Is Disney World ready for a fifth theme park?

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Disney park attendance has been relatively flat in recent years and it's taken deep discounts just to get there. Disney even went so far as to change its reporting methodology to hide the struggles of WDW.

Sure there would be some gains to be realized through locals who visit this theoretical new park. But once you get beyond that, the resorts simply start cannibalizing one another. It's no different than the arguments against a 5th theme park--why would Disney build more when they can earn similar revenues with what they have now?

In the end, they would be relying on new business from locals to drive the new park. I don't see that revenue as being sufficient to prompt billions in up-front investment plus hundreds-of-millions in annual operating costs.

Like nytimez said, there's no reason for Disney to build more when they can bring in similar dollars with what they have now. In a perfect world, attendance (and profits) will continue to grow but that growth will happen within the existing 6 domestic parks, not 7 or 8 or 9.

Building more parks in the US is akin to stepping over a dollar to pick up a nickel. Too many expenses required to earn a small amount of new revenue.

I'm not arguing with you, BUT if attendance is so flat...why do the parks seem so much for full than in years past?

Has Disney gotten that good at filling the parks during low season, OR are they staffing the parks less, and lowering the capacity per hour of the rides?

Just curious.

 

[ASteelersMidget]

I'm not arguing with you, BUT if attendance is so flat...why do the parks seem so much for full than in years past?

Has Disney gotten that good at filling the parks during low season, OR are they staffing the parks less, and lowering the capacity per hour of the rides?

Just curious.

1 word my friend.

BOTH​

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not arguing with you, BUT if attendance is so flat...why do the parks seem so much for full than in years past?

Has Disney gotten that good at filling the parks during low season, OR are they staffing the parks less, and lowering the capacity per hour of the rides?

Just curious.

first...attendance has been down or flat...

if you were there in the real estate funny money bubble in 05-06-07...you would know what crowded was...

second...disney has always taken their toys and gone home when they're not happy...they are very much like newborns in their behavior.

by that...i mean any...ANY...excuse to not fill vacancies, reduce entertainment offerings, go on low occupancy in hotels, reduce hours and staffing...they take it.

so yes - you are being had. they're aren't crowded...they are making you wait to save a couple of minimum wage jobs...

Let's remember: they want full parks...not only because it means they aren't "wasting" their labor...but because you are a captive audience in that park. you've paid a ton to get in, and they know that 99% of the people...no matter how turned off they are by the lines...won't leave.

they stay and wait it out...and when that gets old (by about 11 am)...then what happens?

no lines in the giftshops...all who come to THAT happy place...spend.
or eat...or do things they wouldn't do (involving spending money) because splash isn't worth 2 hours...

Come on, this thread has wagged the dog 10 times over...its pretty simple.
They want to screw you out of your money...and a new park won't do that anymore effectively.

The prosecution rests.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

and by the way...another reason why we won't see new parks...is that we have DESTROYED our middle class...

the ones that started trekking to disneyland in the 50s and WDW in the 70s.

It's gone...we've all killed it or sat passively by as it was being destroyed...and its not coming back.

the closest thing we have to a "middle class" now are low paid attorneys or high earning engineers.

Not exactly the triumph of the free market or the american dream.

In case anybody actually is curious...the United States now ranks 10th in the world in upward economic mobility.
In layman's terms...that makes us 10th in the American Dream. We're like the Oakland A's of the economic world.

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

first...attendance has been down or flat...

if you were there in the real estate funny money bubble in 05-06-07...you would know what crowded was... I was at WDW in 05, 07, and early 08. I also attended in 09, three times in '10, once in '11 and once in '12. I've seen longer lines in 10, 11, & 12.

so yes - you are being had. they're aren't crowded...they are making you wait to save a couple of minimum wage jobs... Those words are a bit harsh!

Let's remember: they want full parks...not only because it means they aren't "wasting" their labor...but because you are a captive audience in that park. you've paid a ton to get in, and they know that 99% of the people...no matter how turned off they are by the lines...won't leave.

Come on, this thread has wagged the dog 10 times over...its pretty simple.
They want to screw you out of your money...and a new park won't do that anymore effectively.

The prosecution rests.

and by the way...another reason why we won't see new parks...is that we have DESTROYED our middle class...I submit that this is not all of the fault of the big, bad corporations, as they did not hold guns to people's heads and make them take drugs, have children out of wedlock, etc.

the ones that started trekking to disneyland in the 50s and WDW in the 70s.

It's gone...we've all killed it or sat passively by as it was being destroyed...and its not coming back.

the closest thing we have to a "middle class" now are low paid attorneys or high earning engineers. Among others... DH is a biologist and I'm a college instructor. We are most definitely in the middle class. Although Dh's parents paid for his education (BS), my parents paid for about 1/2 of my BS, and none of my MBA or PhD (pending). My husband and I paid for those ourselves.

Not exactly the triumph of the free market or the american dream.

In case anybody actually is curious...the United States now ranks 10th in the world in upward economic mobility.
In layman's terms...that makes us 10th in the American Dream. We're like the Oakland A's of the economic world.

The success of Disney and other big corporations is due "in part" by providing products and services that people are willing and able to purchase. Our free market system has its flaws, but it is the best system available.

I agree with you that we should more openly discuss what other countries are doing correctly to increase upward mobility. I think you will find that European countries like Sweden or Norway have much different demographics than we do in the United States, which lead to much different outcomes. The Chinese are doing quite well in creating upward mobility, BUT does not allow for the amount of freedom that we enjoy here in the United States.

Finally, although I think it is great to discuss the role of the government in creating income equality (which is basically what you were doing), I do not believe it is particularly germane to this discussion.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The success of Disney and other big corporations is due "in part" by providing products and services that people are willing and able to purchase. Our free market system has its flaws, but it is the best system available.

I agree with you that we should more openly discuss what other countries are doing correctly to increase upward mobility. I think you will find that European countries like Sweden or Norway have much different demographics than we do in the United States, which lead to much different outcomes. The Chinese are doing quite well in creating upward mobility, BUT does not allow for the amount of freedom that we enjoy here in the United States.

Finally, although I think it is great to discuss the role of the government in creating income equality (which is basically what you were doing), I do not believe it is particularly germane to this discussion.

Just to clarify: I said nothing of the government creating income equality...in fact, they have done quite the opposite by removing key safeguards - by acting less...which many with no wealth or no shot at it vote for against their interests. This is not a pro-socialist take...nothing of the sort...actually.

Second...you sound middle class...but at the cost of what seems to be decades of schooling. That will be impossible in the future...unless you are wealthy. The cost of education spiraling out of control and diminishing return will ensure that.

Third...Disney labor is almost entirely minimum wage. That is not an exaggeration nor a secret.

And finally...WDW attendance has fallen over the last for years...except ironically animal kingdom...which is near flat. The other 3 parks have dipped.
2007 was the highest year recorded. And heavy discontinuing has been standard since.

Again...no 5th park

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Just to clarify: I said nothing of the government creating income equality...in fact, they have done quite the opposite by removing key safeguards - by acting less...which many with no wealth or no shot at it vote for against their interests. This is not a pro-socialist take...nothing of the sort...actually.

Second...you sound middle class...but at the cost of what seems to be decades of schooling. That will be impossible in the future...unless you are wealthy. The cost of education spiraling out of control and diminishing return will ensure that.

Third...Disney labor is almost entirely minimum wage. That is not an exaggeration nor a secret.

And finally...WDW attendance has fallen over the last for years...except ironically animal kingdom...which is near flat. The other 3 parks have dipped.
2007 was the highest year recorded. And heavy discontinuing has been standard since.

Again...no 5th park

The fact of the matter is that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to start a theme park ride, thus...minimum wage. Plus, how much would admission be for WDW if people handling rides were making big bucks?

 

[skiingfast]

I dont see any reason why disney would ever open a 5th park ar WDW

And there were people like you who said the same about a 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate.

 

[ASteelersMidget]

Can we please avoid politics on here. This is my "escape" from politics.

The fact is this. If we seriously think that disney is adding a 5th park that will open in the next ten years IMO you are crazy. We heard about Avatar land in 2011 and that won't be open until 2016, assuming they don't delay it. This is after they spent the money to do a major renovation at DCA and adding the FLE.

Will they ever open a 5th park, Who knows, we could get another egomaniac like Eisner! Will it be in the next 10 years, No.

 

[chartle]

And there were people like you who said the same about a 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate.

But there are always limits and saturation points. The limit here is the number of days in the week.

Right now there is barely enough time in an average vacation to see all 4 parks and some other options like water parks and DQ.

Unless they can come up with some sort of unique venue for some untapped market, there is no need for a fifth park.

Yes posters always say things like Nightly Kingdom but that's a lot of money to build a park for only a few hours and Disney has already figured out that doesn't work aka Pleasure Island.

And yes you and others on these boards can say I've seen it all and won't come back until there is a new park. Well there are tons of people that don't go every year or multiple times a year like the posters on these boards.

In fact there are tons of people that have never gone, they are born every second of the day.

 

[nytimez]

The fact of the matter is that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to start a theme park ride, thus...minimum wage. Plus, how much would admission be for WDW if people handling rides were making big bucks?

No one's saying they should make big bucks. They could pay these people just a little better and have happier and more passionate employees without losing much off the bottom line.

But there's a larger issue here: Of course kids just starting out at the park shouldn't be paid much. It's a first-time job for a kid. BUT... these days, after years of purging senior employees who earned just a little too much, that kid's boss is now also a kid making barely more than minimum wage.

Try it some time -- ask to speak to a manager.

As a result, you do two things: First, you send a message to that kid that there's no longer any real upward mobility at Disney. That used to be a big selling point -- work here, bring passion to your job and you can advance through the company. Now, you can get rewarded with an extra 35 cents an hour.

Second, you no longer have passionate and experienced people leading their teams. You have what $8.67 an hour gets you.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And there were people like you who said the same about a 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate.

you know better...

obviously the times and the nature of media/ entertainment has changed dramatically.

the internet was kinda a neat "tinker toy" when AK was under construction and even when it opened.

a lot has happened since.


people will always go to disney world...but the wealth of high tech at home, along with a large portion of the population (at least here in the us) either treading water or falling behind - relative to inflation and cost of goods...makes it unlikely that enough demand can be found to justify more gates anytime soon.

they kinda "topped off" wdw on a longterm plan with ak and now they flesh out the property with timeshares...and they'd need double the DVC rooms to even think about more gates.

There actions since AK...both by evil Mikey and $5 suit Bobby...have been building where they see the wholes being present - europe, china, DL as a multi day destination, Japan as a multi day...

next move will be somewhere outside of china...but not in florida...rest assured. If such a place exists. This may be the LAST disney park ever being built in shanghai...its a distinct possibility.

Brazil is probably the logical next move...if they even have one. But don't bet on it.


Now...all said...we know that we can have substantial reinvestment in the four parks and the area formerly known as pleasure island and make a lot of extra things for us to look forward to...
...heck, it might even work out where disney prolongs the average stay past the 7 day mark...which they'd sign up for now if you offered it to them.

so all is not so glum...but 5th park is just not realistic.

IF this were 1984...0r 1994 and the leadership was still around that had a bit of wackiness and fun-loving nature to them at that time...maybe.

but it is just a suit operation now. it has to make suit sense...it doesn't in the short or medium term.

 

[chartle]

My thinking wasn't so much a park as an indoor venue similar to Great Wolf Lodge or Kalahari. Living in the midwest, we usually spend a night or two at a place like this during the cold weather months. The indoor waterpark is the centerpiece of the resort. Kalahari in particular has over a dozen different types of body slides and rafting tubes. It even has a Crush N Gusher-style coaster plus wave pool, lazy river, cabana rentals, hot tubs, etc.

A similar Disney hotel could leverage some theme park technology just to give guests a taste of the theme parks. Integrating things like one Star Tours ride vehicle or a small 3D theater would add to the uniqueness. Even a small-scale dark ride like Buzz Lightyear would be fairly cheap to staff and have substantial re-rideability. (Don't kill me on the specifics--those are just a few examples off the top of my head.)

This is solely my opinion but I don't see such a venue as cannibalizing much business from WDW or DL. I can't see many people forgoing a trip to WDW because they can experience one or two slimmed-down attractions closer to their home. Meanwhile it could help introduce more guests to Disney-type attractions and encourage trips to the theme parks.

They already tried that and failed with Disney Quest.

I guess you didn't know that DQ was meant to do exactly what you proposed. There was one built in Chicago and they broke ground for one in Philly.

The concept never caught on and the one in Chicago closed I think before it was a year old and the one in Philly never happened.

There were a number of issue that mostly dealt with the cost of admission and that it just didn't draw enough locals and it also didn't become destination venue like a full park would.

 

[mcd2745]

They already tried that and failed with Disney Quest.

I guess you didn't know that DQ was meant to do exactly what you proposed. There was one built in Chicago and they broke ground for one in Philly.

The concept never caught on and the one in Chicago closed I think before it was a year old and the one in Philly never happened.

There were a number of issue that mostly dealt with the cost of admission and that it just didn't draw enough locals and it also didn't become destination venue like a full park would.

Maybe it didn't work in that form, but that doesn't mean that it can't work at all. I'm going to assume those were stand-alone locations. I imagine it could work as part of a hotel/resort. And I imagine they would not work inside downtown areas of cities like Chicago or Philly or any other major city. Locations would have to be an hour or two outside the cities - think of a location such as Great Wolf's Poconos location where you have the Philly & NYC markets within 2 hour drives. If they had resorts/hotels with a similat set up with a small indoor water park and a smaller scale DQ, throw in some character meals and other Disney "touches" and it can work. The GWL in the Poconos charges more than $500 a night for a room (and they are nothing special) most weekends - even more at times like President's weekend - and much to my amazement, are usually at 95% or more occupancy. Now I know it is not the same for their other locations as the Poconos location seems to charge on average approx 30% more than thier other locations do (every business loves to exploit that NY market!). However, it sure seems like there is a market out there for places like this.

 

[OldsDr]

But there are always limits and saturation points. ....

Duplicate

 

[OldsDr]

But there are always limits and saturation points. ....

Yes posters always say things like Nightly Kingdom but that's a lot of money to build a park for only a few hours and Disney has already figured out that doesn't work aka Pleasure Island.

...

Sorry but this is a little inaccurate, PI worked extremely well for about 15 years, until they started removing elements and cheapening it like they do with a lot of things.

If anything PI shows on a small scale what happens when you do what they are doing to the Big 4 parks(they keep removing small aspects of the experience that individually don't mean much). However, remove a little here and little there and all of those little things eventually add up to create a lackluster experience

I agree there is no need for a 5th Theme park and PI is never coming back no matter how much I wish for it. But Pi proves nothing except what happens to a successful venture when you try and squeeze it too hard and trim a little here and a little there and build something on the side of it that doesn't fit that well with it. It may not fit into their current business plan, but it was a success.

Sorry for the diversion

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney quest was built at the worst possible time...

If it were 1985...when the time was right to build it...it would have done great.

but in 1997-1999, when home computers, gaming systems, and the internet accessibility went into hyperdrive...that was the wrong time to put in a room of machines with dollar slots on them...or a large admission fee.

why would a kid go to disney quest for 35 bucks a day when they could play online against people around the globe and then fire up the playstation 2 when that got old?

just bad timing...but disney is notoriously slow to capitalize. why build rides based on movies that are 5,10,20+ years old?

can't wait for the little mermaid ride at MK...but WHERE YA BEEN SINCE 1989?!?

whens that monsters inc coaster coming? the 5th anniversary of the SEQUEL?

 

[ASteelersMidget]

Disney quest was built at the worst possible time...

If it were 1985...when the time was right to build it...it would have done great.

but in 1997-1999, when home computers, gaming systems, and the internet accessibility went into hyperdrive...that was the wrong time to put in a room of machines with dollar slots on them...or a large admission fee.

why would a kid go to disney quest for 35 bucks a day when they could play online against people around the globe and then fire up the playstation 2 when that got old?

just bad timing...but disney is notoriously slow to capitalize. why build rides based on movies that are 5,10,20+ years old?

can't wait for the little mermaid ride at MK...but WHERE YA BEEN SINCE 1989?!?

whens that monsters inc coaster coming? the 5th anniversary of the SEQUEL?

I really respect your opinion but I just can't let this go. The Playstation 2 had no online capabilities. The Xbox was the only system between the PS2 the GC (gamecube) and the Xbox. (gamer pride lol)

In terms of the MI coaster and a LM ride. Spot on. GIVE ME A NEW COASTER. When I was at disney in august I found that after Spending the 4 summers before that going to places like Hershey Park or Busch Gardens (either BG) and finding I really enjoy the adrenaline rush. I found my self feeling much more tired with the lack of rides that pumped me up.

Disney has been so good in the past about not necessarily making the most thrilling rides but theming them well to make it more exciting. I just wish they would add a few more thrill rides here and there.

 

[tjkraz]

They already tried that and failed with Disney Quest.

I guess you didn't know that DQ was meant to do exactly what you proposed. There was one built in Chicago and they broke ground for one in Philly.

The concept never caught on and the one in Chicago closed I think before it was a year old and the one in Philly never happened.

There were a number of issue that mostly dealt with the cost of admission and that it just didn't draw enough locals and it also didn't become destination venue like a full park would.

DisneyQuest may be the primary reason that Disney is reluctant to venture away from the parks. But it bears almost no resemblance to the type of family-friendly waterpark resorts which have grown increasingly popular in recent years.

DisneyQuest was a glorified arcade. Places like Great Wolf Lodge and Kalahari are legitimate vacation destinations. In addition to lightly themed hotel rooms and the waterpark, other features include an arcade, mini golf, bowling, climbing wall, zipline and multiple restaurants. Kalahari has its own small-scale animal preserve.

We have never visited for more than a day or two but I know of people who spend close to a week at this type of hotel as their family vacation. A basic hotel room runs a couple hundred dollars per night but unlimited waterpark admission is included. It's a far cry from the cost of a WDW or DL vacation, and a welcome local diversion when it's 10 degrees outside.

 

[Faldred]

I really respect your opinion but I just can't let this go. The Playstation 2 had no online capabilities.

The network adapter on the back of my PS2 would like to disagree with you. The capability was there, but it was under-developed given that you had to buy an add-on (I used credit card loyalty points for mine) plus buy a compatible game.