Is 'The Magic' Expensive?

[stlphil]

Hi, I'm new to this board (which I find really fascinating), and this thread is particularly interesting.

At first I was wondering about all this Car # business, but now that I think I have figured it out, sadly I find myself in Car #3.

In an earlier post, thedscoop was wondering about the differences between the Car #1 vs. Car #3 folks since they are so similar in many ways. As a newcomer, I certainly don't have pretend to have an answer, but possibly a little bit of light. Many (most) of the posters on this board view matters from a totally WDW centric point of view, while others seem to have more of a Disneyland background and focus. It may be that those with more of a DL focus also tend to be likely to be in Car #3. This seems reasonable to me, as it is hard for me to believe that anyone who loves Disney could walk down Main Street at DL and make the right turn at the hub into Tomorrowland and still be in Car #1. The magic has clearly faded significantly at DL, and from the changes occuring at WDW it could appear that the cancer has begun to spread to WDW as well.

All is not doom and gloom, and there is still plenty of Magic to go around. But it is the current trend that breaks my heart, and it is in the heart where the Magic lives.

I've read with interest the attempts to quantify the Magic which appeared earlier on this thread. All of this missed a very important point- well, at least its important to me. To a long-term repeat visitor to WDW (and DL), I have found it amazing that over the years Disney have continually added to the Magic and have always seemed to top themselves. Every time I go, there await new marvels. In fact, to me a big part of the Magic has been the fact that there is always a lot of new Magic each time I go (which is relatively often).

In the last few years the increase of Magic has stopped, and some Car #1 riders even admit the Magic has declined a smidgen. To me at least, a decline in Magic is a huge blow to my total feeling of Magic. Yes, I know that Disney is somewhat a victim of their own success in this regard. If I felt that they were trying at least, I might be able to overlook the decrease. But the change in philosophy that many of you allude to is so clear that it makes the decline impossible to ignore.

Finally, I think that demonizing Eisner (or even Pressler, who probably deserves most of the blame at least in the case of DL) is not productive. Similarly, deifying Walt will accomplish nothing at this late date. Fixing the problems does not require slavishingly studying Walt's life and asking what would he do. What is required is deciding to make the commitment that "I will try to make a little Magic today", and then following the pathway that then opens up.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW!! What a busy Friday!! And me, not by a computer . OK!! We’ve got a lot to cover!! I’ll probably only hit the highlights and still be all over the map. Soooooo…. HANG ON!!!!!!

DisneyKidds! You’re first in my sights!!!

First off, it seems there are some things we will never agree on. MGM, Floridian (I assume Grand? - remember, I'm new), AK - these woeful mistakes that tilt the universe on its edge. PUH! LEAS! Even if I agree that they are the result of a different philosophy, they are hardly the downfall of Disney.

Like the Broadway show: “What’s the matter with Kidds to – day!!!” Or if you prefer, “What we’ve got here, is a failure to communicate!!”

And we do have a ‘communication breakdown’. Look close at your passage. Did I ever say that MGM or the Floridian (yes Grand) would be the downfall of Disney? Now, you might think I’m splitting hairs, but it really is quite a substantial difference, so I’ll say it very slowly (please read it just as slow, and let it sink in a bit).

MGM and the Floridian are merely symptoms. Admittedly they added some (relative term) value. They (and all the other symptoms I’ve ever mentioned) are just that. SYMPTOMS!! They will not, in and of themselves cause ‘the downfall of Disney’. However, the underlying philosophy, which caused them to come into existence, will!!

I have tried to get people to play on this before, but you really seem to be saying WDW would be better off without these.

Yes. Plain and simple!

The idea of WDW without these is ridiculous.

Only because you know no other way. Picture yourself having this conversation ten years from and someone whose first trip is next year says, “The idea of WDW without Pop Century is ridiculous!!”

Even worst case, what few true 'mistakes' have been made can be worked upon and cutbacks will come around.

Counselor!! Present your evidence. Or is it just a gut feeling? You can have your feelings. That’s fine. But don’t expect me to take it for fact. You got to at least give some evidence. I’ll tell you as plainly as I can, “I DON”T SEE ANY”!!! If you’ve got some that lead you to this conclusion, show it!!!!

You can say I have no proof, but you have none to the contrary.

Do I have to go through the laundry list again!! Go back through the threads. And if that’s not enough, maybe we could impose upon AV to favor us with some choice quotes from the current big cheese himself!! Talk about self incriminating!!! There are some classics there.

Keep you wits about you man, use your head, don't panic (grab, shake, slap) !!!!!!

Or I’ll be piloting a chicken???

But ok, table it is for the sake of argument. I don't buy how the stacking cards can have any effect on the underlying table (much less a foundation).

See!!! Right there!!! You’ve got it wrong!! Completely. 100% backwards! The cards don’t affect the table, the table affects the cards!!!! The perfect, pristine, made like iron table (or foundation if you like) that Walt built is being perverted. The legs have rusted and the top is warping. The cards have nothing to do with it. But the table affects the cards above.

Put plainly, Ei$ner never understood ‘the dead guys’ philosophy (or table) and went about changing it. He wanted to put in his own talble. But he really couldn’t because the house of cards would have fallen. So instead he ignored the table. He didn’t take care of it and even twisted it a bit to suit his own ends. The table (Philosophy) started to atrophy and rust. It became warped and broken. It still holds the cards, but the cards are all over the place now, because the table isn’t strong anymore. Or use a foundation that the termites have been in. Either way the house, while still standing, is in grave danger of falling.

And when I talk about falling, I’m talking about falling from the tremendous standards that was once Disney, and ‘falling’ to the standards of 6 Flags. For me, though Disney still stands and may even turn a tremendous profit for those of you who like to talk numbers, it will be over. My Disney will have crumbled. You see, I didn’t fall in love with a 6 Flags type place. I fell in love with Disney!!!!!

Car #3ers have lost faith in the ability of the foundation that Walt built to withstand the rigors of time, and keep the structure, and the Magic, standing.

If I understand you right you equate the “foundation” with Walt’s “Philosophy”. Right? Well in that case, the table isn’t broken. It doesn’t exist anymore. It has been replaced by Ei$ner’s philosophy.

Next! Mr. Bstanley, could you please step into my office!!

1st - there is no doubt in my military mind that Walt Disney was almost singularly responsible for 'believing' into existence the original DL. It is conceivable that without that unique collection of genes, experiences, training, resources...etc...that was Walter Elias Disney there would never have been a DL.

I agree!! However I disagree with your number 2 & 3. I think it was fortunate for us that Walt lived when he did. But if it were five hundred years ago, we may have had to read about him instead of (or alongside) Shakespeare! And born fifty years later, who knows what marvelous things he’s be doing now. Pushing a technological envelope as exists today is mind boggling!!!

3rd - there is no doubt in my military mind that since 1955 there have been literally hundreds of thousands of storytellers trained, first directly from Walt Disney, later indirectly at the hand of those lucky few, and even later (now) through study of the work of those who preceded them.

Yeah! No doubt. But hardly any of them work for Disney anymore. Now why is that do you suppose?

Even during the present management's tenure (the last 6 years)

Excuse me… Excuse me… I hate to interrupt a good quote, but where did you grab that number? 6 years? Please explain. Maybe I missed something!

Because everything required is still there to continue to produce The Magic - the demand, the resources, the capabilities, the people

Well, two out of four ain’t all that good when it comes to Disney. I agree with the demand. And I totally agree with the resources (although one has to question the gutting of WDI). But I do not agree that they (at least top management) have the capabilities or the people (people like Paul Pre$$ler you mean?).

And producing The Magic is, in fact, the way to make the most money. And even the present management wants that.

What kind of Magic? Disney magic? Or 6-Flags/DCA type magic? To me there’s a difference. How about to you?

Basically I am just as confident that The Magic will never be forgotten as I am that the Greek Tragedy will never be forgotten.

I agree! But I think you’ll notice that there haven’t been any of those on the best sellers list for quite some time now. It seems no one writes them anymore. Kind of like that old time Disney MAGIC!!

Sir Raider!! May I have a word with you?

So I am definitely not happy about the trend, and frankly find some of the decisions embarrassing

Sounds like car #2 at least!!!

The issue of creating Magic and letting it drive business goals vs. letting the business goals drive the Magic. I have no doubt that the pendulum has swung too far in the latter direction.

Still heading for that 2 car. By the way. That is a very good sentence there about driving the magic. I wholeheartedly agree!!!!

As someone who wants to see Walt's vision continue, and be all that it can be. THIS is where I see mgmt falling flat on its face.

Well, I cheated!! I read ahead and can add nothing to what JJ (…er.. ah… I mean…) Walt's Frozen Head said. I’d just like to point out that the way I read your position, you’ve moved past car #2 and actually opened the door of #3.

Even for someone focused on the business of making Magic, a solid business model can be built that supports the "all-out" approach. But alas, mgmt has not gone this route, and for that, they should be flogged. Or just disposed of.

Are you really sure about that car choice??!!

Walt's Frozen Head -

‘nough said!!

Scoop my fiend!!

Query: When did this business philosophy change?

From the very first day EI$ner signed in for work!

1. How entrenched has this change become?

Very entrenched!!!

2. How could that original event(s) have been offset or countered?

Not hiring someone who doesn’t “get it”!!!

3. Can we learn from that event(s) about how to change back or revise the current philosophy?

Yes!!! Get rid of the knucklehead that doesn’t “get it”, and hire one that does!!!

 

[Bstanley]

Herr Baron, REPORTING FOR DUTY, SIR!

I didn't mean to give the impression that Walt wouldn't have been as good a storyteller 500 years before now or 500 years later than now - but frankly his storyteller skills may not have made him a great playwright - and who knows about the future. I tell you what - I'll agree that it was very fortunate for me personally that he lived when he did so I can enjoy what he started.

As to storytellers at Disney today. First - I'm not sure how many people that know how to tell a good story still work at Disney - But I just watched Lilo and Stitch and frankly it made me cry and cheer along with hundreds of other 'kids' (the theatre was packed) so there are definitely some people there that know how to do it.

But even if there were only a few left there more can be found, more can be trained, and more can be hired back. The Djinni is out of the bottle, The Magic is loose in the world. I am not a big ME apologist, I think he has made it harder for the storytellers at Disney, and people have left because of him - especially since FW died.

And the reason I called the present management's tenure 6 years is because that's how long the big ME has been on his own - without the balance that FW provided. Even the big ME himself has acknowledged that without FW he 'lost his keel' at Disney. IMHO the big ME and FW were good for Disney, but the big ME on his own hasn't been.

What kind of Magic do I want? How's this - I have never been to a Six Flags park, a hotel near a Six Flags, or a dog track near a Six Flags. I do go to WDW virtually every year and I spend a bunch of money to stay at Disney resorts. Oh - I also visit DL many times when I'm returning from trips to Japan.

I am just as confident that you can make the most money by providing The Magic as I am that LEXUS has a higher profit margin than TOYOTA.

Well according to AV the principles of 'the show' embodied in The Greek Tragedy are as crucial today as they have ever been. That's good enough for me...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Herr Baron, REPORTING FOR DUTY, SIR!

At ease! At ease!!

But even if there were only a few left there more can be found, more can be trained, and more can be hired back.

But my dear General (you did mention the military. If general doesn’t work, let me know an appropriate rank). Anyway, My dear General, the trend is going the opposite way. What could possibly lead you to the conclusion that they are even half way interested in hiring anyone back? Heck!!! They just chased them all away!!!! Doesn’t look, to me at least, that they want to find any.

The Djinni is out of the bottle, The Magic is loose in the world. I am not a big ME apologist, I think he has made it harder for the storytellers at Disney, and people have left because of him - especially since FW died.

Again, I really gotta know!!! Why do you trust in him? After all, he’s in charge of “The Magic”. He has final say! So, what do you see in him that leads you to believe that the Magic is in good hands?

IMHO the big ME and FW were good for Disney, but the big ME on his own hasn't been.

And still you trust him with “The Magic”. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I am just as confident that you can make the most money by providing The Magic as I am that LEXUS has a higher profit margin than TOYOTA.

Are we talking money or magic? Because I think you can probably make more money doing things like Ei$ner does (only not so stupidly!)!! I think a competent CEO could make a ton off Disney and totally suck the place dry. Is that what you want? A company that is making money? Or a company that is making magic?

I think you can do both. Maybe you do too. But you don’t do it by squeezing every division within the park for that extra profit and extra cost reduction. You need to concentrate on the Magic first. And the money will take care of itself!!!

 

[Bstanley]

Herr Baron, thank you sir.

Actually since my parents were married to each other I was an NCO - Sergeant for the non-military among us (this is an 'inside joke' for former Non-Commissioned Officers - I apologize to all the Commissioned Officers I have just slandered .

I do not recall the Disney board asking me who my choice would be for the CEO/Chairman position...actually for that matter I don't recall you asking me either. In fact I believe I have said several times recently that without FW around the big ME is not my first choice.

As to the 'Brain drain' at Disney - I seem to recall Don Bluth taking a big chunk out of the Animation Studio way back when and yet even with the big ME in charge just a few years after that Disney produced a marvelous string of very magical animated movies - although he did have FW and JK around to help. Even more recently without FW and JK to help Disney managed to produce Tarzan and now Lilo and Stitch, both of which I found magical.

I do not 'trust him' with The Magic any more than I 'trust' anyone. Even people that are good at The Magic don't do it well all the time. And sometimes The Magic that is done isn't 'my' kind of Magic. You see I don't think the big ME has to be good at The Magic for Disney to continue to have The Magic anymore than I think that Enzo Ferrari has to be alive for the Ferrari company to be able to produce magical cars.

And from there on out I basically agree with every single word you said! Holy cow - a pile of stipulation!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Oh that’s just terrific! You wouldn’t know it from my posts (as I always use my Word program and paste it in) but I am an absolutely horrible speller!! And now I have to learn to spell Sergeant!! But Sergeant Stanley has a nice ring to it, don’t you think? (By the way, is Sgt. Ok?)

I do not recall the Disney board asking me who my choice would be for the CEO/Chairman position

Ah! And they didn’t ask me either, mores the pity!! And I agree!! Ei$ner would not be my first choice either. That doesn't surprise you, does it?

Now, maybe I haven’t been clear. Or maybe I’ve been clear a year ago and you weren’t here to hear my eloquently persuasive dissertation as to the state of the “magic”. In a nutshell it all boils down to vision and philosophy.

Now, I’ve read lately on these boards and on threads that I haven’t been directly involved with that some people can’t understand (and actually want us to stop ‘demonizing’ Ei$ner. And to a point I can understand it. At first glance he looks like too easy a target. And after all, he can’t make every stinking decision. I mean, do you think he’s even aware that they no longer serve my Mickey head butter or after dinner chocolates in EPCOT? No!! Of course not!! He probably wasn’t aware that they served them in the first place!!

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Just waiting a moment for that to sink in.

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OK! Do you see it!?? "He probably wasn’t aware that they served them in the first place!!"

I’ve seen a couple of posts recently allude to the fact that Team Disney doesn’t get it (and one, from a car #1 rider no less, directly accusing Ei$ner & crew of never having placed a foot in a Disney park until they came to work for them). Yet this guy is the keeper of the kingdom. The steward of the Magic. Walt’s magic. Let’s face it, if he falters, the magic could be lost. I agree it would take ineptness to a degree to which even Ei$ner doesn’t aspire. But it is possible.

What’s more possible however, and even more probable (I think it’s already happening) is that the curator of all things ‘magical’ will bumble so badly that we will not die. It will survive. Yes!! Disney will go on. And maybe (although not likely) make money. But in doing so it will become plain, ordinary and mundane. Mediocrity will become the watchword. Pop Century, Dino-rama and huge decorating icons for everyone!! Plenty to go around!! Now isn’t that magic!!!

So, for me, it boils down to management. After all it’s management that sets the culture of the company. It’s management that sets the tone. It’s management that creates and/or maintains and/or changes their philosophical business model. And I’m afraid that between his ego, ineptness and general unmagical qualities, he has changed the direction of the company. That, my good Sergeant, is the green kryptonite in the lead box. And he is opening the box!!!!!

You see I don't think the big ME has to be good at The Magic for Disney to continue to have The Magic anymore than I think that Enzo Ferrari has to be alive for the Ferrari company to be able to produce magical cars.

I was going to write at least a page and a half on this one!! But I’ve run out of time. Besides, when I first read it I immediately thought of what fun AV would have with it. So…. I’ll leave it alone! (for now!!)

 

[DisneyKidds]

Whew! (says DK exhausted from reading..... )

Where to start..........Nah, not gonna go there .

Alas, my good Baron, we do have a communication problem , but I don't doubt that a subtle change would eliminate it . Also, communication problems do help lead to solutions as you spend the time to find out why you aren't communicating. However, that is not where I want to go this morning. Plus, I fear that if we resolve the communication problem we may have bigger problems . Bad enough when I thought you were saying the misaligned cards helped warp the table, but to believe that the table was capable of warping without the cards, rotting on its own while the cards were being misplaced......... we could continue to discuss, but how productively ? (but I'm game if you are - however, I predict I will eventually toss my cookies from all that going round, and round, and round......).

I submit this to all. Everyone has been making good points. Most everyone has a flaw or two. We all have very much in common. So keeping that in mind I want to point out the constants and some of the best points, IMHO (and surprisingly, some come from Car #3ers). (see there are things I can stipulate to )

1. WDW, Disney, and the Magic are different for each individual.
2. There are many things, new and old, that many like and many dislike - at the same time.
3. I forget which frozen body part stated it, but to have an effective discussion we need to seperate somewhat from our personal feelings.
4. Change is a constant in life. Good, bad, or indifferent, the Disney Corp, WDW, DL, etc., etc. are constantly changing for a variety of reasons.
5. Different management regimes, the current being the prime culprit, have made many mistakes - some small, some whoppers.
6. Different management regimes........have done some good things - some small, some whoppers.
7. The current Disney philosophy is not Walt's philosophy.
8. There is most likely a way to make different Disney philosophies 'work'.
9. We all love WDW and want to find a way to better enjoy it, or to be able to keep enjoying it.

I could find more, but that is enough (primarily) common ground to work from. So from there I would like to address the productivity of the discussion . While it has been very productive from a Disney education standpoint, where is it going? What is the point? Baron aside , do we really want to get people to change cars? Would it be right to do so? Would it be good to have everone in one car? I say no (but guess we could do half a dozen pages on that ). So with that...........

Coming soon to a discussion board near you.........

The Pilfering and Proliferation of Disney in the Post 'Walt' Disney of the 80's, 90's and Tomorrow.

A productive discussion of all things Disney yesterday, today, and tomorrow. A fascinating journey of discovery and open, unbiased, objective discussion regarding the pasks, the business, the management, and how we can enjoy the Magic that everyone agrees is present. Guaranteed to be an edge of your seat thriller, with a few twists and turns along the way!

The NY Times says......" a lot of fun for the Disney set. I couldn't put it down"

The Washington Post said..."fascinating insight into Disney. An education for the most educated Disney fan.

E!...."Now this is entertainment! Not to be missed!"

and................

Benchmarking the Disney Magic

A retrospective look at what makes the Magic for everyone. A forward looking piece that askes what will make the Magic in the future. A helpful and informative work that will ask the hard hitting questions. 'Do those from different generations enjoy the same Magic?' 'Can the younger generations appreciate the whole of the Disney Magic?' 'Can enjoyment be found in the Magic of today, coupled with the Magic of yesteryear?' 'How can we all continue to enjoy the Magic, shortcomings, changes, and all?' At times emotional, often exciting, and bound to be a roller coaster ride!

Funny thing is, the reviews are the same as all of those above!

BTW - if anyone wants to use these if you write the book before I do I will only require a small royalty .

I promise to get those started soon. For now, back to spreading that 5 yards of mulch.........

 

[raidermatt]

Mr. Head-

I just wanted to touch on a few things you said...

("Stop rhyming, I mean it."

"Anybody want a peanit")

Your first viewpoint is the one I feel we must consciously remove from our discussion if we ever want to have a meaningful conversation.

I agree that this viewpoint makes for a tiring debate, but since the definition of car's 2 and 3 includes "the Magic has faded", I can't just ignore this viewpoint. I see the "Magic Car" being driven by a mgmt team that looks to be wrong for the job, but the Car was so well built, they haven't screwed it up.

Perhaps I need my own car that says "The Magic has not faded, but I am concerned that it could".

That first viewpoint boils down to nothing more than "hey, _I_ like it," or worse yet, "hey, I think it's still better than Six Flags."

I really try to stay out of using that kind of "logic" when defending my "Magic hasn't faded" position, and apologize if I have dipped into it. I agree, it gets us nowhere and completely misses the point of what we are talking about.

I absolutely disagree that the point of the Cars is to organize teams for shouting matches.

YIKES! If it sounded like I was trying to organize shouting matches, I truly apologize. I couldn't agree with you more.

When I say the Magic is fading, I mean that Disney no longer operates by the rules that defined Magic in the first place. When I say that it won't be coming back, I mean that I see no evidence that anyone in a position to do anything about it cares about the old business philosophy any more, they are all perfectly happy confining their magic to the Accounting department.

I understand, and to a certain extent, agree. I'm just saying that there is a lag between the time mgmt starts doing dumb things and we start seeing the negative impact. The stronger things were to begin with, the longer the lag. We're starting to see some impact now, but Eisner has fewer years ahead of him than behind. There's also the possibility that he will learn from his mistakes. Not to necessarily become Walt's reincarnation, but to realize he has gone too far and he can't build another DCA. Honestly, if he doesn't figure this out, I don't see him running this company for much longer.

You seem to be saying that the Magic has _always_ been Magical, but could always have been so much more.

Well, in all honesty, yes, it always could have been more. Nobody is perfect. Walt came pretty close given his financial limitations, but even he made mistakes that could have been avoided. But that's not what I was talking about. Walt may have not been perfect, but he accomplished more than anyone could realistically be expected to accomplish.

The same cannot be said for current mgmt, and that's what I was referring to. One can objectively look at what they have created/added and said, yes, they could have and SHOULD have done better.

Baron- I remain in car 1, if only because of my apparently unorthodox interpretation of car definitions. But I think we agree on more than it might have first appeared....

 

[raidermatt]

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Keep you wits about you man, use your head, don't panic (grab, shake, slap) !!!!!!

Or I’ll be piloting a chicken???

Very good. An excellent Buzzy reference, and I just thought it deserved repeating.