Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate?

[castleview]

Yes, I taught for about 15 years.

Good to know. As for my statement, yeah I guess it was harsh. But if you follow the money, youll see that CC is bring driven by non educators bent on undermining teachers who are just funneling tax payer dollars into their private hands at the expense of my kids' educations. I could care less about their health.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

OP here everyone. Typing from my I-phone so forgive me any mistakes. As some have eluded to, yes I am stressed. I apologize for confusing everyone by throwing out every example that popped into my head after i mentioned the original - didnt mean to jumble them together. My son has been struggling with math this year and while he does well on the chapter tests, getting to that point is sheer torture and he is starting to hate math. His school has had three curriculums since he was in kindergarten and I don't think he was ever given a good foundation. I can't tell you how many methods I've seen that made me ask "why are they doing it that way?". Instead of teaching the "classic" way, they were taught the latest round-about way thàt did not strengthen the original concept. Plus, it's very "jumpy", if you will. Even one of his teachers said that "the theory was to introduce kids to future concepts, but without the background we are just making them feel like they that aren't too smart". It's very frustrating when I'm trying to do my part at hone when there doesn't seem to be a particular ladder they are working up.

First of all, as a former teacher, thank you for being an involved parent who strives to help your child at home. That goes a very long way and says a lot about you as a parent and person. Second of all, I'm so sorry your son is struggling. I hated math growing up. Gosh, I actually remember telling my parents I was going to drop out of school in third grade because I couldn't grasp long division. Anyway, I do understand what your son is going through. I also remember how frustrating it was trying to have my mother (who also had taught math) try and explain things to me at home. Sometimes, parents just aren't the best teachers for their children. Have you considered getting your son some extra help? The fact that he is able to get it when test time rolls around lets you know that he is on grade level and there is likely not any sort of disability there. He's just struggling to grasp it at the point it is being taught and there is absolutely no shame in that. You could go to a tutoring place like Mathnasium or Sylvan, or you could look into hiring a tutor. I know plenty of SAHMs who were once math teachers and now tutor in the evenings. And, of course, your son's teacher is also a resource if you think he/she would be able to help get through to your son with just a bit more time. Personally, I was always a fan of a tutor who is not the teacher just because he or she can present the information in a different way that perhaps your son hasn't been exposed to. No matter what you decide, try to take a deep breath and just relax. You are doing a great job just by being involved.

 

[Colleen27]

There really aren't many math problems in real life that don't involve words, are there? Most math is done to problem solve, which involves a problem, which involves a description of said problem.

True, but few involve words at/near the limit of one's vocabulary, and even fewer require responses phrased in sentence form with explanations of the reasoning used (both of which are standard requirements in 3rd/4th grade math around here). I'm not saying word problems should be thrown out, but we learned just fine with problems about Bobby's apples and Jane's cookies rather than foreign and domestic post. Not everything needs to be a reading and vocab lesson. Let math just be math.

 

[Wendy31]

First, was there more to the problem than you originally posted? Were the students instructed to use estimation or rounding to figure out the problem?

Otherwise, it's a simple subtraction problem:

89 (total letters) - 54 (foreign letters) = 35 (domestic letters)

Even if the student lines the problem up, there is no borrowing:

89
54

9 - 4 = 5 & 8 -5 = 3

And, if they were instructed to estimate by rounding, then 90 - 50 = 40.

I do think story problems & word problems are important in math, because, in our every day lives, that's how we encounter math problems.

The only thing I possibly see being an issue in this particular problem for third graders is the word "domestically."

However, the teacher may have discussed the word w/ the class previously - in a story they're reading in literature or something they've discussed in history or social studies. Domestic may be one of their spelling or vocabulary words. The teacher may be doing an entire "cross curriculum" study of our postal system. Or, it may just be a word that showed up in the math text book. Most teachers take a minute to point out words that may be unfamiliar to their students - "Okay, class, before you start, let's look at problem #4 for a minute. Can anyone tell me what 'domestically' means?"

 

[Hrhpd]

The concept is fine, but would a third grader get the vocab?:

"The U.S. Postal Service sends out 89 letters, 54 of which are to foreign countries. How many are sent domestically?"

Please let me know if this would be typical or if it confirms my theory that any author of the Common Core should be put to sleep.

Our third graders would get the vocab. And those that didn't are very proficient in using a dictionary or going to dictionary.com.

So, totally appropriate and nobody needs to be put to sleep

 

[Hrhpd]

I'm okay with the concept of rounding off and estimating (or maybe I've just accepted that estimation and mental math in a horizontal line are just around for a few years…drifting off, sorry). But the presentation I think is indicative of the cluelessness of Common Core creators. They've ignored the who building up philosophy in math and have the kids doing all these whacky techniques without developing their math facts.

Not sure how 89 - 54 = x is a wacky technique.

 

[MSLRAC]

Our third graders would get the vocab. And those that didn't are very proficient in using a dictionary or going to dictionary.com.

So, totally appropriate and nobody needs to be put to sleep

Honestly, once we got past the vocab, my DS (1st grade) got it and quickly solved it. His class has been doing similar problems for weeks. Granted they are written on a 1st grade level but they're basic 2 digit addition and subtraction problems.

 

[castleview]

First of all, as a former teacher, thank you for being an involved parent who strives to help your child at home. That goes a very long way and says a lot about you as a parent and person. Second of all, I'm so sorry your son is struggling. I hated math growing up. Gosh, I actually remember telling my parents I was going to drop out of school in third grade because I couldn't grasp long division. Anyway, I do understand what your son is going through. I also remember how frustrating it was trying to have my mother (who also had taught math) try and explain things to me at home. Sometimes, parents just aren't the best teachers for their children. Have you considered getting your son some extra help? The fact that he is able to get it when test time rolls around lets you know that he is on grade level and there is likely not any sort of disability there. He's just struggling to grasp it at the point it is being taught and there is absolutely no shame in that. You could go to a tutoring place like Mathnasium or Sylvan, or you could look into hiring a tutor. I know plenty of SAHMs who were once math teachers and now tutor in the evenings. And, of course, your son's teacher is also a resource if you think he/she would be able to help get through to your son with just a bit more time. Personally, I was always a fan of a tutor who is not the teacher just because he or she can present the information in a different way that perhaps your son hasn't been exposed to. No matter what you decide, try to take a deep breath and just relax. You are doing a great job just by being involved.

Thank you. I have spoken with the teacher about getting him intervention. The teacher thinks it's not that he can't master the concepts, it's just a slower process and focusing issue. I can truly believe the focus issue as I was much like that (my rambling first few posts might be evidence too ) My mom was a math teacher and she and I totally clashed on it.

That's your opinion. I would disagree. To me, the fact that your child seems to have made it to third grade unable to subtract, and yet you got the message that he was a good student, is pretty convincing evidence that your state needed new, more rigorous standards.

Wishing hardworking people, who have families, and friends dead is not OK. Looking back at your posts, I see that you're studying to be a nurse. I wouldn't dream of coming here and posting that I wished nurses were killed.

The standards are there, but the methods for reaching them are not the best. But thanks again for pointing out how out of touch edu-peneurs are.

Wow, that was a little rude castleview. It's obvious that you do not like CC and I suspect that your dislike and intolerance of it is obvious to your DS as well. The fact is, that is how they have to do it. You options are stop fighting it and learn it so you can properly help your son without the attitude or home school your kid so you can do it your way.

Sorry, I'm just calling it like I see it regarding this poster. It's obvious she has forgotten the reality of the classroom and the methods that work and has expectations she probably couldn't meet when she was teaching.

I do agree that I have to watch my intolerance for it around my son and try my best. My husband is a high school physics teacher and former engineer and finds these methods ridiculous and unnecessary. So while we go along with it while we have to, I see no problem letting the curriculum coordinator know what I think. Plus I'm quite sure CC will be gone in the next five years. Hopefully this testing era will too, but unfortunately my kids are in the thick of it. As for teaching it my way…well, most of the teachers are good with that for every parent because they can't stand the way they are now being told to teach.

Our third graders would get the vocab. And those that didn't are very proficient in using a dictionary or going to dictionary.com.

So, totally appropriate and nobody needs to be put to sleep

As I've mentioned here and there, this probably wouldn't have annoyed me so much if it wasn't one of many odd things. What do you teach if I may ask?

 

[castleview]

Not sure how 89 - 54 = x is a wacky technique.

If I had a scanner, I'd show you how they want the kids to break it down. It's not simply 89 over 54, but a series of 10 worthless steps.

 

[jrmasm]

If I had a scanner, I'd show you how they want the kids to break it down. It's not simply 89 over 54, but a series of 10 worthless steps.

Sounds like Everyday Math which sucks.

 

[castleview]

Sounds like Everyday Math which sucks.

I think you're right.

 

[jodifla]

OP here everyone. Typing from my I-phone so forgive me any mistakes. As some have eluded to, yes I am stressed. I apologize for confusing everyone by throwing out every example that popped into my head after i mentioned the original - didnt mean to jumble them together. My son has been struggling with math this year and while he does well on the chapter tests, getting to that point is sheer torture and he is starting to hate math. His school has had three curriculums since he was in kindergarten and I don't think he was ever given a good foundation. I can't tell you how many methods I've seen that made me ask "why are they doing it that way?". Instead of teaching the "classic" way, they were taught the latest round-about way thàt did not strengthen the original concept. Plus, it's very "jumpy", if you will. Even one of his teachers said that "the theory was to introduce kids to future concepts, but without the background we are just making them feel like they that aren't too smart". It's very frustrating when I'm trying to do my part at hone when there doesn't seem to be a particular ladder they are working up.

Yes, this is the BS of the Common Core curriculum they are shoving down kids -- and parents -- throats today. Is it CPM math? That's the crapola they are teaching at my son's school.

IT'S TERRIBLE and it's turning a multitude of kids off from math and school.

You are not alone. Google it and you'll find parents are taking measures both against Common Core and the various curriculum that allegedly support it.

The worst part is, in less than 5 years Common Core will be the latest failed educational fad and the kids in school will know less math than ever.

 

[jodifla]

If I had a scanner, I'd show you how they want the kids to break it down. It's not simply 89 over 54, but a series of 10 worthless steps.

Yep. Common Core Crapola!

 

[MSLRAC]

If I had a scanner, I'd show you how they want the kids to break it down. It's not simply 89 over 54, but a series of 10 worthless steps.

But that's the thing, it's multiple steps when they are learning. I get that, it took DS half a piece of paper to solve that problem. But once they get it, if they are taught it properly and truly grasp the concept, they can do the steps in their heads very quickly. It took DD just a few seconds to solve that problem.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

The standards are there, but the methods for reaching them are not the best. But thanks again for pointing out how out of touch edu-peneurs are.

So, in the past when you didn't like how math was taught, it was because the methods weren't the best. But now, when you don't like how math is taught, it's Common Core and the "edu-peneurs"?

Sorry, I'm just calling it like I see it regarding this poster. It's obvious she has forgotten the reality of the classroom and the methods that work and has expectations she probably couldn't meet when she was teaching.

You don't know anything about me, and how far or close I am to the classroom. If you want to ask you can, if you want to assume a million inaccurate things about me, go ahead. I'm not the one who comes out looking bad when you do that.

 

[jahber]

The problem I (and apparently only a few others) have with this problem is that it requires a student to look up a word to complete a math problem in 4th grade. A student could guess, but I don't put much stock in guessing what terms mean as a confidence builder in math. Math problems in elementary school should be written at *or below* the reading level of students. That's just common sense, isn't it? It's math, not social studies or language arts. Unless you're doing an integrated social studies unit, in which case this is an excellent question. Otherwise, I seriously question how this problem is superior to one that uses age-appropriate terms. Shouldn't we be designing our math problems to be the very best teaching examples possible?

A question like this would be tolerated by me once in a text, and then I would start writing my own math problems that didn't require a dictionary. But the problem here is that this is apparently a standard question. And my question is, what happens when advanced vocabulary such as this appears on the standardized test--when students absolutely do not have access to reference material? If it's not going to be tested, then why are students practicing with these types of problems? That would mean curriculum designers are writing frustrating problems for no reason.

Fwiw, I'm a former social studies and language arts teacher, took higher-level math classes at university, and homeschool my 1st and 4th graders.

 

[glammadiva]

The concept is fine, but would a third grader get the vocab?:

"The U.S. Postal Service sends out 89 letters, 54 of which are to foreign countries. How many are sent domestically?"

Please let me know if this would be typical or if it confirms my theory that any author of the Common Core should be put to sleep.

I agree with your common core comment! This program was written by idiots.

 

[leebee]

Sounds like Everyday Math which sucks.

I'll second that. Yes, it sounds like EDM, and yes, it sucks.
(Although CMP and CMP2 are just as bad...)

 

[castleview]

But that's the thing, it's multiple steps when they are learning. I get that, it took DS half a piece of paper to solve that problem. But once they get it, if they are taught it properly and truly grasp the concept, they can do the steps in their heads very quickly. It took DD just a few seconds to solve that problem.

If they were worthy steps, I'd be fine with it. But certain steps are far more confusing that the entire concept. If it were working, that would be great. Unfortunately, it's just turning my kid off and making him shut down. This is new to me. I have two older girls who do well in math and they were not doing the same curriculum at his age.

 

[jodifla]

The problem I (and apparently only a few others) have with this problem is that it requires a student to look up a word to complete a math problem in 4th grade. A student could guess, but I don't put much stock in guessing what terms mean as a confidence builder in math. Math problems in elementary school should be written at *or below* the reading level of students. That's just common sense, isn't it? It's math, not social studies or language arts. Unless you're doing an integrated social studies unit, in which case this is an excellent question. Otherwise, I seriously question how this problem is superior to one that uses age-appropriate terms. Shouldn't we be designing our math problems to be the very best teaching examples possible?

A question like this would be tolerated by me once in a text, and then I would start writing my own math problems that didn't require a dictionary. But the problem here is that this is apparently a standard question. And my question is, what happens when advanced vocabulary such as this appears on the standardized test--when students absolutely do not have access to reference material? If it's not going to be tested, then why are students practicing with these types of problems? That would mean curriculum designers are writing frustrating problems for no reason.

Fwiw, I'm a former social studies and language arts teacher, took higher-level math classes at university, and homeschool my 1st and 4th graders.

Yes, it makes every lesson intensely verbal. So if you are weak verbally but good at math calculation, now you are struggling in reading AND math, with almost no way to catch up. It's robbed a lot of kids of their most successful classes.

It's going to be good for a subset of kids, and leave others way, way, way behind. r

It was just 5 years ago that Everyday Math was the godsend for American students, and now that's being trashcanned because a "spiral" curriculum is a disaster for a lot of learners.