in points. How do you know Disney CRO isn't renting the units generated from "traded in" points during peak weeks? Is it any more "ethical" for Disney to do it rather than and individual owner?

Do some members feel that DVC ownership would guarantee them a peak season room?

Happy vacationing

In principle I agree. And there have been posts about CRO having rooms for somewhat high demand times. However, I know that DVC actually makes a conscious effort not to do this. They have made the choice to have a less helpful non DVC exchange system rather than rent out the weeks they feel are high demand. They actually have that info, we are only guessing as to what we think is high demand. Granted there is some basis for much of this belief but it is not necessarily factual either. DVC feels they could lower the points requirements for some of the exchange options if they rented holidays, etc. That's not to say they never do it, but their plan is to spread the weeks around and concentrate on lower demand, lower occupancy times.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Dean
If one read the POS objectively, here is what they will find. There are a number of references (maybe 5 or 6) specifically saying that it is OK for a person to rent their points. There is one reference preventing one from running a business out of a DVC dwelling. There is a reference where DVC is essentially saying they are not representing that an owner can rent and make a profit (this is in reference to timeshare sales lies). And there is a reference where DVC talks about commercial use in Article 12.1 and a PART of that says if they deem one one is repeatedly renting as a commercial venture, “in it’s reasonable discretion”. There is no definition and there is no penalty or limit listed. So, IMO, I don’t see how a reasonable individual could read the POS and conclude that one can rent only to family and/or friends or for maint fees only else be in violation of the POS. I can see how significant repeated renting would fall into question then the issue is what is the definition.

If "{you} can see how significant repeated renting would fall into question..." then we have some agreement on this issue. I don't suggest that soley renting to family and friends is allowed, or that no renting is allowed, but that the DVC board could determine that frequent ebay auctionaing style renting of prime time holiday weeks at for-profit prices could fall within “in it’s reasonable discretion” as commercial venture, and so does the attorney (non-FLA) I reviewed these sections of the POS document with, especially if the DVC leadership has evidence of a reasonable level of concern expressed by current DVC owners. The attorney suggested that if DVC presented several letters of complaint from current members over this issue, the outcome is uncertain, and will likely be favorable towards DVC's management decision, not the person who frequenty rents. In the interest of full disclosure, I should also let you know this attorney is a friend of mine who reviewed the documents when I stopped by without fee.

I'll defer to others who may need to have the last word on this issue.

 

[Gary K. D.]

Did anyone ever consider that the ever increasing value of our DVC investment was in some small part due the the accessability to the rental market? Perthaps the price of a DCV point, (now upwards of $75.00 on the resale market) has resulted from members knowing that they are able to rent out their extra points with ease through forums such as this. If any of the skeptics on renting were successful in shuting down this avenue, many of the frequent renters who have amassed more points than they could reasonably use in a given year would be forced to sell their extra positions and the incentive for new or repeat buyers to buy into DVC would be greatly reduced. I can see the value of everyones' DVC investment tumbling into the $60.00 range. How quickly would all who complained about the renters long for the good old days when renting was allowed and the prices of our DVC invenstment continue to climb and buck the trend of a timeshare investment? I personally look at the 45% increase in value of MY DVC investment and thank each and every renter for continuing to push the market higher and higher.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Gary K. D.
Did anyone ever consider that the ever increasing value of our DVC investment was in some small part due the the accessability to the rental market? Perthaps the price of a DCV point, (now upwards of $75.00 on the resale market) has resulted from members knowing that they are able to rent out their extra points with ease through forums such as this. If any of the skeptics on renting were successful in shuting down this avenue, many of the frequent renters who have amassed more points than they could reasonably use in a given year would be forced to sell their extra positions and the incentive for new or repeat buyers to buy into DVC would be greatly reduced. I can see the value of everyones' DVC investment tumbling into the $60.00 range. How quickly would all who complained about the renters long for the good old days when renting was allowed and the prices of our DVC invenstment continue to climb and buck the trend of a timeshare investment? I personally look at the 45% increase in value of MY DVC investment and thank each and every renter for continuing to push the market higher and higher.

IMHO, the only reason the value of the DVC "investment" continues to climb is Disney's support of the resale market via its ROFR.

I think each and every person who rents points through the DIS Rent/Trade Forum (for any reason) owes Pete a debt of gratitude for the opportunity to use these Forums for no charge as a market for their points. I'm sure you agree.

FWIW, I have no problem with members renting their points as long as they follow the DVC reservation rules (and of course, they do). I may not think it is "very nice" to book prime time strictly to rent, but it is legal and I would not support any "initiative" to stop it. JMHO. YMMV.

 

[WDWDad]

I don't think I have seen a post on these boards where anyone has advocating the abolishment of a members right to rent. We all agree that the right is present and even beneficial. I believe there are several questions that has been debated for years.

1) At what point does a history of excessive rentals become less of a personal use nature, and become " commercial "?

It has been rumored that there are DVC members who are either profitting from their membership or at least subsidizing it by renting out prime weeks ( not just points) to anyone. These rentals have happened off of the Rent/Trade board as well as E-Bay.


2) If deemed ' Commercial " does that violate the written language of our member agreement ( POS) ?

Again, this has been widely debated. There are clauses in our contract which lend credence to both sides of the argument. What one side calls conclusive, the other disagrees. Until it is challenged by DVD we may never know.

3) Without a clear understanding of what is legal or not we are left with the current status quo system. Under this system the question seems to be. Is it ( I won't use the term ethical) fair to your fellow members to book prime periods of time if your only intention is to rent those points out to the highest bidder ?

I have gone on record before as being aganst this practice. I beliece it does a disservice to your fellow members. I bought into DVC so my family and I could have access to what we believed was a larger family of lovers of all things Disney. We looked forward to the many wonderful people we were going to meet. I did not believe that DVC was some exclusive club, but that instead that we were buying into something for which 'Membership had it's privaleges". Now I have come to find out what some others think those privalages are. As a member I may be taking a back seat to someone who didn't put up the upfront costs as I did, but instead bought a " bargain " off the internet. Life is dfficult and not all vacations can be planned at the opening of the 11 month window which I was fully aware of. I believed that during these impromtu vacations I would be vying with other members for time spots. Fine. I didn't realize that through other members that the general public was going to be wanting time to.

 

[luvindisneyworld]

Originally posted by WDWDad
I don't think I have seen a post on these boards where anyone has advocating the abolishment of a members right to rent. We all agree that the right is present and even beneficial. I believe there are several questions that has been debated for years.

1) At what point does a history of excessive rentals become less of a personal use nature, and become " commercial "?

It has been rumored that there are DVC members who are either profitting from their membership or at least subsidizing it by renting out prime weeks ( not just points) to anyone. These rentals have happened off of the Rent/Trade board as well as E-Bay.


2) If deemed ' Commercial " does that violate the written language of our member agreement ( POS) ?

Again, this has been widely debated. There are clauses in our contract which lend credence to both sides of the argument. What one side calls conclusive, the other disagrees. Until it is challenged by DVD we may never know.

3) Without a clear understanding of what is legal or not we are left with the current status quo system. Under this system the question seems to be. Is it ( I won't use the term ethical) fair to your fellow members to book prime periods of time if your only intention is to rent those points out to the highest bidder ?

I have gone on record before as being aganst this practice. I beliece it does a disservice to your fellow members. I bought into DVC so my family and I could have access to what we believed was a larger family of lovers of all things Disney. We looked forward to the many wonderful people we were going to meet. I did not believe that DVC was some exclusive club, but that instead that we were buying into something for which 'Membership had it's privaleges". Now I have come to find out what some others think those privalages are. As a member I may be taking a back seat to someone who didn't put up the upfront costs as I did, but instead bought a " bargain " off the internet. Life is dfficult and not all vacations can be planned at the opening of the 11 month window which I was fully aware of. I believed that during these impromtu vacations I would be vying with other members for time spots. Fine. I didn't realize that through other members that the general public was going to be wanting time to.

ITA, I could not have said it better myself.

 

[niks81]

Originally posted by WDWDad
(snip)
I beliece it does a disservice to your fellow members. I bought into DVC so my family and I could have access to what we believed was a larger family of lovers of all things Disney.

Having rented before, I can tell you that every renter I have had was a family that loved Disney as well. It was great to be able to help someone that may not be able to afford DVC, but gets the chance to try it out.

As a member I may be taking a back seat to someone who didn't put up the upfront costs as I did, but instead bought a " bargain " off the internet.

Ok, so letting friends/family use your points is different how??
They did not put up the upfront costs either so other members are taking a backseat to them....I don't see the difference there.

 

[Apollo53]

I've been following this post for several days now and have noticed not person has mentioned now renting can increase your DUES.

Since I owe a condo, at Mytle Beach, I can assure you that renting out too just anyone has a direct effect on maintenance cost, in DVC terms your DUES ( I have been in contact with DVC over thier percentage of the maintenance, since they rent out, for this very reason). When people have no vested interest in the property there is a tendency to be a little more careless, often times resulting in damage.

Having said the that, I would rent out points in high demand time if not doing so meant I'd lose them. I doubt seriously I would ever make a practice of renting out points in DVC, since I view it purely as an invest for pleasure. According to the POS everyone has a right to rent which is by me, if they abuse that right then its up too DVC to address the issue.

BTW, the dues issue raises a legal question not covered by the POS and not appropriate in this forum.

 

[niks81]

Hey Carol....I'm not familiar with FWIW and YMMV Can you clue me in?

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Apollo53
I've been following this post for several days now and have noticed not person has mentioned now renting can increase your DUES.

Since I owe a condo, at Mytle Beach, I can assure you that renting out too just anyone has a direct effect on maintenance cost, in DVC terms your DUES ( I have been in contact with DVC over thier percentage of the maintenance, since they rent out, for this very reason). When people have no vested interest in the property there is a tendency to be a little more careless, often times resulting in damage.

I think this situation is far different than a fully owned condo. There's no question that someone who uses something then moves on is not as likely to take care of it as an owenr OVERALL. That doesn't hold true for each and every renter nor does it hold for each owner. The difference in this situation is that each "owner" is more of a renter when compared to the situation you describe.

My experience with those I've rented to is far more like niks81. Several have become owners and each nonmember has been in awe. Much like a kid at the candy store if you bought them something out of the blue. My negative experiences renting have been mostly with members rather than nonmembers. Including a welched rental from one on this board.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Desperado
If "{you} can see how significant repeated renting would fall into question..." then we have some agreement on this issue. I don't suggest that soley renting to family and friends is allowed, or that no renting is allowed, but that the DVC board could determine that frequent ebay auctionaing style renting of prime time holiday weeks at for-profit prices could fall within “in it’s reasonable discretion” as commercial venture, and so does the attorney (non-FLA) I reviewed these sections of the POS document with, especially if the DVC leadership has evidence of a reasonable level of concern expressed by current DVC owners. The attorney suggested that if DVC presented several letters of complaint from current members over this issue, the outcome is uncertain, and will likely be favorable towards DVC's management decision, not the person who frequenty rents. In the interest of full disclosure, I should also let you know this attorney is a friend of mine who reviewed the documents when I stopped by without fee.

I'll defer to others who may need to have the last word on this issue.

I think there are three issues. One is whether certain patterns of rental is detrimental. I think we have a moderate amound of common ground here, that's why I've chosen not to go that route at present. Second is what does the contractual info say, the POS. I think we have a glimmer of agreement here at best but still a slight agreement in very extreme circumstances. Thirdly is whether that matter specifically addressed is enforceable and I say NO, not from a rental standpoint, at least as long as DVC and Disney themselves are renting. I'm not nieve enough to ignore the fact that Disney is a big company and can throw their weight around and that there might be other isses above just the rental issue.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by WDWDad
I don't think I have seen a post on these boards where anyone has advocating the abolishment of a members right to rent. We all agree that the right is present and even beneficial. I believe there are several questions that has been debated for years.

1) At what point does a history of excessive rentals become less of a personal use nature, and become " commercial "?

I think the hang up many have is they equate non commercial with "personal". I would suggest that the commercial is a TRUE business and that the issue of "profit" has no bearing on the discussion. Had DVD only included a definition, all we would have had to argue is whether it's legally enforceable, which I don't feel it is at least from the terms of rental and commercial. If it is enforceable, I can't agree that repeatedly renting high demand weeks on ebay and the like would come under scrutiny. My thoughts would be that it would have to be multiple weeks for multiple years to even come into question.

It has been rumored that there are DVC members who are either profitting from their membership or at least subsidizing it by renting out prime weeks ( not just points) to anyone. These rentals have happened off of the Rent/Trade board as well as E-Bay.

Other than I mentioned above, I don't see this has any bearing. Many people buy timeshares to use part of the time and rent out what they own to cover fees at others, IMO, that's perfectly legit if that's the basis.

3) Without a clear understanding of what is legal or not we are left with the current status quo system. Under this system the question seems to be. Is it ( I won't use the term ethical) fair to your fellow members to book prime periods of time if your only intention is to rent those points out to the highest bidder ?

And I would say yes it is as long as everyone had the same access.

Life is dfficult and not all vacations can be planned at the opening of the 11 month window which I was fully aware of.

No arguement there but if one's personal situation has restrictions that don't fit into DVC well at times, this is not the fault of DVC, other members or renters. Not that you're saying it is, I don't know, but others in the past have complained that rooms should be held for those who couldn't book at 11 months or even for non owners at that resort, in both instances I say absolutely not.

 

[Dean]

I've been thinking about this issue while I was away this weekend. Carried to it's logical conclussion, the way some feel about this issue would mean renters should only rent what others don't want. That means they could only rent out the times that never fill up. There is no place to draw the line except at the beginning or at the end.

 

[Apollo53]

My experience with those I've rented to is far more like niks81. Several have become owners and each nonmember has been in awe. Much like a kid at the candy store if you bought them something out of the blue. My negative experiences renting have been mostly with members rather than nonmembers. Including a welched rental from one on this board.

Since I have never rented points I will take your word for how they treat the the resort. Although, I am wondering how anyone would actually know unless DVC keeps people informed.

 

[WDWDad]

niks81 wrote:

Ok, so letting friends/family use your points is different how??
They did not put up the upfront costs either so other members are taking a backseat to them....I don't see the difference there.


Your right ,there really is none. That's the system that DVD set up, not me. I wish DVC had said that only DVC MEMBERS and their families could stay. This would allow renting to only family members and other DVC members. Now if someone wants to go out on E-Bay and rent time their going to have to get someone to lie to MS and tell them this is my long lost Uncle Fester.

I wish that our MEMBERSHIP actually meant more than access to the DVC website and the right to pool hop occasionally. Apparently the only other perk we have is the right to call at 9 A.M. day by day at the 11 month window to get the reservation I want. If I don't I forfeit the right to get it over the other several billion people on the planet earth. Despite the fact that I 've pd tens of thousands of dollars in purchasing a membership and maintaining it with dues.

You know , one would think I really dislike my DVC membership. I don't . I still consider it one of the best investments I ever made. But I do think there is room for improvement in some areas. I also tend to get overly worked up when I see someone taking advantage of the loopholes in the system to profit . Some would call it the " American Way ". Capitalism at it's finest. Maybe. I will defend our way of life as much as anyone here. But I also recognize a higher purpose, and power, in life. Sometimes it seems we walk to fine a line. JMHO