Is lodging outpacing available theme park space?

[BostonDisneyKid]

Sorry its a bit off topic but WolfpackFan has a great idea here...

One thing I wish Disney offered - a 1 park AP.

Amen !!!

We would buy an AP to Epcot and a hopper for the other parks if this were an option. Or I'd suggest a DVC like approach to the AP which gives you a "home park" for unlimited use and only 1-2 visits at each of the non-home parks through out the year. This would be great for the "guests" but not so good for wdw in general as the AP sales would decrease significantly.

 

[DisFlan]

I hate the crowds as much as anyone, but the way I see it is that all those people are keeping the gates open and the lights on. As Disney's 1st quarter report stated - "In an unsettled economy, Disney's parks are our most vulnerable assets" - including the resorts. They took a loss in the first quarter and the rest of the year might not be any better.

So let's pack those crowds in! That way, we'll all have those special things we enjoy so much still up and running a couple of years from now - when we all hope the economy is better. We don't want to go back to the days of seeing areas of resorts closed, fewer rides added, big employee cuts and shorter hours. That's not good for Disney OR us.

DisFlan

 

[TenThousandVolts]

The crowds are out of control. I think Disney got its wish when it implemented 3 smart offerings that work to keep guests onsite
1. Magical Express (people aren't getting rental cars- so they can't leave)
2. Disney Dining Plan (People will eat every meal onsite- even if they do have a car- because they would be wasting $ otherwise)
3. Ticket price structure that makes it financially sensible to go to a park every day of your trip. ("We could go to Universal for a few days to mix things up for about $100 per person or we could just do a few more days at the Disney parks for $3 per person")

These 3 changes came about almost simultaneously and in my experience that was the same time crowd levels became unmanageble.

OK Disney, you got what you wanted- now expand the parks or add a new one to make room for all your 'captive' guests!

 

[Chellymouse]

WDW is getting way too crowded and not keeping up with the competition. We aren't fans of Universal, but with Universal investing huge sums of money on new thrill rides, attractions and Harry Potter...along with lower ticket prices, Disney needs to get on the stick. Most can of us can probably name at least 10 rides/attractions that need updates/overhauls or just plain retired. Orlando is growing by leaps and bounds and Disney is going to find themselves behind the 8-ball (remember the late 80's, early 90's?) ok...well I don't really, but the info isn't hard to come by! I don't particularly care to be run over, line jumped, ect because there are so many people. I expect some crowds, but not to the extent of the last 2 years. There is no such thing as "down time" anymore.

 

[tjkraz]

Just my opinion but I think it's more of a case of people being spoiled by the post-9/11 dips in crowd levels.

It seems like every time ticket prices go up, there's a large contingent that claims they have reached their tipping point. Yet here's the equation we are left with:

Higher prices + fewer new attractions = greater crowds (?)

Even if Disney does stop building hotels, the competition won't. And I don't see the existence of hotels alone as being a driving force behind the crowds. People first make the decision to go to Orlando and THEN find a hotel to stay in...not the other way around.

If crowds are too high, the most direct way Disney could impact that is to raise prices again (or more frequently.) Anyone want to see that?

As for refurbishing the current attractions, I think that is one area where WDW has actually excelled in recent years. In just the last 2-3 years we have seen MAJOR overhauls for IASW, PotC, Haunted Mansion, SSE, Land Pavilion, Living Seas and Grand Fiesta. Upgrades to Space Mtn, Jungle Cruise and Star Tours are always good fodder for the rumor mill.

I'm as anxious for the next ride announcement as anyone, but it will come. Disney has increased its refurbishment budget in recent years as noted above and I think those additions are easy to overlook. It's not realistic to expect them to refresh all of the attractions in just a few years' time, while also adding a new $100 million E-Ticket to each theme park.

 

[50 years Too!]

The crowds are out of control. I think Disney got its wish when it implemented 3 smart offerings that work to keep guests onsite
1. Magical Express (people aren't getting rental cars- so they can't leave)
2. Disney Dining Plan (People will eat every meal onsite- even if they do have a car- because they would be wasting $ otherwise)
3. Ticket price structure that makes it financially sensible to go to a park every day of your trip. ("We could go to Universal for a few days to mix things up for about $100 per person or we could just do a few more days at the Disney parks for $3 per person")

These 3 changes came about almost simultaneously and in my experience that was the same time crowd levels became unmanageble.

OK Disney, you got what you wanted- now expand the parks or add a new one to make room for all your 'captive' guests!

IMHO, this sums up the problem for us, and the success for Disney's bottom line.

Deb

 

[Disneyhappy]

Crowds have become overbearing for us to the point that we gave up our APs. We now take at least 2 trips to Universal Resorts a year for a long weekend where we maintain our APs ($99 renewal) and take one big trip to WDW. We usually add on a night at DVC tot he beginning or end our our Universal trips. We pop into DVC and/or Universal for a night or two when flying in to visit my parents or sister in BRadenton/Tampa. The Disney magic is still in us but Universal is much more economical for just slightly less magic and fewer crowds (especailly with front of the line access). With oil prices, I imagine airfare costs will limit our number of trips per year to FL in the near future. Boo Hoo!

 

[bpmorley]

And I thought me & DW were the only ones that thought this. Glad to see that we're not alone.

 

[spiceycat]

the park tickets going up is not as much problem as the resort pricing.

just go look on the Orlando hotels/attraction board.that board is about 5 times busier than it was even 2 years ago.

with the value in the $100 range for half the year - they are not longer a bargin.

still remember the crowds in 97 - haven't seem anything that bad yet. WDW then had to close the park several days to offsiters and boy did that make these people mad and the travel agents.

(even worst it was because they had stuff in their parking lot - that caused the problem....)

 

[Disneyhappy]

the park tickets going up is not as much problem as the resort pricing.

just go look on the Orlando hotels/attraction board.that board is about 5 times busier than it was even 2 years ago.

with the value in the $100 range for half the year - they are not longer a bargin.

still remember the crowds in 97 - haven't seem anything that bad yet. WDW then had to close the park several days to offsiters and boy did that make these people mad and the travel agents.

(even worst it was because they had stuff in their parking lot - that caused the problem....)

Didn't AK open since 1997 that should have helped alleviate some of the crowds? (I'm not very good with Disney trivia!) You have really peaked my curiosity - what "stuff" was in the parking lot and what time of year was the park closed to offsiters for several days? I would have been very upset as well!
Thanks!

 

[TenThousandVolts]

I think it opened in 1998. I went shortly before AK opened (Feb of 98) and crowds were not bad at all.

 

[bpmorley]

the park tickets going up is not as much problem as the resort pricing.

just go look on the Orlando hotels/attraction board.that board is about 5 times busier than it was even 2 years ago.

with the value in the $100 range for half the year - they are not longer a bargin.

still remember the crowds in 97 - haven't seem anything that bad yet. WDW then had to close the park several days to offsiters and boy did that make these people mad and the travel agents.

(even worst it was because they had stuff in their parking lot - that caused the problem....)

But when you combine both the tickets & lodging, it turns into a big jump form recent years. I never knew that they closed the parks to offsiters

 

[tammymacb]

I specifically remember being there over July 4th ( never again ) and parks were full. Only people coming in and out on Disney transportation were allowed to enter. And we were still packed like sardines...

 

[bpmorley]

I specifically remember being there over July 4th ( never again ) and parks were full. Only people coming in and out on Disney transportation were allowed to enter. And we were still packed like sardines...

WOW. If I were staying offsite, I'd be fuming.

 

[Starr W.]

But when you combine both the tickets & lodging, it turns into a big jump form recent years. I never knew that they closed the parks to offsiters

There is a protocol on closing the parks, it goes in various phases. I usually hear about it for New Years. Someone who knows should post it on this thread.

 

[tjkraz]

IIRC, there are four phases to the park's operating status:

1. Everyone is allowed in.
2. Only guests using WDW transportation are permitted in. Cars are turned-around before they enter the parking lots or TTC.
3. Only WDW resort guests are permitted in.
4. No additional guests are admitted.

Phased closures usually only last a few hours. Typically a park might hit Phase 2 or 3 around 10am - 2pm, but once some guests start leaving the park they start going back toward Phase 1.

The closures usually happen sometime during the Christmas season. Ironically, this past year (Christmas '07) seemed to have the fewest closures reported in recent memory.

WOW. If I were staying offsite, I'd be fuming.

Not much Disney can do. It's like any other business that faces issues of maximum capacity. A ballpark only has so many seats. A movie theater can only sell so many tickets.

Like I said a few posts ago, I don't think the crowds are becoming inappropriately large. Certainly they are larger than the "off-season" crowds that many have gotten used to over the last 6-7 years, but that doesn't mean the parks are anywhere near capacity.

Disney has been aggressive in boosting attendance during otherwise slow periods. They've added countless marathon events, expanded the Garden and Food fests, Pirate & Princess parties, free dining in the fall, and so on. The days of seeing a 15-minute wait for Space Mountain on a Monday afternoon are pretty much gone...and Disney certainly isn't going to put $2 billion into another theme park just so we can return to those levels.

We were at WDW about a month ago--right on the cusp of Spring Break. Sure the crowds were much greater than when we started taking our kids in 2002. But we got to the parks early, used FastPass judiciously, and never waited more than 15 minutes for any attraction (Great Movie Ride was the longest wait.)

I grew up within driving distance of a highly-regarded amusement park called Cedar Point. I have many memories of spending 1 1/2 to 2 hours in line for a single ride on their latest-and-greatest attraction. I've never had a Disney experience that came close to mirroring those summers at CP.

 

[Maribel]

One thing I wish Disney offered - a 1 park AP. When we visit WDW, it would not bother me at all to skip the other parks just as long as we could go to Epcot. I just love the atmosphere of wandering WS plus the restaurants. Another alternative would be a special evening pass, so you could at least go and eat at the WS restaurants.

Move to Florida.
Florida residents can get an annual pass that allow access to epcot after 4.

 

[dianeschlicht]

WOW. If I were staying offsite, I'd be fuming.

Last time we were there for New Years Eve (2 years ago), there were HORDES of people standing in line at Epcot guest services doing exactly that! They were all staying off site and were hopping mad that they couldn't get into Epcot at 2 PM on New Year's Eve. Mostly it's a case of not doing their homework before taking the trip. It doesn't take much research to find that information out, and you can easily adjust your schedule to arrive early when that is a risk. It's one reason I never advise anyone to stay off site. That is especailly true at popular holiday times.

 

[Starr W.]

IIRC, there are four phases to the park's operating status:

1. Everyone is allowed in.
2. Only guests using WDW transportation are permitted in. Cars are turned-around before they enter the parking lots or TTC.
3. Only WDW resort guests are permitted in.
4. No additional guests are admitted.

Phased closures usually only last a few hours. Typically a park might hit Phase 2 or 3 around 10am - 2pm, but once some guests start leaving the park they start going back toward Phase 1.

The closures usually happen sometime during the Christmas season. Ironically, this past year (Christmas '07) seemed to have the fewest closures reported in recent memory.



Not much Disney can do. It's like any other business that faces issues of maximum capacity. A ballpark only has so many seats. A movie theater can only sell so many tickets.

Like I said a few posts ago, I don't think the crowds are becoming inappropriately large. Certainly they are larger than the "off-season" crowds that many have gotten used to over the last 6-7 years, but that doesn't mean the parks are anywhere near capacity.

Disney has been aggressive in boosting attendance during otherwise slow periods. They've added countless marathon events, expanded the Garden and Food fests, Pirate & Princess parties, free dining in the fall, and so on. The days of seeing a 15-minute wait for Space Mountain on a Monday afternoon are pretty much gone...and Disney certainly isn't going to put $2 billion into another theme park just so we can return to those levels.

We were at WDW about a month ago--right on the cusp of Spring Break. Sure the crowds were much greater than when we started taking our kids in 2002. But we got to the parks early, used FastPass judiciously, and never waited more than 15 minutes for any attraction (Great Movie Ride was the longest wait.)

I grew up within driving distance of a highly-regarded amusement park called Cedar Point. I have many memories of spending 1 1/2 to 2 hours in line for a single ride on their latest-and-greatest attraction. I've never had a Disney experience that came close to mirroring those summers at CP.

I too grew up within driving distance to Cedar Point(actually still live within an 1hr of CP). I guess that's why I have never thought Thanksgiving crowd were that bad, it's pretty much like a summer weekend trip to CP. And yes I did stand for 1.5 hrs or so to ride the Magnum when it opened. I think they tried a FP type system, but they stopped it. Even the smaller rides you can wait for a longer time than at WDW.

I can't believe the ticket prices for CP now! Sound like my DDad, "I remember when you could get in for $30."

 

[jana]

Disney's putting a massive investment into Disneyland California, while that isn't WDW, it should reduce the stress in the Florida park as fewer people on the West Coast choose Florida over California.

Things it could do to ease the burdens.
1) If the parks are busier ( companies making more money) they will be able to remain open later, spreading the traffic a little.
2) They could do more with Extra Magic Hours. A second park a day with EMH) , making staying on property more of a bonus.
3) Open another water park ( although with Aquatica opening recently there may not be quite as much demand) The water parks are much cheaper (smaller) but with both BB +TL regularly closing due to capacity in the summer last year the demand was there. That would reduce some of the Theme park over crowding.
4) More "special events" like Pirates+Princess,MNSSHP and Christmas special evenings.

I'll accept that, on the surface, Universals 7 day ticket at under $100 looks a great deal, however there is only really 2 maybe 3 full days worth of entertainment. Disney's 7 day ticket may be more than triple the cost, but provides a full 7 days of entertainment.

I think this spring has been very busy, without being quite as manic as other years due to Easter falling so early. It seems that many school districts have chosen from a wider range of dates for their spring break holidays and as a result there hasn't been any slow times at all since the beginning of March.

As has been said, the parks have a capacity and if they reach those capacities Disney has no choice but to close them. Disney is also a business and has the right that when it is close to reaching capacity it can ( and should) make sure those customers that are staying at Disney resorts have the best opportunity to gain entry to the parks. It is after all some of the reason that those guests pay a premium to stay at a Disney resort.

I believe if Disney uses the "busy parks" issue wisely it can boost it's bottom line by making on property benefits more of a deciding factor in people's choices for where they stay.

P.S. I think Annual pass holders also are allowed in during phase 2 and maybe 3 .