It Makes Me So Mad

[niks81]

I wish that our MEMBERSHIP actually meant more than access to the DVC website and the right to pool hop occasionally. Apparently the only other perk we have is the right to call at 9 A.M. day by day at the 11 month window to get the reservation I want. If I don't I forfeit the right to get it over the other several billion people on the planet earth. Despite the fact that I 've pd tens of thousands of dollars in purchasing a membership and maintaining it with dues.

Upon reading this I truly felt you were unhappy with DVC But you clarified it in the last portion of your post

I think if there was such a restriction on "only family" you would find 1) People "claiming" friends and others were their family just to let them use the property or to rent it out--which would then be officially breaking the rules and 2) Not as many would buy in. I love Disney World, but if I can't go one year or I just want to go somewhere else, I want that to be an option without feeling like my money was wasted on a timeshare I wasn't using. Last year we honeymooned in Kauai w/o using points...therefore I rented my points out to pay for my stay there. That is such a nice option!

I do think it is unfair to always assume that just because someone has a unit up for rent during high time (aka Member Homecoming) that they purposely did that to make money. I don't think that is always the case and I think that on these boards others just "assume" that is what is going on.

Even if it is the case that a member rented out a unit during high time, I still don't think it is anyone's business. Everyone had the same opportunity.

 

[jacquek95]

Just a quick little 2 cents here. I recently became a DVC owner BECAUSE I was able to rent points from someone and was able to truly understand what it was like to stay at a DVC resort. By what I can tell, there are lots of other DVC members out there just like me. If I hadn't been able to rent before purchasing, I don't think I would have ever done it.

Also, we bought a contract with a ton of banked points that we and/or family members can't use before they're gone. I rented them out (and don't feel guilty about it btw) and several of the people that I rented them out to are doing just what I did (renting 1st to determine if they want to join). I think it's great that we can "share" how wonderful DVC is to others, which might encourage them to make the decision to join (which in my opinion would benefit their families for years to come).

 

[ripleysmom]

I don't think anyone arguing against renting points has a problem with the occasional rentals. Nor do they have a problem with the rentals where the units are reserved after a rental agreement is reached.

It is the members who use the 11 month window to scarf up prime vacation time for auction on ebay or rent on the Rent/Trade board. It is the members who analyze the return on their investment bragging that unless the realize a 10% return they don't feel as though they are making enough money. It is the members who periodically post urging collusion among DVC owners as to what rental prices should be charged.

As to whether or not it is enforceable, I definitely think that reading some of the above mentioned posts would present a strong case to DVD as to the commercial nature of the member's intentions and would, I believe, be a valid basis for booting them out of DVC. Will it happen? Probably not but it would be nice.

My own opinion is that the people who do this to other members (and to potential renters since they are in essence attempting to price fix the market) stink. Period.

 

[niks81]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
As to whether or not it is enforceable, I definitely think that reading some of the above mentioned posts would present a strong case to DVD as to the commercial nature of the member's intentions and would, I believe, be a valid basis for booting them out of DVC. Will it happen? Probably not but it would be nice.

What case would it present to DVC? I didn't see anyone mention that they use DVC for 'commercial' purposes. Did I miss that somewhere? Yes, many of us discussed renting points and our experiences but I didn't see anyone specifically say that's what their points are used for, and quite honestly I doubt that is the case anyways. Like I said in my earlier post, many members on this board "assume" who they think rents for profit only without knowing for sure.

 

[Apollo53]

Also, we bought a contract with a ton of banked points that we and/or family members can't use before they're gone. I rented them out (and don't feel guilty about it btw) and several of the people that I rented them out to are doing just what I did (renting 1st to determine if they want to join). I think it's great that we can "share" how wonderful DVC is to others, which might encourage them to make the decision to join (which in my opinion would benefit their families for years to come).

I don't see anything wrong with the scenario you just described. I think, or at least I hope, this kind of renting isn't what they are discussing.

I thought the issue surrounded two types of renting:

1. Buying points for the sole purpose of renting.
2. Constantly making reservations during highly desired times
and renting it out.

Both of these are questionable practices within the parameters of the POS. It doesn't matter what any member on here feels is right or wrong, nor whether they believe the POS is enforceable or not. Surprisingly, it appears most didn't have the contract reviewed by an attorney before signing the "ole dotted line".

As I stated earlier, this is not the appropriate forum to discuss legal issues. My suggestion to anyone concerned about renting, should speak with an attorney and have their rights under the contract explained rather than rely on opinions posted in a forum.

 

[ripleysmom]

"Did I miss that somewhere?"

Yes. There are posts located on the DVC board with exactly the information that I have given. Perhaps not on this particular thread but definitely on this board. The members who indulge in this activity have a few thousand points to kick around and they use MOST of the points they own for rentals.

 

[Apollo53]

It is the members who use the 11 month window to scarf up prime vacation time for auction on ebay or rent on the Rent/Trade board. It is the members who analyze the return on their investment bragging that unless the realize a 10% return they don't feel as though they are making enough money. It is the members who periodically post urging collusion among DVC owners as to what rental prices should be charged.

Well, I definitely think renting under these circumstances is wrong.

What case would it present to DVC? I didn't see anyone mention that they use DVC for 'commercial' purposes.

Since when does anyone need to say anything in order to be in violation of a contract? Whether someone is in violation is determined by their actions, not what they say.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by ripleysmom It is the members who use the 11 month window to scarf up prime vacation time for auction on ebay or rent on the Rent/Trade board. It is the members who analyze the return on their investment bragging that unless the realize a 10% return they don't feel as though they are making enough money. It is the members who periodically post urging collusion among DVC owners as to what rental prices should be charged.[/B]

We've gone from bashing those that rent to bashing those that look at DVC in an analytical and financial way. I can tell you that every time I use my DVC points, i think how much am I getting for them and what other options do I have. That's true for DVC resorts, any exchange options and for rentals.

Regarding the thread in general, I know there are those that believe that renting is OK except in it's extreme situation. But I honestly think that many people say they don't have a problem with renting except in the extreme, really do. How many times have we seen a post about a time being sold out and they were upset they saw the same time for rent or through CRO? This is the real "me first" attitude.

 

[ripleysmom]

"We've gone from bashing those that rent to bashing those that look at DVC in an analytical and financial way. I can tell you that every time I use my DVC points, i think how much am I getting for them and what other options do I have. That's true for DVC resorts, any exchange options and for rentals."

Dean, how many times have you started a thread telling DVC owners that everyone should be charging more money for their rentals because you need a greater return on your investment?


"Regarding the thread in general, I know there are those that believe that renting is OK except in it's extreme situation."

That has always been my position.


"This is the real "me first" attitude."

We'll just have to disagree on this.

 

[luvindisneyworld]

I do not have a problem with people renting points.I occasionally rent out points.I have got a rental going on rght now for the first of October.They contacted me and then i made the reservation for them.I do not book prime weeks and then try to rent them out.I cannot see doing that.I only rent to a couple of people and that is it.They have contacted me after the first time renting to them.

So,I dont have a problem with renting it is just snatching up prime weeks and then trying to rent them out.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Misty

 

[niks81]

Yes. There are posts located on the DVC board with exactly the information that I have given. Perhaps not on this particular thread but definitely on this board. The members who indulge in this activity have a few thousand points to kick around and they use MOST of the points they own for rentals.

This is what I'm saying....you "assume" you know this. Unless you have heard from a member's mouth that they use most/all their points for renting out, its unfair to assume that and make judgements. Don't forget the maximum points to own is 5000...how do you know that someone isn't renting 2500 and using 2500? You said earlier it was their "actions" not what they say....so you're basing your entire argument from "actions" of certain members on this board.

And sorry, but Dean has a very valid point about charging more for point rentals. Disney's CRO prices go up every year, not to mention our dues (sometimes)...so why stick with the same point price for all of eternity? If I'm trying to rent my points as I did last year to go on my honeymoon, and I'm not breaking even on the cost...then what's the point? Disney charges $330 to rent a studio if you go through CRO....renting at a mere $10 a point runs it at about $140....that's a huge savings for anyone that rents points.....so for Dean to make a comment regarding charging more for a good return on his investment....he's darn right.

By reading my post you would guess that I rent all my points I'm sure....but again that's the wrong assumption to make. Since I bought in I've rented about 1/2 and used 1/2.

 

[jade1]

You solved your own problem.
" It Makes Me So Mad
It makes me so mad when DVC members reserve a room and then try to rent it out during high demand times.There is a thread over on the rent board where they have a studio for rent during MH.
Dont get me wrong i rent my points out to only 1 person but they tell me what dates they need and then i make the reservation.I dont hold a room during peak times when people are on the waitlist for those times.

It just makes me so upset.I am on the waitlist for MH and then you see a post like that."

Why dont you pay cash so you get exactly what you want, where you want and when you want and be HAPPY THE BOARD WAS CREATED to help you. Then rent the equivalent amount of points to cover your cash?

 

[Doctor P]

I believe that owners should have first priority for reservations period. Much of the concern would go away if any reservation during the home resort period had to have the member's name on the reservation and allow no changes after the seven month window is reached without cancelling the reservation and rebooking. This would not prevent renting, would not prevent peak weeks from being reserved, and would be easy to manage.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Doctor P
I believe that owners should have first priority for reservations period. Much of the concern would go away if any reservation during the home resort period had to have the member's name on the reservation and allow no changes after the seven month window is reached without cancelling the reservation and rebooking. This would not prevent renting, would not prevent peak weeks from being reserved, and would be easy to manage.

Maybe I don't quite understand your proposal. I don't see how it would eliminate the concern. The member could just leave his/her name on the reservation along with those of the renters. Anyone whose name is on the reservation can check in.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
ean, how many times have you started a thread telling DVC owners that everyone should be charging more money for their rentals because you need a greater return on your investment?

Never, I think you have me confused with Nuthut. I've never said we should charge more, only what I feel it is worth to me. And I've NEVER started a thread on this subject to my knowledge. I'll accept your apology once you search the board.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Doctor P
I believe that owners should have first priority for reservations period. Much of the concern would go away if any reservation during the home resort period had to have the member's name on the reservation and allow no changes after the seven month window is reached without cancelling the reservation and rebooking. This would not prevent renting, would not prevent peak weeks from being reserved, and would be easy to manage.

But it's not legal within the system for this limitation.

 

[Doctor P]

With due respect, there is often discussion of what is legal and not legal here. I will stand on my answer, acknowledge that it is not in the current documents, but also assert that such a system could be put into place in a straightforward fashion and within the context of what is allowed in the declarations. While it is possible I may be wrong, I am reasonably confident of the statements I have made in the past (DVD does not have to have the same restrictions as other owners on renting and the fact that there are accepted criteria for determining whether an activity is a commercial activity or not). Having passed many exams on these very topics and batted some of these exact issues around as documents have been challenged in the past in other circumstances, I will stand by my statements. In my opinion, the system is broken, but certainly not irreparably and, I will admit, that it is a few rotten eggs taking advantage of the system that have my ire up a bit.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Doctor P
With due respect, there is often discussion of what is legal and not legal here. I will stand on my answer, acknowledge that it is not in the current documents, but also assert that such a system could be put into place in a straightforward fashion and within the context of what is allowed in the declarations. While it is possible I may be wrong, I am reasonably confident of the statements I have made in the past (DVD does not have to have the same restrictions as other owners on renting and the fact that there are accepted criteria for determining whether an activity is a commercial activity or not). Having passed many exams on these very topics and batted some of these exact issues around as documents have been challenged in the past in other circumstances, I will stand by my statements. In my opinion, the system is broken, but certainly not irreparably and, I will admit, that it is a few rotten eggs taking advantage of the system that have my ire up a bit.

There is no way under the current system to restrict usage to members only, period. It would be in total violation of the POS. Also, there are no accepted criteria on what is commercial activity, only a vague statement suggesting that criteria may be set later. Then it would remain open as to whether those criteria were legal. And yes, DVC will be held to the same standards.

 

[luvindisneyworld]

Originally posted by jade1
You solved your own problem.
" It Makes Me So Mad
It makes me so mad when DVC members reserve a room and then try to rent it out during high demand times.There is a thread over on the rent board where they have a studio for rent during MH.
Dont get me wrong i rent my points out to only 1 person but they tell me what dates they need and then i make the reservation.I dont hold a room during peak times when people are on the waitlist for those times.

It just makes me so upset.I am on the waitlist for MH and then you see a post like that."

Why dont you pay cash so you get exactly what you want, where you want and when you want and be HAPPY THE BOARD WAS CREATED to help you. Then rent the equivalent amount of points to cover your cash?

What and pay 13.00 a point.I think not.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Dean
{snip}
Also, there are no accepted criteria on what is commercial activity, only a vague statement suggesting that criteria may be set later. Then it would remain open as to whether those criteria were legal. And yes, DVC will be held to the same standards.

....In your opinion. These are not facts and not consistent with others interpretation of the POS. We do not know that DVC would be held to the same standards. However, thank you for sharing your knowledgable opinion.

Originally posted by Doctor P
{snip}
DVD does not have to have the same restrictions as other owners on renting and the fact that there are accepted criteria for determining whether an activity is a commercial activity or not). Having passed many exams on these very topics and batted some of these exact issues around as documents have been challenged in the past in other circumstances, I will stand by my statements. In my opinion, the system is broken, but certainly not irreparably and, I will admit, that it is a few rotten eggs taking advantage of the system that have my ire up a bit.

Thank you for sharing your information, and a reference to your exams on these issues. While I certainly haven't taken exams on these issue, I would agree with your assessment. Thanks for sharing.