Is there such a thing as a non-evangelical Christian church?

[Saxsoon]

I am sorry I didn't respond sooner Jenny. Thanks for the response.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jenny, this is all so fascinating to me! I have been reading with interest because I don't know any Christians that don't believe that the Jewish people were waiting for a Savior and obviously, we all believe that Jesus fits the promise in the Old Testament.
I was on a thread some time ago where I tried to explain why Christianity had roots in Judeaism and I got blasted right before it closed (maybe you remember), so I've shyed away a little. However, I love the discussion. So, I didn't want to leave your last post unanswered by a Christian. I went searching for a lineage explaination. http://www.abecedarian.org/Pages/Lineage.htm
Check this out.

I won't blast you LOL....I understand why CHristians disagree,I'm just showing why Jews believe the way they do..Jews have determined Lineage the same way for 5000 years and they will not change Jewish law so that Jesus can fit Christian criteria..You link states that in the first century if a Jew adopted a child his lineage changed.....That's simply not true... There is no such thing as adoptive lineage under Jewish Law... I understand that you have posted a CHristian source stating that they do but you will not find any Jewish source stating that adoptive lineage is or ever has been accepted..It's simply not done.. If a Levi is adopted by a Cohen, the child stays a Cohen and so on and so on...

The link also states that Mary's lineage is given and that babies get their lineage by both parents....That's simply not true under Jewish law..Lineage is determined by the biological father and it has been that way since the book of Numbers determined that this is how it would be done... This is exactly how Jews determined the priesthood and Messiahship. It passed from biological son to biological son...A fact that schockingly has been supported by geneological studied of current day Kohens

Here is an article on some of the studies

Jewish Genes & Genealogy
Kohen = Cohen are the priestly family of the Jewish people. The Torah (the Bible) describes the annointment of Aharon, the brother of Moses, as the first High Priest (Kohen Gadol). The books of Exodus and Leviticus describe the responsibilities of the Kohanim, which include the Temple service, blessing of the people and spiritual healing. The Kohanim are a family of the Tribe of Levi.

The office of Cohen was granted to Aharon and his sons and to all their male progeny for all generations. The Torah states a number of times that the priesthood is an eternal covenant with the descendants of Aharon, the first Kohen, never to be lost.

Molecular geneticists have recently discovered the “Cohen Modal Haplotype” which is a DNA signature consisting of specific genetic markers on the Y chromosome of the Cohens. This indicates a direct patrilineal descent of present day Kohanim from a single ancient ancestor, precisely as described in the Torah.

Explanations and implications are quoted as follows:

“The simplest, most straightforward explanation is that these men have the Y chromosome of Aharon. The study suggests that a 3,000-year-old tradition is correct, and has a biological counterpart.”

Dr. Karl Skorecki, New York Times, January 7, 1997.

“It’s a beautiful example of how father to son transmission of two things, one genetic, one cultural, gives you the same picture.”

Prof. Michael Hammer, New York Times, January 7, 1997.

“For more than 90 percent of the Cohens to share the same genetic markers after such a period of time is a testament to the devotion of the wives of the Cohens over the years. Even a low rate of infidelity would have dramatically lowered the percentage.”

Dr. David Goldstein, Oxford University, Science News, October 3, 1998.

“Like first experiencing the Western Wall in Jerusalem, it’s to me an extraordinary moving and intense experience of history and sacred history coming together. I think the Y chromosome research does the same thing genetically. It is a tangible embodied moment of connection to our past.”

L. Dorfman, San Francisco State University, Science News, October 3, 1998.

The DNA Chain of Tradition

Jewish Genes - DNA Evidence

Families and Family Trees

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Sooooo... did Fresh Tressa ever decide on a church to try? I tried reading the whole thread but could not chase all the rabbits. FWIW, I still stand by my earlier assertion that all of Christianity is evangelical. It just makes me sad that some outside the Christian faith have to view an invitation as some sort of trap. The Christian faith -nor any faith -should be that way

OT: Jenny, I enjoy reading your unique point of view. You are passionate about who you are and what you believe. That is a breath of fresh air IMO. Even though your interpretations vary from everything I have been taught and have read from a spectrum of scholars and assorted sources (including at least one Orthodox rabbi, I might add), I do appreciate what you are saying.

 

[JennyMominRI]

OT: Jenny, I enjoy reading your unique point of view. You are passionate about who you are and what you believe. That is a breath of fresh air IMO. Even though your interpretations vary from everything I have been taught and have read from a spectrum of scholars and assorted sources (including at least one Orthodox rabbi, I might add), I do appreciate what you are saying.

What would your Orthodox Rabbi disagree with? I'm curious because I almost always post links from Orthodox web-sites stating standard Orthodox Theology


edited to add.

II ususally post info from here..Judaism 101
http://www.jewfaq.org/

Here is the cover statement

Welcome
Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of Judaism, covering Jewish beliefs, people, places, things, language, scripture, holidays, practices and customs. My goal is to make freely available a wide variety of basic, general information about Judaism, written from a traditional perspective in plain English. This web site has grown continually for more than 10 years and continues to be updated periodically.

Everything in this web site is free to use or distribute in any way, with three conditions: 1) if you use text, graphics or sound from this site, please credit this site; 2) do not redistribute this information for profit; 3) do not "mirror" this site or copy pages from this site for use on other web sites. For further details, please see my copyright page.

The information in this site is written predominantly from the Orthodox viewpoint, because I believe that is the starting point for any inquiry into Judaism. As recently as 200 years ago, this was the only Judaism, and it still is the only Judaism in many parts of the world. Be aware, however, that many Jews do not follow all of the traditions described here, or in the precise form described here. The Conservative movement believes that these laws and traditions can change to suit the times, and Reform/Liberal/Progressive movements believe that individuals can make choices about what traditions to follow. However, what I present here is the starting point, the traditions that are being changed or chosen. On some pages, I have identified variations in practice or belief in other movements.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jenny, this is all so fascinating to me! I have been reading with interest because I don't know any Christians that don't believe that the Jewish people were waiting for a Savior :

I wanted to add one thing to this... I think that for Christians a Messiah = a Savior...Christians then hear that Jews are awaiting a Messiah(true) and assume that to Jews Messiah also = savior when it really doesn't..Yes Jewish and Christian theology both involve a Messiah.. We just differ on what a Messiah's job is..I guess basically your messiah does more than ours,LOL... We share some prophecies(and differ on others)....Return of Jews to Israel,rebulding the Temple etc.. To Christians he will do more....He will bring you eternal salvation ... To us his job description ends before the point of Salvation

 

[MzDiz]

I think that a lot of atheists are good people, that have just not been educated or educated properly in religion

Whoa, wait a second here. I've had plenty of religious education and I still don't believe. Telling me that god exists and loves me is like telling me there's a hippo in my living room. You can show me books that say so, have me talk to people who believe likewise, show me entire countries that have been founded on there being a hippo in my living room, but when it comes down to it, I just don't see the darn hippo. Going to college for hippo viewing isn't going to make me see that hippo.
On the other hand, if I believe that there might be a hippo, and everyone around me is claiming the hippo is doing amazing things in my living room, for the sake of not feeling left out I just might say that I see it. In fact, with time, I might truly believe it. The mind is a wonderous thing, you know. The placebo effect, and what not.
Who's right?

 

[JennyMominRI]

Whoa, wait a second here. I've had plenty of religious education and I still don't believe. Telling me that god exists and loves me is like telling me there's a hippo in my living room. You can show me books that say so, have me talk to people who believe likewise, show me entire countries that have been founded on there being a hippo in my living room, but when it comes down to it, I just don't see the darn hippo. Going to college for hippo viewing isn't going to make me see that hippo.
On the other hand, if I believe that there might be a hippo, and everyone around me is claiming the hippo is doing amazing things in my living room, for the sake of not feeling left out I just might say that I see it. In fact, with time, I might truly believe it. The mind is a wonderous thing, you know. The placebo effect, and what not.
Who's right?

I once had a Hippo in my living room...Did you ever watch the New Zoo Revue?

 

[MzDiz]

I once had a Hippo in my living room...Did you ever watch the New Zoo Revue?

If that hippo were in my living room, I'd quit drinking. I swear it!

 

[JennyMominRI]

If that hippo were in my living room, I'd quit drinking. I swear it!

No,No, if you came to God he could heal you of drinking

 

[goofy's friends]

So, Jenny, then are you still waiting for the Messiah? I'm not as versed on the history as you are, so I have to look stuff up. But, I have always been taught that Messiah means "Annointed One" and that Jesus fits all the prophesies. http://www.answers.com/topic/messiah I guess it just boils down to belief. I believe that He does fit the criteria and that God allowed for Him to match the lineage through both Mother and father, while at the same time being God's Son. To me, He made sure to cover all his bases, so to speak! At the time the N.T. was written many Jewish people believed as well.

 

[JennyMominRI]

So, Jenny, then are you still waiting for the Messiah? I'm not as versed on the history as you are, so I have to look stuff up. But, I have always been taught that Messiah means "Annointed One" and that Jesus fits all the prophesies. http://www.answers.com/topic/messiah I guess it just boils down to belief. I believe that He does fit the criteria and that God allowed for Him to match the lineage through both Mother and father, while at the same time being God's Son. To me, He made sure to cover all his bases, so to speak! At the time the N.T. was written many Jewish people believed as well.

Yes,Jews are waiting for the messah
Of course you believe he fits the criteria...That's why you are a Christian
No worries.
I believe there are dfferent religions on this planet for a reason

 

[goofy's friends]

Yes,Jews are waiting for the messah
Of course you believe he fits the criteria...That's why you are a Christian
No worries.
I believe there are dfferent religions on this planet for a reason

Great discussion

 

[my4kids]

I think that a lot of atheists are good people, that have just not been educated or educated properly in religion

I bolded 2 phrases that I think a few might have missed.

'I think" as in -"this is my opinion, and it is quite OK if it is not yours."

and "properly" as in the faith needs to come straight from the parents mouth.
My kids all go to Sunday school, but if I did not reveiw what they were learning and express my own feelings about my faith, and just assumed that what their Sunday School teacher was teaching was sinking in...I know that they would let most of it go in one ear and out the other. Again, this is my opinion.

By the way, your looking for that hippo in you living room with your eyes and not your heart.

 

[JennyMominRI]

By the way, your looking for that hippo in you living room with your eyes and not your heart.

How do you know that though? Do you assume that if she were truly searching with an open heart that she would become a Christian?

 

[mickeyfan2]

I believe there are dfferent religions on this planet for a reason

I agree.

 

[RadioNate]

How do you know that though? Do you assume that if she were truly searching with an open heart that she would become a Christian?

my4kids can obviously correct me but that is what I'm interpertering her words to mean.

I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I sat in Church every sunday. My parents and grandparents all have discussed their belief Christianity with me. It still makes NO sense to me. I can't explain it except to say that my whole self is screaming out that something is wrong.

When I really look with my heart, I feel that Judaism makes sense for me. Something about it seems right. It seems peaceful, comfortable, like home.

I haven't started the offical conversion process but I have started learning more through the local JCC. It has ignited a firestorm w/in my family so I think that is why I've been extra sensitive to some of this stuff.

One religion doesn't make since for a lot of people. I get frustrated by the "Christianity made me so happy and I want you to be that happy so you should be Christian" arguement. For 30 years I did Christianity and it didn't make me happy. I never got this feeling. I felt more like this It is insulting when people say you just weren't doing it right. Or you weren't educated properly because if you were you would have loved it.

I still don't know what my religious future holds but I'm glad I'm able to explore completely different faiths.

 

[aquinas]

I bolded 2 phrases that I think a few might have missed.

'I think" as in -"this is my opinion, and it is quite OK if it is not yours."

and "properly" as in the faith needs to come straight from the parents mouth.
My kids all go to Sunday school, but if I did not reveiw what they were learning and express my own feelings about my faith, and just assumed that what their Sunday School teacher was teaching was sinking in...I know that they would let most of it go in one ear and out the other. Again, this is my opinion.

By the way, your looking for that hippo in you living room with your eyes and not your heart.

I think you would be careful to use the word "properly". You and I for example would disagree that you are "properly" educating your children on the doctrine of grace.

I believe one could be trained "properly" on all aspects of Christianity and still reject God. I do not understand this personally but I do think you will find that some atheist especially the ones that are in the academic world and debate God with Christians are more versed in the Bible than most Christians that you and I know.

Your last line said it perfectly. You can have all the head knowledge but if you do not have heart knowledge then that is where the rejection of God takes place.

 

[newman7501]

I work with an atheist and we have had great discussions about religion. One that really stays fresh in my mind was her telling me why she had such a hard time believing. She was a science major in college and says she has a hard time believing in something she can not see right in front of her(and she knocked on the table). I said that is where faith comes in, you believe in what you can not see. Plus to me it is not about religion but my personal relationship with God. In many ways we also have similar lives and she also wonders why I don't struggle with the same things she struggles with or worry about the same things she worries about. Again, this is where my faith carries me through. I'm sure many would say that it is blind faith, but it gives me such a peace that really surpasses my own understanding. You know I have not "educated" her on Christianity but I do share how I feel personally. I don't tell her she has to feel that way too and I think that is why we are good friends and we can openly share our feelings and beliefs and non beliefs. I think if more people really tried to understand why other people felt the way they do, it would really lead to more of an opportunity to share our beliefs with out looking like we were trying to get another notch in our belts for Christ and then it is their choice to make, not our choice to make for them.

 

[my4kids]

my4kids can obviously correct me but that is what I'm interpertering her words to mean.

I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I sat in Church every sunday. My parents and grandparents all have discussed their belief Christianity with me. It still makes NO sense to me. I can't explain it except to say that my whole self is screaming out that something is wrong.

When I really look with my heart, I feel that Judaism makes sense for me. Something about it seems right. It seems peaceful, comfortable, like home.

I haven't started the offical conversion process but I have started learning more through the local JCC. It has ignited a firestorm w/in my family so I think that is why I've been extra sensitive to some of this stuff.

One religion doesn't make since for a lot of people. I get frustrated by the "Christianity made me so happy and I want you to be that happy so you should be Christian" arguement. For 30 years I did Christianity and it didn't make me happy. I never got this feeling. I felt more like this It is insulting when people say you just weren't doing it right. Or you weren't educated properly because if you were you would have loved it.

I still don't know what my religious future holds but I'm glad I'm able to explore completely different faiths.

Please don't assume that I am saying that one has to stay the religion they were taught or else they were not educated properly. You still worship a good and higher power than yourself, you are not worshipping worldly things (I assume). I was in no way stating that someone has to be Christian to be educated in religion. I think in my non poetic way , I am saying that they were taught faith. How to know or feel there is a higher power at work.

Anyway, about the post about the atheist who can't believe what she can't see. I personally am always so amazed when someone states this. I just can't imagine thinking that all life and oceans and mountains just "got here" I understand evolution and scientific facts. But what put the thing here that we evolved from? and then it always goes back to the "big bang" theory. Thats fine, I can buy that too, but what caused the big bang? Not trying to preach, but it just seems obvious to me there is something greater than at work. i can't imagine denying there is ANY higher power.

 

[cardaway]

I bolded 2 phrases that I think a few might have missed.

'I think" as in -"this is my opinion, and it is quite OK if it is not yours."

and "properly" as in the faith needs to come straight from the parents mouth.
My kids all go to Sunday school, but if I did not reveiw what they were learning and express my own feelings about my faith, and just assumed that what their Sunday School teacher was teaching was sinking in...I know that they would let most of it go in one ear and out the other. Again, this is my opinion.

By the way, your looking for that hippo in you living room with your eyes and not your heart.

Well I you opinion is rather offensive, and IMO, you should be ashamed of yourself.

It's obvious what you are implying and it's pretty damn rude.