Is Disneys Park Ethos changing?

Thanks for the Support Dang.

At least it now looks as if Discovery Island may get used for something according to the Screamscape story (putting 2 and 2 together that is on the Clive Barker story).

Maybe the bosses are getting themselves ready for a hive of activity over the next couple of years (instead of closing down attractions).
 
Hello all. I've never posted before, but this thread could not go untouched.

In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA for one very specific reason. And as debated as the definition of this reason may be, it is simply: theme.

The entire Disney company, and in this case WDW, has an underlying theme and that is magic.

Walt was searching for a name for the MK when Lilly suggested the "Magic Kingdom" because she knew that her husband wanted magic to permeate every experience that guests would have at his theme park. Every attraction in the MK is meant to inspire imagination, creativity, and carefree attitudes that are only attainable though a bit of magic. Dumbo does not fly because evolution has provided wings for him; Dumbo flies because through his wishing and believing in amazing possibilities, he is able to lift off. Walt wanted to take guests back to his home town--not just a geographical transportation--but a magical transformation through time. The Tiki birds who are able to talk, the Pirates who've somehow stumbled off the Spanish Main right into Orlando, and even our nation's presidents--every single one ever elected would not be possible without magic.

Magic is portrayed in Epcot as well. As much as I don't like Ellen DeGeneres, The Universe of Energy deals with the magical realm of dreams. And how could you travel around the world in one afternoon without leaving central Florida--without a bit of magic? Test Track deals with another type of magic-or wizardry and that's the wizardry of technology...we're able to glimpse the intricate work behind automobiles. What seems like magical technology of the future is explored throughout Innoventions. Did anyone think, when WDW opened, that we'd be sending e-postcards through millions of tiny wires, and thousands of computer terminals?

MGM is filled with magic of another type. The magic behind the movies. Disney is a motion picture company. Remember, as Walt said, let us not lose sight of the fact that this was all started by a mouse. It's a bit of magic that lets us "ride the movies", or see the ghosts of the former guests at the Hollywood Tower Hotel, or even "talk" with Steven Tyler. It's magic that allows us a glimpse inside Muppet Labs. How else could these polyester creatures talk?

Finally, the much debated AK. Probably never in my life will I ever ever travel to Africa. But through Disney magic I am able to see a roof thatched by actual thatchers from Africa, I am able to learn about animals from the savannahs from guides who actually grew up on said savannah, and to ride a raft through a landscape in Asia. No zoo I know of goes to the trouble of bringing in permanent employees from nations according to an animal's habitat. Dinosaur is the ultimate magical experience...just try to imagine technology that could take you back in time. Finally, the Tree of Life. Yep. Big and fake. But you're not looking at it correctly if the only thing you see is a big, fake tree. Think of how long it took people to construct it, how much research went into it, the detail of the carvings, the fact that it does look remarkable real. It doesn't have to be slight of hand to be magical. It only has to be beyond the realm of immediate possibility.

IOA. Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical. Dr. Doom's whatever-the-heck, well, that's nothing compared to stepping back "amid the glitz and the glamour of a bustling young movie town." Popeye? Sure, being in the cartoons would be magical, but it's not presented as joining the cartoon world. Compare the Seuss Fish ride to Dumbo and why are the fish flying? Did they have feathers like Dumbo?

Idealistic? Maybe. But remember, that's how Walt wanted everyone to experience DL and WDW--idealistically and through the eyes of a child. Experience the magic.

Jess
 
Dinosaur is the ultimate magical experience...just try to imagine technology that could take you back in time.
Hahahahahahaha...this isn't even worth arguing. Is throwing you in the dark and occassionally shining a black light on a big fake looking dinosaur all it takes to transport you back in time?

Idealistic? Maybe.
Closed minded? Yes. You would have to be to make a statement like "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA"...unless of course you have some real magical ability to see into the future...in which case you shouldn't be posting here, you should be out buying lottery tickets.

Finally, the Tree of Life. Yep. Big and fake. But you're not looking at it correctly if the only thing you see is a big, fake tree. Think of how long it took people to construct it, how much research went into it, the detail of the carvings, the fact that it does look remarkable real.
Who are you to tell me whether or not I'm looking at something 'correctly'? To me it's a big fake tree no matter how long it took to construct. Heck, it took a long time to build Interstate 4...does that make it magical?

Compare the Seuss Fish ride to Dumbo and why are the fish flying? Did they have feathers like Dumbo?
Sure, One Fish Two Fish is a very entertaining, though 'off the shelf' type spinner ride with a very catchy soundtrack and fun elements like the water spray. It is based on a very well known Dr. Suess story, though it doesn't rely on the story to provide it's theme. I'm sure not a single child who rides it questions why the fish can fly...at least not anymore than they would question why an elephant can fly. Dumbo on the other hand has no soundtrack, no extra effects and relies heavily on familiarity with the Dumbo story.

IOA. Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical.
Yes, it is. Have you even been there?

Dr. Doom's whatever-the-heck, well, that's nothing compared to stepping back "amid the glitz and the glamour of a bustling young movie town."
Convenient how you pick the worst IOA has to offer and put it up against one of Disney's best attractions isn't it?

Idealistic? Maybe. But remember, that's how Walt wanted everyone to experience DL and WDW--idealistically and through the eyes of a child. Experience the magic.
What Walt wanted and what Eisner and Co. have done two Disney are two completely different things.
 
has johare ever said anything nice about Disney (or anything else aside from IOA), or the people that enjoy it?
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All I know is as far as my daughter and I are concerned, in the last decade, more magic has been pumped into WDW than ever existed before:
The character dining is EVERYWHERE (and the food is excellent and bottomless)
Characters are everywhere (and you can find them when/where you want them)
LIVE productions are everywhere (compared to the 100% lip-sync crap that used to exist)
MGM opened and has been populated with wonderful attractions for young and old alike.
AK (our favorite park) opened after much planning and with deep theming including the 'indigenous' people, the intense landscaping, the shows (all geared towards the theme), the 'decorated' buildings nestled INTO the landscaping, the accuracy, the little hidden trails, the messages, even the walkways and the big fake tree.
Fantasmic (the quintessential culmination of all themes into one magical show)
Tapestry of Nations/Dreams (with the interaction with the crowd)
The MK parade (where the kids are part of the parade, not just spectators)
Splash Mountain (even if it is tied to a 'politically incorrect' theme, like Pirates is)
Pooh is great (we can watch Pooh, ride Pooh, and eat with Pooh all in a day)
And when we can pull ourselves away from the parks (or it is a rain day) we visit the excellent themed resorts and the new Downtown Disney, and have a great time.
and even if it is only a 'spinny' ride to adults, my daughter loves the new Aladdin ride because it is an 'Aladdin', not because it is a kiddy ride with cartoon dressed up.
And since AK opened, I have noticed that landscaping has improved throughout WDW.
And in the last few years, the Festivals (Food and Flower) at Epcot have been well worth coming up several weekends to experience.

We go to WDW VERY often, and it seems that each trip is as special/magical (or more) than the last trip, and we never get tired of any of it.

And just because Disney decides to close up a few attractions does not take anything away from this.

And AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE, I am far from blinded, in fact I have a web page that describes MANY things that WDW could do to be even better and I have criticized WDW about many things (which deserved criticizing)
 

JeffH,

You must only see what you want to see...just a few posts back in this thread I said "however I still love the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and even parts of MGM. If DisneySea were built here I doubt you would see a complaint from me regarding it. ".

The fact is, I really do like Disney and I even understand that not every new attraction is going to be an 'E-ticket' attraction, however I am also not blind to the fact that Universal did one hell of a job on IOA and that it is every bit the equal of anything over at Disney and IN MY OPINION surpasses what they've done over the past few years...sorry, I honestly don't care for AK one bit. While Universal builds great parks and THEN hotel rooms, Disney seems more focused on building the Hotels first along with Pin Trading Kiosks everywhere. Seems like the majority of people here have a hard time giving any credit to Universal or IOA and at the same time are happy with just about anything Disney throws their way. People have no problem calling IOA a 'coaster park' or comparing it to a Six Flags, yet if AK is refered to as a Zoo some feel it 'ruins a whole thread'. Sound fair to you?

So, even though I'm a bit disappointed in them lately, yes I do like Disney, but at the same time I feel that IOA has one-upped them. As I said before, if Disney Sea were built here I seriously doubt you'd hear a complaint from me...in fact I'd probably be trading in my IOA/USF annual pass for a Disney pass...at least for a year or two.
 
Im the one who started this thread & it looks like I have a lot to answer for!

I think what stands out from all the previous comments is that to many, criticism in any shape/form style of absolutely anything Disney is total blasphemy. Anything Disney does is above reproach. I for one do not prescribe to that view, & wondered if there were others out there who felt, like me, that Disney were no longer setting the standard but were simply being reactive to the actions of the competition rather than proactive.

I read the review of DisneySea at Laughingplace.com & was frankly amazed at what seems to be the amazing, thoughtful attractions & attention to detail that has been poured into that park while WDW has floundered a bit.

It will be interesting to see what Disney does over the next 12 months. Maybe Im a cynic, but Disney has used Disney as a prototype/guinea pig for rides elsewhere at their parks & just maybe so of hte new rides/technology will appear through the smoke in great fanfare late 2002/early to mid 2003. We shall see....
 
I think what stands out from all the previous comments is that to many, criticism in any shape/form style of absolutely anything Disney is total blasphemy
You hit the nail on the head with this one. To some people an insult to Disney is just as bad as if you insulted a family member. In their minds, Disney can do no wrong and nothing any other company ever does will come close. Doesn't make sense now does it.
 
It certainly doesnt.

And here we are - just trying to make sure the Disney Corp doesnt get itself in to the same mess it was in the led to Eisner taking over......

We hav a retailer in the UK called "Marks & Spencer" - you may have heard of it.

They were soimply untouchable - the top of the pile, blue riband, 5 star shop but affordable to all. Beyond criticism. Nations favourite retailer. They got greedy. Started milking money out of their main profitable business into less profitable areas to build them up.

Now M&S is in an absolute mess it may never recover from. It has been surpassed by GAP stores & doesnt seem to be able to make any headway back. Perhaps substitute M&S/GAP for Disney/Vivendi Universal & you get my drfit
 
No, everything Disney does is not right (JinyI), but when something Disney does right is attacked without justification then I (we) react.

"seems more focused on building the Hotels first"...
Walt's original plan was the MK + 5 hotels
the facts are, most of the current hotels were built in the last 10 years, AFTER 3 parks were open and as they opened them they filled quickly. If they weren't in demand, they wouldn't be built. The fact is, we went painfully too long without adaquate hotel 'coverage'. Seems like a VERY intellegent focus to me, even if I rarely stay at them.

"along with Pin Trading Kiosks everywhere"
Little, cheap Pin Trading Kiosks built within the last 2 years hardly qualifies as a 'focus'

"Seems like the majority of people here have a hard time giving any credit to Universal or IOA"
Funny, I rarely read someone say something bad about IOA, my impression is that it is one great park, but that doesn't make Disney bad or getting bad.

"and at the same time are happy with just about anything Disney throws their way."
No, we've all complained plenty about JitYI, Living Seas, the demise of Horizons (and myself World of Motion), Toad, Skyway, lack of WS expansion, the overdue Beastly Kingdom, Doug, but compared to the list above this does not lessen Disney's magic.

"People have no problem calling IOA a 'coaster park' "
This only seems to happen when the coaster nuts try to press WDW into building a coaster park, as if IOA was one.
I never understood this, since it only has 2 coasters (3 if you count DD twice)?!?

"or comparing it to a Six Flags"
Never heard this, I've only heard that if you want a (WDW) coaster park, then go to 6Flags, that's not what Disney is about.

"yet if AK is refered to as a Zoo some feel it 'ruins a whole thread'."
Because it is far more than just a Zoo, it is a Disney Zoo.

"Sound fair to you?"
Yes!
 
I really wish the term “Magic” had never been brought to these boards. “Magic” is entirely subjective. “Magic” has no true definition. “Magic” is mostly used as shorthand for “something that I like”. Everyone’s opinion about what is “magical” for them is correct – it’s only when a personal standard is forced onto others that the “magic” can be wrong.

What makes “good” and “bad” art has been debated since the ancient Greeks and we’ve made very little headway in three thousand years. One can discuss the motives behind creating an attraction, about the execution of the attraction and how it tried to achieve those goals, one can even discuss if the attraction followed the generally “rules” for storytelling or not. But even in those terms, you can’t apply a simple “good” or “bad” judgment.

Both sides of a discussion need to present facts and analysis, not just ending “yes-it-is, no-it-isn’t” banter.
 
To get back on the question, is the Ethos changing? Well, using a couple of JeffH's examples of his magic, these are the places where I see that something is different and it results in a less magical experience for me.

The character dining is EVERYWHERE (and the food is excellent and bottomless)

I used to have the option to eat with Pocahontas, John Smith, Gov. Radcliffe, Meeko (Artist Point, 1995). I used to have the option to eat with Clopin, Meeko, Quasimodo, Aladdin, Genie,(Soundstage Restaurant, 1997). I used to have the option to eat with Prince John, Queen of Hearts, Gov. Radcliffe, Cruella, Evil Queen (1900 Park Fare Dinner, Sept 2000). It used to be really easy to eat with unique characters, now the main option is Cindy's. That is if you can get a reservation. What happened to the variety?

Characters are everywhere (and you can find them when/where you want them)

My last trip in June, the characters in Epcot were confined to a traveling bus instead of appearing regularly in Mexico, Germany, China, Italy, Morocco, France, UK. Epcot is the main place I like to meet & greet with characters because it's more condusive to the laid back exploring unlike the MK (with full ride options) and MGM (where the number of shows, pencil you in to where you have to be a certain time if you want to see them).

MGM opened and has been populated with wonderful attractions for young and old alike.

And the park had a real strong emphasis on the "how" movies are made. But Superstar Television was replaced with a stage show and now there is nothing. Monster Sound Show was replaced with the less adult friendy 1 Saturday Morning, and now has the Drew Carey Show. I agree both shows were stale but all that Superstar needed was new scenes to play, Monster just needed a show that adults would want to follow (the kids would still have thought the funny ways people makes sounds were entertaining.) I really miss the "how" and that's why the Studios is no longer my favorite WDW park.

AK (our favorite park) opened after much planning and with deep theming including the 'indigenous' people, the intense landscaping, the shows (all geared towards the theme), the 'decorated' buildings nestled INTO the landscaping, the accuracy, the little hidden trails, the messages, even the walkways and the big fake tree.

And then what happened? In the Studios first 5 years, we saw Muppets, Beauty & the Beast, Star Tours, Voyage of the Little Mermaid, a Parade, Sorcery in the Sky culminating with Tower of Terror. Animal Kingdom has been open 3 1/2 years, and major attractions take a year or two to install so if they want any by year 5 the ground should be moving, shouldn't it? What have we seen a very beautiful animal trail, a short raft ride, and a spinner and a small coaster are on the way. I look at the Studios additions, I look at AK's additions. I look at the time period MGM was expanded (the recession of the early 90's), and I wonder why is there nothing more in the works for AK?

As a whole. as many new things have been added, there is also a lot of homogeniality where there used to be a lot of variety. I suppose they do that because the character or type of attraction is "proven" and therefore less risk, but you can only do that so far before the excitement of the unexpected falls away.
 
Well JeffH, that's about the most reasonable reply I've read from you in this thread. :)

There are only 2 points on which I disagree...

1) I think Disney is putting too much focus on hotels. I've heard that they are having a hard time filling them this year. In my opinion it would be much better to have them sold out every now and then then leave rooms empty half the year. AKL was probably a good addition, but I really don't think they needed Pop Century.

2) Your quote:
Little, cheap Pin Trading Kiosks built within the last 2 years hardly qualifies as a 'focus'

I could be wrong, but isn't the BIG UGLY HAT...the new FOCUS for the Studios supposed to be the focal point of pin trading?!?
 
I really wish the term “Magic” had never been brought to these boards. “Magic” is entirely subjective. “Magic” has no true definition. “Magic” is mostly used as shorthand for “something that I like”. Everyone’s opinion about what is “magical” for them is correct – it’s only when a personal standard is forced onto others that the “magic” can be wrong.
What makes “good” and “bad” art has been debated since the ancient Greeks and we’ve made very little headway in three thousand years.

So good I had to post it again!
You should see the faces of my freshmen on the first day of school when I ask them "What is art?" and "What is theatre?"...
 
::Jess cautiously tries out the 'quote' function::

Originally posted by johare
Closed minded? Yes. You would have to be to make a statement like "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA"...unless of course you have some real magical ability to see into the future...in which case you shouldn't be posting here, you should be out buying lottery tickets.
Last time I checked "In my mind" signaled an opinion. Composition 101. Additionally, the old maxim about first impressions lasting a life time is not bunk. I'll make an effort to clarify my statement: IN MY MIND, Walt Disney World will always be the MAGICAL place that I remember going to when I was a child...separated far and above IOA IN MY MIND because it was my first experience at a theme park. Nothing can ever replace that.
Who are you to tell me whether or not I'm looking at something 'correctly'? To me it's a big fake tree no matter how long it took to construct.
My mistake and I apologize. When an author writes a novel or an artist paints a painting, he does so for an audience (even if that audience is just himself). The author or the artist, or even the imagineer also creates with an intent. I highly doubt that the WD imagineers' intent was for guests to see the Tree of Life as simply a big, fake tree and discount it. So, this means that you can replace 'correctly' with 'as the creators intended'.
Yes, it is. Have you even been there?
Yes, I have been to IOA's Jurassic Park. I very much enjoyed it and was quite impressed, as well. Hence me saying: "Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical."
Convenient how you pick the worst IOA has to offer and put it up against one of Disney's best attractions isn't it?
Well now, being that Dr. Doom and TofT are both "dropping rides", it seemed logical to compare the different ways that each company went about a similar attraction concept. But hey, maybe my logic is just some twisted form of convenience.

ANYWAY, back to what paulde177jb mentioned...I definitely agree that Disney seems to be (and to have been, for a bit) in a reactionary mode. Especially now in the technology aspect, when you consider the technological advantage that Spiderman has over Disney, the Mouse seems to be forced into the role of 'catch-up' company. Of course, this is from our "onlooker" perspective. I wonder if we had a look behind-the-scenes of WDW planning, would our perspective would be any different?

Jess
 
I'll make an effort to clarify my statement: IN MY MIND, Walt Disney World will always be the MAGICAL place that I remember going to when I was a child...separated far and above IOA IN MY MIND because it was my first experience at a theme park. Nothing can ever replace that.
Had this been your original statement I would not have made the remark about being closed minded, however your exact quote was: "In my mind, Disney will always be separated far and above IOA for one very specific reason. And as debated as the definition of this reason may be, it is simply: theme" and this comes off as a very closed minded statement. As much as I like IOA, I would never assume that something better can't come along. Heck, something better may already have come along...too bad it's on the other side of the planet.

Yes, I have been to IOA's Jurassic Park. I very much enjoyed it and was quite impressed, as well. Hence me saying: "Yep. Jurassic Park, that's pretty magical."
Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic here.

Well now, being that Dr. Doom and TofT are both "dropping rides", it seemed logical to compare the different ways that each company went about a similar attraction concept. But hey, maybe my logic is just some twisted form of convenience
Other than the drop I don't think it's fair to compare these attractions. ToT was designed as a heavily themed 'E-ticket' attraction whereas Doom seems like it was thrown in just to add another attraction to Marvel Superhero Island which already had 2 great 'e-ticket' attractions.

btw: What side of Pittsburg are you from?
 
"I used to have the option to eat with Pocahontas, John Smith, Gov. Radcliffe, Meeko Clopin, Meeko, Quasimodo, Aladdin, Genie, Prince John, Queen of Hearts, Cruella, Evil Queen (1900 Park Fare Dinner, Sept 2000. What happened to the variety?"
Poor attendance, the fact is not everyone gets a chance to dine with the characters as often as others, and when they do they want to dine with the 'big wigs' (the Pooh gang and the Mouse gang).
While although variety has come and gone, the number of character meals still remains as does my original point that we now HAVE character meals to enjoy that we didn't
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The characters in Epcot were confined to a traveling bus instead of appearing regularly in Mexico, Germany, China, Italy, Morocco, France, UK.
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Again, poor attendance (the one thing we enjoyed, being almost alone with most of them), I'm sure, put them on the bus. Why put a character out if almost nobody sees them, while the bus is an 'event' which draws a crowd.
There was a while there a couple of years ago where there seemed to be such a glut of characters everywhere (and to an extent still now) that we started to avoid them. They've been cut back some now and reorganized to be featured more (and therefore, hopefully draw a crowd). It is real sad to see a character standing alone because knowbody cares.
There still is quite a variety, though (throughout WDW). We've spent several hours with the Atlantis crew in the last month, and ran into the Llama last winter, and Cruella a few months ago and now the Bear is out.
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"MGM originals..."
I agree that Superstar and Sound should not sit empty and dark (in the dark), but that still doesn't mean that MGM doesn't offer the best day of entertainment of any of the parks.
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"AK development verses MGM"
I agree that AK SHOULD HAVE build the final focus of the park (Beastly Kingdom) as soon as Asia was built, but it is still a wonderful park and a much better park than MGM was when it first opened.
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"there is also a lot of homogeniality where there used to be a lot of variety. "
Due to demand (for the proven) and lack thereof (for the variety).
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"Less risk"
Actually the variety came before the proven after the variety showed that the demand wasn't there.
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"I've heard that they are having a hard time filling them (the hotels) this year."
Of course they are, we are in the middle of an unexpected economic downturn. When Pop Culture was started, WDW had a hard time providing economy rooms (the bands were filling up the all-star resorts), so that is why they needed to build the Pop-Culture. So what do you expect them to do, stop building it now?
When the economy returns, I'm sure the demand will be greater than ever.
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"I could be wrong, but isn't the BIG UGLY HAT...the new FOCUS for the Studios supposed to be the focal point of pin trading?!?"
No, it was built to the the BIG UGLY new Icon for BIG UGLY MGM (like the BIG UGLY FAKE tree at AK) and the focus for BIG UGLY Walt's BIG UGLY 100th Birthday celebration, and they will just happen to sell BIG UGLY pins there.
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I do believe, though, that Disney needs to address some of the areas that have been left empty, forgotten, or left to rot...
Beastly Kingdom ASAP!!! and a character lunch.
Superstar TV (and it's original concept with either TV or Movies)
Put Atlantis or Little Mermaid into the lagoon at MK
Replace the barrel bridge and rifles on Tom Sawyer's Island
Expand the capacity of MK by adding Shadowland behind Fantasyland and moving the racetrack to the other side of the train track.
Add more (new) culture to the WS even if it means adding multi-national-pavilions, where 2-4or6 nations share the same courtyard and stage and you can enjoy a variety of foods at the same table. This would enable a lot of poor countries afford the sponsorship by sharing it with other nations.
 
You know, I have been reading these types of post for sometime now. I just returned from a 7 day trip to WDW staying at the Polynesian. I have really weighed what people say in here and after thinking about it have come to the following conclusions. It is definitely a different a WDW than what I grew up with, but different does not have to be worse or better. Different is just different. Many things are still the same and still great. The polynesian is still one of my favorite places on earth. It is just as wonderful as the first time I went.

Many rides are different, some of my favorites are gone. I loved Mr. Toad, but who under 30 really knows much about Wind and Willows anymore? It is a shame, but it is true. The Pooh ride is very good. My nephew loves it. I took an objective look at it this time and it is a really good attraction. I also really enjoy the new journey into imagination ride at EPCOT. We spent an hour "playing" in the area following the ride. I really thought that was a disney quality ride. They even worked figment in abit.

The shows are still incredible. I went to Diamond Horseshoe and it is still great. And what about Fantasmic? Unbelievable...everytime I go it is like the first time. Spectromagic, Tapestry of Nations...shows like Tarzan Rocks. I don't know how you get much better.

Anyway, for me WDW is different in someways but still great in everyway!!!!
 















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