It Looks Like the Death Numbers are Being Inflated

[BuckeyeBama]

This exactly! They did not die that day from cancer. It is a Covid death! Not sure what people don't understand.

Cognitive dissonance is a thing.

 

[morgan98]

It's white collar vs blue. One can work from home. One is bordering financial ruin being told to shut up and lose everything.

This is not true. There are plenty of "white collar" people suffering through furloughs, lay-offs and pay cuts in all of this. Just because you can set up your office and work from home, does not mean the company you are working for doesn't have clients pull work or pay slower or delay start of projects. This had a broad impact across the economic spectrum of people. My neighbor a cardiologist and his neighbor a dentist have both been home for more than a month. Their office staff is out of work too.

 

[sam_gordon]

No it's not. Cause of death is cause of death. Period. A bad heart did not cause the shark attack. If you die from Covid-19, you die from Covid-19.

But what if the person has a heart attack, and before that actually kills them, the shark shows up and eats them?

 

[BuckeyeBama]

This is not true. There are plenty of "white collar" people suffering through furloughs, lay-offs and pay cuts in all of this. Just because you can set up your office and work from home, does not mean the company you are working for doesn't have clients pull work or pay slower or delay start of projects. This had a broad impact across the economic spectrum of people. My neighbor a cardiologist and his neighbor a dentist have both been home for more than a month. Their office staff is out of work too.

While this is true, it is disproportionately impacting those lowest on the socioeconomic ladder. That is both in lives lost and in jobs lost. They are stuck between a rock and hard place right now. Stay home and pray for unemployment or go to work and put themselves and their families at risk.

 

[CarolAnn856]

It's white collar vs blue. One can work from home. One is bordering financial ruin being told to shut up and lose everything.

Nothing in your statement is accurate. There are blue collar workers who are working. There are white collar workers who are laid off. And nobody is telling anyone to shut up and lose everything.

So we're stuck between knowing that shut-downs will absolutely save lives (and not just COVID-19 sufferers, but many others, too) and knowing that many can't afford not go to work. Our hearts are breaking for them, so we're rolling up our sleeves and volunteering, collecting food, donating to causes, sewing masks, and so much more.

Not that other aren't, obviously people from all parts of the spectrum are doing the same. But don't dare accuse anyone who knows that a measured approach to reopening is the only right way to do this is in any way sitting back and just expecting others to shut up and lose everything.

 

[kdonnel]

But what if the person has a heart attack, and before that actually kills them, the shark shows up and eats them?

My wife used to teach baby sitting classes for the Red Cross and would be presented with similar what if scenarios.

What if there is a burglar outside and the house is on fire?

 

[MATTERHORN]

My wife used to teach baby sitting classes for the Red Cross and would be presented with similar what if scenarios.

What if there is a burglar outside and the house is on fire?

Well if I stayed inside, fire would be my cause of death. If I went outside, and the burglar physically killed me, murder would be my cause of death! Same thing for Covid.

But I think I'd take my chances on the burglar and leave my fiery house with the biggest knife I had and some baseball bats!

 

[MATTERHORN]

It's white collar vs blue. One can work from home. One is bordering financial ruin being told to shut up and lose everything.

It's not even close to that cut and dry. But they'd lose everything anyway if they died from this, so?

 

[cabanafrau]

Well if I stayed inside, fire would be my cause of death. If I went outside, and the burglar physically killed me, murder would be my cause of death! Same thing for Covid.

But I think I'd take my chances on the burglar and leave my fiery house with the biggest knife I had and some baseball bats!

Homicide or accidental death are the manner of death that would be assigned by a medical examiner. The cause of death would be determined according to whatever system or organ of the body that failed and led to death.

 

[MATTERHORN]

Homicide or accidental death are the manner of death that would be assigned by a medical examiner. The cause of death would be determined according to whatever system or organ of the body that failed and led to death.

Sorry, didn't get technical! Still doesn't change the point. If you die of Covid, you die of Covid, not your underlying conditions. If I get murdered tomorrow, no one will say I died from asthma.

 

[mousefan73]

I’m not sure if death figures are purposely being inflated but I think there needs to be a lot more data done to determine true cause of death.
I just saw an interesting report on German television.
The entire city of Hamburg did autopies on all deaths that were Covid related. The best quote was from the doctor that said „ We need to really differentiate between deaths WITH Covid and deaths BY Covid”. Particularly in the older groups. He said bluntly “ I hate to say this but many people that died with covid were half dead”’ and that Covid was basically the nail in the coffin.
This was even the case in younger patients due to cancer and other terminal disease.

One of the main messages of this news segment was that Autopsies need to be done on many that have passed with this. As we then learn a lot more.

The doctor also said that there are unfortunately many cases where you have completely healthy people who die 100% from this virus. And that’s why it’s good still to have an autopsy to confirm this. He also noted that the German healthcare has learned from autopsies that Covid also causes people blood clots and death without the lung issues. This helps the medical community decide on what treatment implement as respiratory treatment might not be the life saving treatment but instead blood thinners.

when I saw this segment immediately I thought about that 5 year old Girl currently on People. The article made it be a tragic Covid story. But the child actually also had meningitis. I’m not the medical expert here not claim to know her whole story. But for me it’s a case of needing to figure out did she pass “by” or “ with” Covid ?? .

 

[sam_gordon]

Sorry, didn't get technical! Still doesn't change the point. If you die of Covid, you die of Covid, not your underlying conditions. If I get murdered tomorrow, no one will say I died from asthma.

But presumably, just because you have Covid doesn't automatically mean it's the cause of death. Look at all of those who are asymptomatic. If one of them has a heart attack, does the fact they have COVID mean that should be the cause of death?

 

[mousefan73]

But presumably, just because you have Covid doesn't automatically mean it's the cause of death. Look at all of those who are asymptomatic. If one of them has a heart attack, does the fact they have COVID mean that should be the cause of death?

See my post above. In Germany they have determined many deaths where a patient was positive of Covid or even had mild symptoms died from other issues

 

[cabanafrau]

Sorry, didn't get technical! Still doesn't change the point. If you die of Covid, you die of Covid, not your underlying conditions. If I get murdered tomorrow, no one will say I died from asthma.

The point of the technicalities wasn't at all to be clever or rude. The point goes back to the original post in the thread, in which I believe OP is getting inaccurate information. I say that as someone who lives in MI, as I believe OP does, and as someone who works in an environment that routinely involves what is stated on death certificates, usually but not always involving the autopsy reports that are generated for some of them. General rule of thumb here in the SE MI area is death certificates are ordinarily expected in about six weeks under normal business conditions. It's obviously been a minute since hospitals, pathology departments, medical examiners, county clerk offices, etc. have been operating under normal business conditions to get that reporting done and get the clerical function of issuing the certificates taken care of.

Second problem is that death certificates wouldn't list covid, cancer, diabetes, etc. as cause of death. That is assigned according to the system of the body that failed causing death as determined by an attending physician or pathologist. Next is listed the manner of death -- natural causes, homicide, suicide, accidental or undetermined. Assigning those technicalities on a death certificate is a big deal because it's a legal matter.

I think this whole discussion needs a good dose of technicality to throw cold water on the idea that the numbers are being inflated via the insertion of covid on death certificates. They may very be being inflated, or possibly under reported as well. I don't know. I'm simply suggesting that anecdotal evidence attributing it to death certificates seems unlikely at this point.

 

[MATTERHORN]

The point of the technicalities wasn't at all to be clever or rude. The point goes back to the original post in the thread, in which I believe OP is getting inaccurate information. I say that as someone who lives in MI, as I believe OP does, and as someone who works in an environment that routinely involves what is stated on death certificates, usually but not always involving the autopsy reports that are generated for some of them. General rule of thumb here in the SE MI area is death certificates are ordinarily expected in about six weeks under normal business conditions. It's obviously been a minute since hospitals, pathology departments, medical examiners, county clerk offices, etc. have been operating under normal business conditions to get that reporting done and get the clerical function of issuing the certificates taken care of.

Second problem is that death certificates wouldn't list covid, cancer, diabetes, etc. as cause of death. That is assigned according to the system of the body that failed causing death as determined by an attending physician or pathologist. Next is listed the manner of death -- natural causes, homicide, suicide, accidental or undetermined. Assigning those technicalities on a death certificate is a big deal because it's a legal matter.

I think this whole discussion needs a good dose of technicality to throw cold water on the idea that the numbers are being inflated via the insertion of covid on death certificates. They may very be being inflated, or possibly under reported as well. I don't know. I'm simply suggesting that anecdotal evidence attributing it to death certificates seems unlikely at this point.

Agreed and well said. Sorry, I also did not mean to come off snarky.

 

[MATTERHORN]

But presumably, just because you have Covid doesn't automatically mean it's the cause of death. Look at all of those who are asymptomatic. If one of them has a heart attack, does the fact they have COVID mean that should be the cause of death?

Possibly. I suppose it depends on what effect that may have had on their heart or breathing. In some cases, we may never know I suppose. But I do think this is a VERY small percentage of the cases so I don't think this means numbers are THAT inflated.

 

[jodifla]

here's what I know: In my town, the obituary pages are overflowing. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

here's what I know: In my town, the obituary pages are overflowing. I've never seen anything like it.

Death rates are up all over the world. They are higher than they should be even with the deaths categorized as COVID related included in the stats.

 

[sam_gordon]

Possibly. I suppose it depends on what effect that may have had on their heart or breathing. In some cases, we may never know I suppose. But I do think this is a VERY small percentage of the cases so I don't think this means numbers are THAT inflated.

I personally find it hard to believe that doctors are intentionally falsifying death certificates. Do I think the certificates could be wrong? Sure. But it probably all evens out.

 

[Disneychick75]

If a person has a heart condition or cancer, but goes swimming in the ocean and dies from a shark attack, the primary cause of death is the shark attack. Underlying conditions or other reasons don't matter!

Same thing applies for Covid.

Problem is some doctors and nurses are basically saying that a person with a bad heart swam in the ocean and saw a shark fin 100 yards away. The person had a heart attack and died. The doctor is told he must list shark attack as the cause of death even though the shark never attacked the person. It was there but was not the cause of death.