Is DVC Undervalued?

In my years here, I've seen people justify some financially downright STUPID decisions with the "but...MEMORIES" excuse. If you can afford it, and it fits your style, you don't need to justify anything to anyone - go for it. Even if its not nearly as much fun as my idle cash - which is not idle - its an investment in being able to travel around Europe as my husband and I back off on our careers.

I don't think we see things much differently other than my point about idle cash.

I'm comparing having cash that is truly idle and using part of it to purchase into DVC. Your idle cash is earmarked for traveling around Europe which is not the same thing, although I would agree that it is a fun way to spend money.
 
The "rate of inflation" is not used to reflect the time value of money of a particular investment nor should it, no matter how many people you know that may misinterpret it this way.
DVC is a tool to preserve capital, not an something to provide investment-rate returns. Any financial portfolio should contain a mix of risk and goals. If everything was measured based on opportunity cost, we'd all live in tents and each beans and rice.
 
There are just too many variable out there to making a good educated guess on the value. One being future market value. The big one for me is annual dues. Disney makes the rules…so one year your paying $6 a point and then the next thing you know your paying $18. It is hard to predict the future. For me personally, I take all the emotions out of my purchases. If you are looking at a Disney vacation every year for the rest of your life…then it is a great way to pay for your vacations (again in my opinion). I consider it to be on the risky side if your just looking at "investing" and want to make money. For me, I keep a spreadsheet of all my money spent (contract price, closing cost, and dues) and a column of the value I am getting. (I'm an accountant and I know how nerdy that just sounded). So ask me in 2057 on how well I did. LOL. One thing that makes me feel better personally is that this asset can be liquidated. It is not as liquid as cash or investments…but still can be liquidated…even if the process is slow as molasses!
 
DVC is a tool to preserve capital, not an something to provide investment-rate returns. Any financial portfolio should contain a mix of risk and goals. If everything was measured based on opportunity cost, we'd all live in tents and each beans and rice.

If your financial approach to DVC is to use it as a tool to preserve capital and that works for you; then great, you've accomplished your goal! That's not my financial approach to DVC in the least; I can preserve capital with a lot less risk. The numbers have to "work" in each contract I'm involved in, otherwise I won't purchase it; I'd just rent points! Understanding that those "investment-rate returns" you site above generated from the time value of money are real opportunity costs associated with a DVC purchase is extremely important to new forum members that may be considering a purchase and they're definitely important to my purchase analysis. That's why we don't advocate buying direct in most cases or paying a 40-50% premium for a resort via resale. It's too hard to achieve ROC and definitely ROI. I haven't seen anyone suggest that DVC is going to return extreme financial gains, but in calculating whatever gain it does generate, the time value of money must be accurately accounted for as an opportunity cost. I'm interested in ensuring members get accurate information...that's all. There are many members here who are doing far more than preserving capital while taking wonderful vacations at the same time and I applaud them!

By the way, everything IS measured in opportunity costs whether one chooses to ignore them or not. Understanding what those costs are and being comfortable with them within one's budget is what prevents financial ruin. I had steak tonight in my house.....I know, I could have invested the money instead, but I'm comfortable with the opportunity costs associated with my food and housing budget!!
 

By the way, everything IS measured in opportunity costs whether one chooses to ignore them or not. Understanding what those costs are and being comfortable with them within one's budget is what prevents financial ruin. I had steak tonight in my house.....I know, I could have invested the money instead, but I'm comfortable with the opportunity costs associated with my food and housing budget!!

And just for fun - and in the interest of illustrating opportunity cost - if you don't want to gain weight, the calories spent on the steak were an opportunity cost that will have you skipping ice cream - or taking a walk - tonight. You chose steak over fish or lamb or a nice tofu curry - each of those things are an opportunity cost - not in money, but rather in how much food one can reasonably consume. I have opportunity cost with time, I'm here, not reading the novel I'm in the midst of. If I vacation at Disney, I'm not vacationing in Boston or Mexico - a opportunity cost where the currency is time.

Opportunity cost in this way is critical to evaluating DVC - especially when the currency is your time. For most of us, we'll only get a few weeks of travel type vacation every year - and if you spend it at Disney all the time, you aren't spending it other places. That might be exactly what you want to do, but be aware of it. Some of us members have only bought enough points for half or a third of our travel vacations to be at Disney - choosing to spend time in other locations. Don't trap yourself by only recognizing that "cost" five years from now.
 
There are no shortages of posts asking/exploring if DVC is worth the cost but how about the question of if a DVC contract is actually undervalued?

I look at a contract at the Grand Californian which is by no means cheap, but in comparison to paying the cash rate we break even in about 10 years...but, after 10 years we will probably have a contract that can be sold for close to what we paid. Or after 10 years we are vacationing for the cost of our MF.

Also, someone could buy into a property like SSR and rent out the points. Barring a severe drop in value the rate of return in our low interest rate environment is relatively good.

So, in general are DVC resale contracts at fair value, overvalued, or undervalued?
Currently no way, likely overvalued simply because it's Disney and many will make decisions with their heart more than their head. One might have been able to make the argument when SSR, AKV and BWV were under $50 a points a few years ago. IMO it's inflated partly due to the hype of VGF and the Poly. There is risk to owning and a lot more risk if one is financing the vacations in anyway. IMO comparing to rack rates for DVC is a poor benchmark. The 2 best comparisons are what one would have spent without owning DVC and what it would cost to rent privately compared to owning. Even the most conservative of evaluations is close to best case scenario, there is a lot more that can go wrong than any upward potential. IMO one needs to receive a 20% discount or a 20% additional value compared to one of the 2 benchmarks I mentioned above. Even comparing to hotel rooms one needs to assume a modest discount, usually 20% also. One should also consider the Time Value of Money. Having such money in low interest bearing accounts like a money market is a function of choices, not of return. Personally I think one should consider PART of any money as long term investments at market rates. I use 50% short term (1%) and 50% long term (8% after taxes which I see as conservative) and an inflation rate of 4% for cash rooms, rental costs and dues. That assumes a resale purchase at a cheaper resort. For a more expensive property like VGF or the Poly, I'd use more 25% short/75% long or similar depending on specifics. I also use a return of investment timeline of 10 yrs, that's about the longest one can predict a good outcome. After that the risks start to overtake the benefit.
 
Currently no way, likely overvalued simply because it's Disney and many will make decisions with their heart more than their head. One might have been able to make the argument when SSR, AKV and BWV were under $50 a points a few years ago. IMO it's inflated partly due to the hype of VGF and the Poly. There is risk to owning and a lot more risk if one is financing the vacations in anyway. IMO comparing to rack rates for DVC is a poor benchmark. The 2 best comparisons are what one would have spent without owning DVC and what it would cost to rent privately compared to owning. Even the most conservative of evaluations is close to best case scenario, there is a lot more that can go wrong than any upward potential. IMO one needs to receive a 20% discount or a 20% additional value compared to one of the 2 benchmarks I mentioned above. Even comparing to hotel rooms one needs to assume a modest discount, usually 20% also. One should also consider the Time Value of Money. Having such money in low interest bearing accounts like a money market is a function of choices, not of return. Personally I think one should consider PART of any money as long term investments at market rates. I use 50% short term (1%) and 50% long term (8% after taxes which I see as conservative) and an inflation rate of 4% for cash rooms, rental costs and dues. That assumes a resale purchase at a cheaper resort. For a more expensive property like VGF or the Poly, I'd use more 25% short/75% long or similar depending on specifics. I also use a return of investment timeline of 10 yrs, that's about the longest one can predict a good outcome. After that the risks start to overtake the benefit.

I would question the idea that a return of 8% after tax is conservative. One would need to be prepared for a lot of volatility and be prepared to hold on for a long time to realistically achieve a long term return of 8% after tax.

Of course I've never said that DVC makes sense financially if a person is going to use long term investment dollars. For me when using idle cash the purchase makes much more sense, also because it is from my idle cash and not long term investment dollars from which I pay for my annual Disney trip.
 
I would question the idea that a return of 8% after tax is conservative. One would need to be prepared for a lot of volatility and be prepared to hold on for a long time to realistically achieve a long term return of 8% after tax.

Of course I've never said that DVC makes sense financially if a person is going to use long term investment dollars. For me when using idle cash the purchase makes much more sense, also because it is from my idle cash and not long term investment dollars from which I pay for my annual Disney trip.


8% is very conservative. I've had no problem with over 12% over the past 30 years, even with the volatility of two stock market crashes in that time. And of course you hold for a long time and ride out volatility. If you aren't going to do those things, don't invest in stock.
 
. . . but in comparison to paying the cash rate we break even in about 10 years...but, after 10 years we will probably have a contract that can be sold for close to what we paid. Or after 10 years we are vacationing for the cost of our MF

So, in general are DVC resale contracts at fair value, overvalued, or undervalued?

I think a better question is: Are Disney's [cash] room costs overvalued? Yep.
 
8% is very conservative. I've had no problem with over 12% over the past 30 years, even with the volatility of two stock market crashes in that time. And of course you hold for a long time and ride out volatility. If you aren't going to do those things, don't invest in stock.

Congrats on averaging over 12% return for over 30 years, you are in a very rare class of investors. Your results are not typical, nor realistic for the average investor.
 
I would question the idea that a return of 8% after tax is conservative. One would need to be prepared for a lot of volatility and be prepared to hold on for a long time to realistically achieve a long term return of 8% after tax.

Of course I've never said that DVC makes sense financially if a person is going to use long term investment dollars. For me when using idle cash the purchase makes much more sense, also because it is from my idle cash and not long term investment dollars from which I pay for my annual Disney trip.
As Crisi said but I did qualify as long term (5 yrs of more) and that one would leave it alone is an assumption. The only people who followed that philosophy and lost money in 2008 were there the ones that jumped ship. There has been as much or more volatility in the housing market as well chosen investments over the years. But you can chose your own number though I'd see 8% before taxes as the floor given the other assumptions of appropriate investing, long term. As a comparison having money in a MM or similar is a guaranteed loss of 2-3% yearly, also not a good prospect from an investment standpoint. Personally I'm opposed to having a significant amount of just cash sitting around not earmarked and not as a cushion for emergencies but I could see using a car fund or similar and saving up extra to replace the monies used or just saving extra a couple of years to buy DVC.
 
Congrats on averaging over 12% return for over 30 years, you are in a very rare class of investors. Your results are not typical, nor realistic for the average investor.
They may not be typical but the reasons are different than most would think. It's because most don't put the effort on the front side to make good choices and they do the worst possible thing, listen to the news and pull out when things seem rocky.
 
They may not be typical but the reasons are different than most would think. It's because most don't put the effort on the front side to make good choices and they do the worst possible thing, listen to the news and pull out when things seem rocky.

I don't doubt that you have invested wisely but you also have to realize that the last thirty years have been an extraordinary time for both the US Equity and Bond Markets.

I too have enjoyed fantastic returns that have enabled me to do many things, but I can't give myself all the credit when we've almost had practically a perpetual bull market. Outsized market returns tend to make everyone feel like an "expert" when in fact most have benefited greatly from things out of their control.
 
I don't doubt that you have invested wisely but you also have to realize that the last thirty years have been an extraordinary time for both the US Equity and Bond Markets.

I too have enjoyed fantastic returns that have enabled me to do many things, but I can't give myself all the credit when we've almost had practically a perpetual bull market. Outsized market returns tend to make everyone feel like an "expert" when in fact most have benefited greatly from things out of their control.
30 yrs is a pretty good track record for me but it actually goes back far beyond that time. IIRC the S&P 500 return through it's life is over 10%. A large part of the point was that it really just takes effort, commitment and perseverance not much smarts to do long term investing. The alternative isn't very attractive. If you listen to the news too much all the makes sense is food, guns and supplies, even cash isn't helpful in that situation.
 
So, in general are DVC resale contracts at fair value, overvalued, or undervalued?
I value a DVC purchase by comparing it to what it would cost to rent the same thing from some other owner. To do that, I come up with a first-year "total cost" per point value by (a) amortizing the purchase price across the RTU horizon and (b) adding the dues to that figure.

There are two ways to do the amortization. One is to estimate what you think your opportunity cost is on the purchase price, and use that as your interest rate. The problem with that is that you can pick pretty much any rate you want to get the answer you want. The other is to instead solve for the break-even interest rate that values the purchase exactly the same as the rental costs, and decided if that "rate of return" on your purchase is worth the expense vs. just investing the purchase price, and renting as you go.

Take SSR as an example. Current rental costs are about $12.50 pp, give or take. Dues are 5.17, so that leaves a residual value of $7.33. Purchase prices seem to be hovering right around $80 on average. The time horizon is roughly 40 years. To amortize $80 over 40 years at a first-year cost of $7.33, you'd be paying an interest rate of about 8.9%. In the current investment market, a 9% after-tax return probably requires that you take on significant risk, so I'd say SSR contracts are slightly under-valued. However, a direct purchase of SSR is $135. You would have to amortize that at 4.5% to get a first-year purchase cost of $7.33. So, I'd say direct purchases are probably slightly over-valued here.

As another example, consider BLT. Rental rates in the Rent/Trade board seem to be about $14pp. Dues are $5.05, leaving a residual value of $8.95. Resales here are going for about $118. Time horizon is 45 years. Break-even amortization rate is about 6.9%, give or take---probably pretty close to a fair deal, maybe even a little under-valued. A developer purchase is $170pp. You'd amortize that at about 4.3%, so again, probably a bit over-valued.
 
For most of us, we'll only get a few weeks of travel type vacation every year - and if you spend it at Disney all the time, you aren't spending it other places. That might be exactly what you want to do, but be aware of it.
This is a really good point, and one of the reasons we ultimately did not buy DVC. We instead bought (resale) timeshares that were significantly less expensive, and in some cases in systems with significantly more options. Our vacation philosophy has been that we'll take an exchange into DVC when it was possible to do so, and when it wasn't---or when we wanted to do something else---we just vacationed elsewhere.
 
Hi there, I would like to one day buy DVC. Does anyone know the average price for a DVC membership?
 
Hi there, I would like to one day buy DVC. Does anyone know the average price for a DVC membership?
There really isn't an "average price". If you buy direct from Disney the minimum contract currently is 50 points but it used to be higher in the past so that could change. You need to look at the point charts to figure out how many you need based on where you intend to stay and what type of room (studio up to 3 bedroom units are options). If you buy direct your resort options are limited to what Disney is currently selling and what they have active wait lists for. If you buy resale you can buy as little as 25 points. Also if you buy resale you will save a lot of money unless you are looking for a brand new resort where not many contracts are being resold yet. The resale market is volatile and apparently a few years ago there were extremely low prices but they have been going up for the past couple years apparently. I can tell you since we started looking in the fall the asking price for smaller contracts (up to 100 points or so) has risen significantly (prob about 20% higher right now) and some brokers websites say that those prices are firm so it would seem that they are actually getting those inflated prices since they are not negotiating. If I were you I would look at the resale search engine and get an idea of what contracts that fit your specific vacation needs are currently listed for and check the ROFR threads for this year to see what they wound up paying. You also typically pay closing costs (a few hundred dollars) and MF (if there are current use year points). Those items are negotiable but based on the current seller's market I wouldn't really count on it. Once you buy the contract you still have to pay MF every year but that varies based on resort and # points. You can look at current costs as well as find how they have previously roses to get an idea of past MF cost inflation.
 



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