Is Park West at Sea (onboard the Magic) defrauding Magic passengers?

[tomspixie]

I'm not and I don't even know what this company is. Do you know? I didn't call you a shill.

tomspixie was quoted in my post and I wanted her to elaborate on her statement "The links to the negative articles all filter through one website"... since as far as I can see, they don't.

Congratulations on your smart investments.

First, Thanks nick262! Right back at you! Great and articulate writing!

As to the website...Fine Art Registry. There are really not a lot of complaints for the numerous ships that PW at Sea is on. Plus it sounded by their posts that there was a bit of buyer's remorse.

As to Inside Edition...have you not paid any attention to media in the last decade+/-?? Most stories are geared in one direction...spin...to get the desired effect. They take a couple of people's stories and go from there. Did they bother to contact any of the positive stories??? Did they bother to talk with the artists???

You sound like someone content to find the negative. I do not work for Park West. My husband and I have just been fortunate enough to have purchased some great pieces through them. Because of those works, we have been in contact with the artists' actual galleries and have spoken WITH the artists. They were happy to speak with us since we did purchase through Park West.

While we have been unable to attend any of the VIP functions that PW does...the artists go and spend the weekend with guests. So the artists talk with and share with guests. Don't think the artists would give up 3-5 days to be with less than reputable company.

I just replied because WE have been very pleased with our purchases through PW at Sea. We did the Med cruise and found the auctions to be very enjoyable. They made it fun and informative in a professional way. The difficulty lies in the situation that when the Magic and Wonder were built, they did not have a gallery or auction site built into the design. It is something that they found space for which could be the reason some find it awkward and in the way.

Our cruise in September of this year found us spending quite a bit of time with John Rowe, and then Harrison Ellenshaw. Both long time Disney Fine Art artists. Both were pleased to be working with PW. Neither was in need of PW. They have long standing careers with quite a bit of accolades and funding.

Again...why not at least go and learn a little. You don't have to buy a thing. Loved the pieces from Ellenshaw and Rowe that we just got. All were less than they were in the land galleries!

 

[CustardTart]

...My husband and I have just been fortunate enough to have purchased some great pieces through them... I just replied because WE have been very pleased with our purchases through PW at Sea. We did the Med cruise and found the auctions to be very enjoyable. They made it fun and informative in a professional way... Again...why not at least go and learn a little. You don't have to buy a thing. Loved the pieces from Ellenshaw and Rowe that we just got. All were less than they were in the land galleries!

We have also bought a few pieces from Park West whilst on DCL and have been delighted with our purchases. On our last cruise (Mexican Riviera in August) Trevor Carlton (such a nice guy) was onboard and we bought one of his retro style Mickey Mouse paintings. I was nervous about ever receiving it as we had to have it shipped to the UK but it arrived about a month ago in perfect condition and now looks fab in situ. If anything, we're now even more satisfied Park West customers than before and I am very much looking forward to attending the auctions next September on our Tortola cruise. For DH and I, it adds another enjoyable dimension to our vacation...

...But you DO NOT HAVE TO BUY IT... There is good and bad in all companies. Some people think that Disney is a rip off (see thread from yesterday) and others see the value. TOO EACH HIS OWN...

EXACTLY!

I personally just go for the free cosmos and martinis.

And why not - I'm a big fan of those appletinis...

 

[tomspixie]

hey there...did a little extra investigating...check into some of the art magazines that art out there. there is a great article from Art World. several articles out there that are positive for PW at Sea. just thought it might help.

best of days all!

 

[gmark2000]

Could you provide some those other links? I only found something that commended Park West for a new return policy introduced only in September.

I found this other article from ArtWorldSalon.com:

Newbies: Cruising for a bruising
Saturday May 5, 2007 | 12:48 by Marc Spiegler in Zurich |

Almost a month ago, loyal Artworld Salon reader Gallerina sent me a link to this article detailing controversy surrounding Park West at Sea, an outfit that conducts art auctions aboard 70 cruise ships, with lots including editioned pieces drawn from the oeuvreds of Picasso, Renoir, Dali, Erte and Toulouse-Lautrec, among other name-brand artists. The investigative piece by Arizona Republic reporter Dennis Wagner reads like a caveat emptor aimed at art-market newbies. It starts thus:

"Like thousands of tourists, Gary and Olga Holloway went on a Caribbean cruise for relaxation. The Scottsdale couple also wound up learning about fine art thanks to Park West at Sea, a company that conducts onboard auctions. Before the trip was over last June, they had spent $17,836 on three limited-edition prints by Rembrandt van Rijn, plus one by Dali.

Gary Holloway was thrilled with his sophisticated investment, backed by appraisals and letters of authenticity.The works showed a total “retail replacement price” of about $24,000. Holloway figured he had actually made money while on vacation. Back home in Arizona, he enjoyed looking at the artwork for six months, then advertised it on eBay. He got no bid over $1,000 and was puzzled to find similar prints offered for one-quarter of his purchase price."

Wagner also reports, that Nevada steelman Jim Russell bought a Jules Cheret chalk drawing for $24,700, then discovered online that Park West had recently bought the drawing for $2,000. Park West lawyer Morris Shapiro’s response: “Surely, Mr. Russell could not reasonably think that he was buying ‘at cost,’ especially in a competitive auction environment. Respectfully, Mr. Russell bid and paid what he chose to bid and pay.”

Of course, both buyers complained to Park West, and were rebuffed by the company’s attorneys, who pointed toward the fine print in the buying agreement and the accompanying appraisals, within which the company “assumes no liability for claims that our appraisal is inaccurate.” In general, the article makes clear that this floating auction house benefits greatly from the ignorance of its clientele. Wagner cites veteran art appraiser Corinne Cain of Phoenix, who says that while Park West’s labeling was technically accurate, potential buyers most likely lacked the sophistication to see that the information pointed to the artwork’s comparatively low desirability.

For example, Cain said, the phrase “signed in the stone” means an artist did not individually sign the work. Another term, “pochoir,” describes a stencil print that is generally less valuable than an original etching or lithograph. Shapiro’s answer: “If someone doesn’t understand ’signed in stone’ or ‘pochoir,’ please, these are adults. They need only to ask. Is that so surprising or unfair?”

Worse yet - though hardly an accusation unheard-of concerning major auction houses - Wagner notes that there are allegations of Park West auctioneers inflating bids through using fictional underbidders, aka “bidding against the chandelier,” which has led to Park West facing a potential class-action lawsuit with up 1 million plaintiffs.

Obviously, the Park West at Sea story has very little to do with the artworld which ArtworldSalon normally discusses. And I know it’s tempting for many artworld insiders to label these people as Philistines fallen victim to their own ignorance. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder: To what degree has the steady stream of articles positing artworks as “the new asset class,” running in reputable publications and often quoting artworld insiders, contributed to making possible the confidence games Park West allegedly unleashed upon those pleasure cruisers?

 

[tomspixie]

GMark2000....I will do my best to get you the information on articles. Unfortunately, it takes me a bit to manuever around the internet and try to connect links together. Sorry. Today is a bit nutty, so it will likely be tonight before I can get to it. Thanks for your 2007 article.

have a great day all!

 

[TChrist05]

Have taken 16 Disney cruises, and enjoy the artwork and watching the auctions. I stand up on deck 4 and watch from a distance. I am not in a financial position to buy this kind of artwork, nor do I feel you truly get a great price on anything they sell...but I would miss it if it was gone...just enjoy watching. When you add on all the additional fees, 15%,shipping, framing, insurance etc....just not for us.

Enjoy the auctions....and buyer beware!
Tom

 

[tomspixie]

Have taken 16 Disney cruises, and enjoy the artwork and watching the auctions. I stand up on deck 4 and watch from a distance. I am not in a financial position to buy this kind of artwork, nor do I feel you truly get a great price on anything they sell...but I would miss it if it was gone...just enjoy watching. When you add on all the additional fees, 15%,shipping, framing, insurance etc....just not for us.

Enjoy the auctions....and buyer beware!
Tom

Quick note here...when we sailed in late September, we bought a Chiarograph by Peter Ellenshaw, enhanced by Harrison Ellenshaw. When we got off of the ship I was at one of the galleries on Disney property and found the same Chiarograph of Beast's castle for less than half of what we paid...shipping, framing, 15% and all!
So if do your homework ahead, a good deal is a possibility!

 

[4 mickey]

Hi
I tought I would tell our story ..been on many cruises and bought several times from PW and always been happy with our purchases .
Our last buy was on our sept cruise where we bought a carlton travis ( I think it's the name of the artist he was on the cruise ) and even took pictures with him he was so nice .
The point I guess is you can choose to go or not ...you can choose to buy or not ...nobody forces on anybody ...but for those who like to buy a piece of art or a memory of the cruise they are on PW is great for that .
We have to be aware that internet & articles often talk about one or two bad exemples but not so often about pleased customers ( who we are ) .

 

[gmark2000]

We have to be aware that internet & articles often talk about one or two bad exemples but not so often about pleased customers ( who we are ) .

Yes, but there are probably some who are blissfully ignorant about what they purchased too.

As the art appraiser noted in my quoted article "while Park West’s labeling was technically accurate, potential buyers most likely lacked the sophistication to see that the information pointed to the artwork’s comparatively low desirability".

One thing to note is that the most of the reported fraud was attributed to the questionable provenance of the extremely high-end Dali, Rembrandt, Max pieces. I don't presume any of you are in this league.

 

[tomspixie]

Yes, but there are probably some who are blissfully ignorant about what they purchased too.

As the art appraiser noted in my quoted article "while Park West’s labeling was technically accurate, potential buyers most likely lacked the sophistication to see that the information pointed to the artwork’s comparatively low desirability".

One thing to note is that the most of the reported fraud was attributed to the questionable provenance of the extremely high-end Dali, Rembrandt, Max pieces. I don't presume any of you are in this league.

WOW! GMARK2000...what a slam! Are you saying that we disboarders are not able to have high end pieces? By the way, my apologies in that I still have not gotten the articles organized to put on...but will. Life here way too chaotic!!! Anyway...we do have several Max pieces, some Dali, some Rembrandt, Mouly, as well as several other artists. Max works WITH Park West at times. He does VIP functions for them, as well as other events. The provenance of his pieces is pretty assured with PW. Our other pieces have been verified by third parties. On a side note, Bernard Ewell's credentials are above reproach. He is the appraiser for Park West with regards to Dali. When I have more time, I will try and make note of them as well.

 

[Empress Room]

I am neither an art collector, nor an art buyer, but I happen to live in southeast Michigan, right down the street from Park West Gallery, the gallery behind the art auctions at sea.

Park West Gallery has been located (and has expanded its gallery on Northwestern Highway in Southfield) for over 20 years. It enjoys an extremely favorable reputation as being the area's only true and authentic art gallery. It shows and sells all of the masters' works, and in those 20 plus years, I have never seen, heard or read a negative newspaper story or article about it, its art pieces or its owners.

In fact, its owners have established a local foundation to combat poverty and other social issues in the metropolitan Detroit area. The gallery is often used for these philanthropic and charitable events, and the owners, as I recall, are extremely involved in their local church.

Again, I know nothing about art and art collecting, but Park West's Gallery here in Michigan does enjoy a great reputation. I cannot speak of pricing, value or the "art auctions at sea" branch of its business, but I have always felt that the pricing and appreciation of all art has uniformly been subjective, so it invites negative blogs, criticisms and opinions.

Maybe this info helps you out, maybe it doesn't.

 

[tomspixie]

I am neither an art collector, nor an art buyer, but I happen to live in southeast Michigan, right down the street from Park West Gallery, the gallery behind the art auctions at sea.

Park West Gallery has been located (and has expanded its gallery on Northwestern Highway in Southfield) for over 20 years. It enjoys an extremely favorable reputation as being the area's only true and authentic art gallery. It shows and sells all of the masters' works, and in those 20 plus years, I have never seen, heard or read a negative newspaper story or article about it, its art pieces or its owners.

In fact, its owners have established a local foundation to combat poverty and other social issues in the metropolitan Detroit area. The gallery is often used for these philanthropic and charitable events, and the owners, as I recall, are extremely involved in their local church.

Again, I know nothing about art and art collecting, but Park West's Gallery here in Michigan does enjoy a great reputation. I cannot speak of pricing, value or the "art auctions at sea" branch of its business, but I have always felt that the pricing and appreciation of all art has uniformly been subjective, so it invites negative blogs, criticisms and opinions.

Maybe this info helps you out, maybe it doesn't.

Well written and well said. It is nice to hear about the local work they do!

Sending Pixie Dust your way...well, it is coming from my parents who are down at our home near Disney! They sent it back up to me in central Illinois, and I send it on to you!

 

[slindamood]

In any event -- BUYER BEWARE - do some research before purchasing from these folks on board the Magic!

Good advice.

However, art is at best a risky investment and most people should consider their purchase as purely for personal enjoyment. If you will get $500 in enjoyment for something (as compared to other expenditures on enjoyment) then pay the amount. But don't expect someone else to pay more, and don't consider it part of your retirement fund!

I listened in on the talk for a bit on my recent cruise (from a balcony a floor above). The woman was talking about appraisals and the amount a piece was appraised for. I noted that she put it in the context of a rider on your insurance policy and was carefully dancing around the appraisal as a value or investment. However, the overall impression was you were getting something worth more than you paid. She was good. Beware.

 

[rgroves]

On our last DCL cruise in Dec 2007, we go "caught up" in the auction buzz. We big on several pieces, and didn't wan many of them. We knew what we could afford, and didn't go above our means. Now we didn't bid on any of the high end pieces (Max, Dali, etc...) We bid on the character pieces, a few Chen's, and some other things. My wife fell in love with a Chen, and we watched it and waited till they auctioneers did a special auction for it. We ended up winning one of the drawings for a print of a Markus Glenn, and we got in on a deal for the Chen "Winter in Central Park" (I think is the name), and with the two of them (framed, matted, and shipped) we spent a little over $1300. We stopped with the two pieces, while there were more we liked, we knew our limits.

After we got home, I found all the "dirt" on the Fine Art Registry, and read all of it and started to get concerned, and even called a few appraisers. But we stopped short of actually taking them down and having them checked out. The reason we stopped was that we really love the Chen we bought, and if we were to find out we got ripped off and had to send it back for a refund would've killed my wife and I. We are just happy with our purchase, and don't want to know if we got a deal or the shaft.

When we go on our next cruise in Nev 2009, I'm sure we'll sit in the auctions again and look over the selections, and may even bid on a few items. Most of all we'll enjoy the free drinks!!!!

 

[tomspixie]

Okay...can't figure out how to paste and post. I am such a disappointment to my kids where computers are concerned. Anyway, look into some of the art magazines...Art World News, Art World Now etc. Another option is to get some of the more local newspaper articles, etc.
The other idea is to look up Bernard Ewell...his credentials are solid.
Sorry that I didn't have the info for you. But I guess I looked up negative information, and I took the time to look for positive information as well.
We are confident in our purchases, in the gallery, and in the people of Park West.

 

[webray]

We have bought through Park West as well as other galleries...we have been successful with Park West. The links to the negative articles all filter through one website....hmmmm?!


Thanks tomspixie....we had only great experiences with Park West on the DCL as well. Again, you have to know what you are buying. (we didn't at first, lol, but had a blast anyway). We noticed many people previewed the auctions, then did a little price shopping/checking at the internet cafes before making their purchases.

Everything we bought came in perfect condition when they said it would.
The dealers on the ship were not pushy. They sell so much stuff on those cruises, they don't need to be pushy. We also love that they do the Disney items through park west, instead of those "stup*d" silent auctions. We have gotten some great autographed momentos from the ship (limited edition cells for the ship as well). Cool thing was..they took care of getting the autographs from Mickey, etc, for us. WE didn't even have to go wait in line.

There is always someone that is going to be unhappy with something, no matter where you go, what you are doing/buying. Disney wouldn't have them on the ship if they were bad!

 

[CustardTart]

We have bought through Park West as well as other galleries...we have been successful with Park West. The links to the negative articles all filter through one website....hmmmm?!


Thanks tomspixie....we had only great experiences with Park West on the DCL as well. Again, you have to know what you are buying. (we didn't at first, lol, but had a blast anyway). We noticed many people previewed the auctions, then did a little price shopping/checking at the internet cafes before making their purchases.

Everything we bought came in perfect condition when they said it would.
The dealers on the ship were not pushy. They sell so much stuff on those cruises, they don't need to be pushy. We also love that they do the Disney items through park west, instead of those "stup*d" silent auctions. We have gotten some great autographed momentos from the ship (limited edition cells for the ship as well). Cool thing was..they took care of getting the autographs from Mickey, etc, for us. WE didn't even have to go wait in line.

There is always someone that is going to be unhappy with something, no matter where you go, what you are doing/buying. Disney wouldn't have them on the ship if they were bad!

Exactly! That's what we did and were more than happy with the prices we'd secured...

 

[taswira]

I really have no stand on this because I make it my own policy not to participate in onboard auctions unless it is specifically the ship's auction of its own special items (not outside art), BUT . . .

My instinct when reading this thread was to check for a Better Business Bureau report. Park West Gallery is a member and their rating is "Satisfactory." The most complaints are for their selling practices. Anyone who is interested can view the report HERE. The gist of it is that the BBB processed a total of 58 complaints about this business in the last 36 months, their standard reporting period. Of the total 58 complaints closed in the last 36 months, 19 were closed in the last 12 months.

 

[pfishgirl]

I've purchased several prints from Park West and NEVER had a problem with them at all.... I LOVE my art work and Im proud to hang it on the wall..

If you feel you paid too much, then you should not of bid, it is an auction and that is what happens..

They also have a Buyers Remorse policy.. For all of those that feel they made a snappy decision..


Why would DISNEY back them up on every single Cruise if they were Not on the up and up.. I mean no offense, but Come On people..

 

[pfishgirl]

We have also bought a few pieces from Park West whilst on DCL and have been delighted with our purchases. On our last cruise (Mexican Riviera in August) Trevor Carlton (such a nice guy) was onboard and we bought one of his retro style Mickey Mouse paintings. I was nervous about ever receiving it as we had to have it shipped to the UK but it arrived about a month ago in perfect condition and now looks fab in situ. If anything, we're now even more satisfied Park West customers than before and I am very much looking forward to attending the auctions next September on our Tortola cruise. For DH and I, it adds another enjoyable dimension to our vacation..



And why not - I'm a big fan of those appletinis...

Yeaaaaaaaaa I'll be there Toooo!!! I liked the Cosmos better but then again I'm not a sour apple person..