Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

[rteetz]

It wasn't just the end of his career. DLP opened in 1992. And other decisions like the quality of the All Star resorts are certainly open to scrutiny.

DLP is really a good park but has just been poorly maintained. Disney studios on the other hand is a different story. It was a park riser didn't even want but was forced to.

But is it fair to throw all of that on Iger? Where do WDI's designs figure in all of this? Correct me if I'm wrong but the last story I heard about Star Wars-related delays had to do with WDI's designs being too focused on the older films rather than Episode 7 forward.

Right now--after 12 days and $1 B--seems like a pretty good decision to focus on that future...

You are kind of right. The rumor was the WDI plans weren't ambitious enough. Not that they didn't necessarily include episode 7 but it needed more wow. We have yet to see of course if that wow is there.

"Will it be enough?"

What exactly is the alternative? Something tells me DHS and Epcot will survive until the upgrades arrive.

Epcot is really only surviving because of the festivals. DHS is only surviving because did things like frozen summer fun and now the Star Wars events. Things have been rumored for DHS for years if not a decade or longer but nothing has happened. Thankfully things are finally happening but when will they actually be completed. I'm typically very optimistic about these things.

These days, what qualifies as "innovative" in the family-friendly themed entertainment marketplace?

In recent years, Disney has received a lot of attention for things like the interactive characters (Mickey, etc.), advanced robotics, the scale and complexity of water/light/laser shows like World of Color and Rivers of Light, interactive games like Phineas & Ferb, trackless ride systems, variable ride experiences (Star Tours 2).

Even the Mine Train swinging ride vehicles are something that had never been tried before. That feature doesn't make the attraction an instant must-do but it's still an innovation.

If you're expecting Disney to hook riders to robotic arms and whip them in circles faster than ever before, I don't see that happening.

New high tech animatronics. New ride systems. New never before done nighttime spectaculars.

Yes I know about rivers of light and I think it's going to be great but what about shows like fantasmic, wishes and illuminations which have been around for a long time. Even small updates would be welcome.

Mine train was a great concept but unfortunately was cut twice in terms of length.

No I don't expect Disney to do that.

I guess Disney is acting like Apple they are coasting doing the status quo.

Also if like to point out I'm not an Iger hater or anything I do like things he's done.

 

[Eoghann]

It is popular and easy to throw all the blame at Iger for the way Disney is run these days, and after all he is CEO.

But in truth I'm not sure that anyone could really run it very differently because this is what Wall Street demands of a modern CEO. The only exceptions to the rule I can think of are Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos both of whom benefit(ed) from being both visionary and being the company creator. Publicly held companies are all about the stock price, nothing else matters unless as in the case of Google/Alphabet you own the majority of the stock.

I suspect whoever you put in that slot, nothing much changes.

This is also why I think that Wall Street is very bad for society.

 

[rteetz]

It is popular and easy to throw all the blame at Iger for the way Disney is run these days, and after all he is CEO.

But in truth I'm not sure that anyone could really run it very differently because this is what Wall Street demands of a modern CEO. The only exceptions to the rule I can think of are Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos both of whom benefit(ed) from being both visionary and being the company creator. Publicly held companies are all about the stock price, nothing else matters unless as in the case of Google/Alphabet you own the majority of the stock.

I suspect whoever you put in that slot, nothing much changes.

This is also why I think that Wall Street is very bad for society.

I have to agree for the most part. When Staggs gets the job (most likely) I don't think much will change even though some hope it will.

 

[mort1331]

DLP is really a good park but has just been poorly maintained. Disney studios on the other hand is a different story. It was a park riser didn't even want but was forced to.

You are kind of right. The rumor was the WDI plans weren't ambitious enough. Not that they didn't necessarily include episode 7 but it needed more wow. We have yet to see of course if that wow is there.

Epcot is really only surviving because of the festivals. DHS is only surviving because did things like frozen summer fun and now the Star Wars events. Things have been rumored for DHS for years if not a decade or longer but nothing has happened. Thankfully things are finally happening but when will they actually be completed. I'm typically very optimistic about these things.

New high tech animatronics. New ride systems. New never before done nighttime spectaculars.

Yes I know about rivers of light and I think it's going to be great but what about shows like fantasmic, wishes and illuminations which have been around for a long time. Even small updates would be welcome.

Mine train was a great concept but unfortunately was cut twice in terms of length.

No I don't expect Disney to do that.

I guess Disney is acting like Apple they are coasting doing the status quo.

Also if like to point out I'm not an Iger hater or anything I do like things he's done.

Wow if they are just surviving, I would love to own a park that is just surviving and still be in the top 10 attendance in the World. People always have huge expectations of Disney. And when they might be perceived as slipping, well then they are hanging on and will go into foreclosure if they don't come up with anything soon.
They look to me like they know what markets they want, and have the festivals to attract that clientele. This allows them to make the revenue they want. Now just because in some peoples eyes that you need a big ticket item ( change ) to keep people interested, I say the parks that have to keep giving someone new big things are the ones struggling. If you cant hold your clients with the atmosphere then show them a shiny new thing. Its like always discounting, I don't buy from some shops because I know they will have a sale next month, because they always do and have to now.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

It is popular and easy to throw all the blame at Iger for the way Disney is run these days, and after all he is CEO.

But in truth I'm not sure that anyone could really run it very differently because this is what Wall Street demands of a modern CEO. The only exceptions to the rule I can think of are Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos both of whom benefit(ed) from being both visionary and being the company creator. Publicly held companies are all about the stock price, nothing else matters unless as in the case of Google/Alphabet you own the majority of the stock.

I suspect whoever you put in that slot, nothing much changes.

This is also why I think that Wall Street is very bad for society.

I agree with that last part 100%. This really started though when congress and the FTC decided to enact legislation to tie CEO salaries to stock performance.

That said there are still major issues that he has control over that would not be budget busters like a renewed emphasis on service. He also decided rubber bracelets were a betts investment than maintenance and park development so that pretty much tells you all you need to know about his understanding of the theme park business.

 

[rteetz]

Wow if they are just surviving, I would love to own a park that is just surviving and still be in the top 10 attendance in the World. People always have huge expectations of Disney. And when they might be perceived as slipping, well then they are hanging on and will go into foreclosure if they don't come up with anything soon.
They look to me like they know what markets they want, and have the festivals to attract that clientele. This allows them to make the revenue they want. Now just because in some peoples eyes that you need a big ticket item ( change ) to keep people interested, I say the parks that have to keep giving someone new big things are the ones struggling. If you cant hold your clients with the atmosphere then show them a shiny new thing. Its like always discounting, I don't buy from some shops because I know they will have a sale next month, because they always do and have to now.

Ok let me ask you a question. Would Epcot or DHS survive as stand along parks today? Maybe when they first opened but I don't think they do without being in the Disney family. I'd also like to point out those attendance numbers are not official. I have no problem with the festivals but Epcot and DHS won't be able to hold the same attendance 10-20 years from now without doing something. People will start to realize nothing has changed here why keep going back. Epcot just has a lost vision that needs to be refound. DHS as we know is getting the work it needs because without it, it would be slipping if it hasn't started already. Maintenance is also key in this. Look at the paper boy in SSE or the missing Ellen AA in energy adventure. Disney is afraid to take rides down these days because there is so little in those parks. People are already freaking out about the soarin refurb and how there won't be enough to do in Epcot.

Look at Paris. That's the most visited European park but doesn't rank very high on world rankings. Luckily, Disney is now majority owner in Paris and is doing a lot to fix those two parks.

 

[Eoghann]

I agree with that last part 100%. This really started though when congress and the FTC decided to enact legislation to tie CEO salaries to stock performance.

That said there are still major issues that he has control over that would not be budget busters like a renewed emphasis on service. He also decided rubber bracelets were a betts investment than maintenance and park development so that pretty much tells you all you need to know about his understanding of the theme park business.

Well that's a bit misleading since the majority of the "rubber bracelet" investment actually was necessary infrastructure refurbishment. It needed to happen regardless of what work should have been done on rides etc. Though I actually like the magic bands.

 

[Eoghann]

Ok let me ask you a question. Would Epcot or DHS survive as stand along parks today? Maybe when they first opened but I don't think they do without being in the Disney family. I'd also like to point out those attendance numbers are not official. I have no problem with the festivals but Epcot and DHS won't be able to hold the same attendance 10-20 years from now without doing something. People will start to realize nothing has changed here why keep going back. Epcot just has a lost vision that needs to be refound. DHS as we know is getting the work it needs because without it, it would be slipping if it hasn't started already. Maintenance is also key in this. Look at the paper boy in SSE or the missing Ellen AA in energy adventure. Disney is afraid to take rides down these days because there is so little in those parks. People are already freaking out about the soarin refurb and how there won't be enough to do in Epcot.

Nobody goes to Disney World specifically to visit DHS outside of Star Wars weekends (okay there's this one guy...). There may be a few who go to visit Epcot but it's a minority and mostly they show up for Food & Wine.

People overwhelmingly go to visit the Magic Kingdom and then visit the other parks since they are already there. Disney has been coasting on that for years, indeed their whole approach to building those parks has been based around the fact they have the MK with all its rides and appeal already in place.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Well that's a bit misleading since the majority of the "rubber bracelet" investment actually was necessary infrastructure refurbishment. It needed to happen regardless of what work should have been done on rides etc. Though I actually like the magic bands.

I don't mind the magic bands replacing the key to the world card but I don't know that any of the project was a "need to have" and I sure don't see how they can recoup the cost of the project in any way that doesn't negatively impact the consumer. I've also yet to figure out what amazing new data they are going to gleam from this that they didn't already have access to other than which direction I walk in the park and what bathrooms I prefer. In all that I have read in the subject and all the hype about the data I still haven't been able to derive what is new and so exciting to justify the cost.

 

[Eoghann]

I don't mind the magic bands replacing the key to the world card but I don't know that any of the project was a "need to have" and I sure don't see how they can recoup the cost of the project in any way that doesn't negatively impact the consumer. I've also yet to figure out what amazing new data they are going to gleam from this that they didn't already have access to other than which direction I walk in the park and what bathrooms I prefer. In all that I have read in the subject and all the hype about the data I still haven't been able to derive what is new and so exciting to justify the cost.

Honestly most of the cost was just getting Disney's IT infrastructure out of the 1990s. Which had to happen regardless of anything else. People fixate on the Magic Band because that's the public consumer face of it, but the project was about a lot more than that.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

In a sense I think you're right but at the same time Disney is Disney. People from around the world will always go.

I do think Disney will have DHS completed by 2021 in time for their 50th anniversary but I agree that if it takes that long, Universal will capitalize. I think some HS attractions need to start opening by Spring 2018.

Really? I am finished for a few years. They keep charging more and providing less I may not be alone.

 

[Josh Hendy]

I have to agree for the most part. When Staggs gets the job (most likely) I don't think much will change even though some hope it will.

A lot of the Wall St squeeze for cash and pump-and-dump policies ultimately derive from the garbage policies of the federal reserve and the banks that own it and run it. This turns investors into speculators and gamblers and puts them in a panic to make the fastest buck. So some of the short sighted and credit bubble driven policies will continue as long as "easing" is the mantra.

The part that may improve is the policies that derive from Iger being a lame duck who has little stake in the long term health of the company. If indeed there are any such tendencies. It's possible that Iger is more conscientious than I've given him credit for, and/or that his exit package is tied to longer term performance and not just the time on the clock.

 

[manning]

Really? I am finished for a few years. They keep charging more and providing less I may not be alone.

They got their priorities wrong. It should have been maintain/update parks first then magic band.

Why would I go if it is the same rundown scenario. If the parks were fresh I could care less how I got in.

 

[tjkraz]

Epcot is really only surviving because of the festivals. DHS is only surviving because did things like frozen summer fun and now the Star Wars events.

I understand where you are coming from but "surviving" is a poor choice of words. To say that they are barely surviving suggests that there is a possibility DHS and Epcot will cease to exist. We both know that's far from the truth.

Disney fans will continue to wring their proverbial hands over the state of individual parks but none are in any mortal danger.

New high tech animatronics. New ride systems. New never before done nighttime spectaculars.

Easier said than done.

This isn't the 1950s or 1960s when pretty much everything WDI did was groundbreaking. Themed entertainment is a bigger business than ever: parks, cruise ships, hotels, etc. There are dozens of companies trying to innovate in those fields, while working in an industry that's been evolving for more than 60 years.

Even with unlimited budgets, you don't simply walk into the office one morning, rub your hands together and say "OK, we're going to create something today that will change theme parks forever!"

Wow if they are just surviving, I would love to own a park that is just surviving and still be in the top 10 attendance in the World.

Revenue is only half of the equation. Expenses are the other half. Construction overruns on Disneyland Paris lead to decades of high interest payments. If costs had been better controlled from the start, more dollars would have been available to maintain and gradually build-out the park.

Keep in mind, The Walt Disney Company is a minority shareholder in DLP. They were not going to simply write a check for the construction loans and then start pumping additional dollars into the park. Despite the name, it isn't Disney's park...at least, not in the way that Disneyland and WDW are.

 

[manning]

A lot of the Wall St squeeze for cash and pump-and-dump policies ultimately derive from the garbage policies of the federal reserve and the banks that own it and run it. This turns investors into speculators and gamblers and puts them in a panic to make the fastest buck. So some of the short sighted and credit bubble driven policies will continue as long as "easing" is the mantra.

The part that may improve is the policies that derive from Iger being a lame duck who has little stake in the long term health of the company. If indeed there are any such tendencies. It's possible that Iger is more conscientious than I've given him credit for, and/or that his exit package is tied to longer term performance and not just the time on the clock.

Kind of like like the Wahl situation. It is privately owned. Their chief competitor Sun Beam. Sun Beam had to go chapter 11, Wahl hasn't. Asked why the owner of Wahl said he doesn't have to satisfy stock holders. He can put all his profits in R&D ad come out with new products.

 

[mort1331]

Ok let me ask you a question. Would Epcot or DHS survive as stand along parks today? Maybe when they first opened but I don't think they do without being in the Disney family. I'd also like to point out those attendance numbers are not official. I have no problem with the festivals but Epcot and DHS won't be able to hold the same attendance 10-20 years from now without doing something. People will start to realize nothing has changed here why keep going back. Epcot just has a lost vision that needs to be refound. DHS as we know is getting the work it needs because without it, it would be slipping if it hasn't started already. Maintenance is also key in this. Look at the paper boy in SSE or the missing Ellen AA in energy adventure. Disney is afraid to take rides down these days because there is so little in those parks. People are already freaking out about the soarin refurb and how there won't be enough to do in Epcot.

Look at Paris. That's the most visited European park but doesn't rank very high on world rankings. Luckily, Disney is now majority owner in Paris and is doing a lot to fix those two parks.

The fact is they are not outside the Disney family so that is a hypothetical question that can go around the table and have multiple answers. The fact that Paris is not in the World rankings is not surprising, as it is the top of Europe rankings. Proving that Europe as a whole does not attend these parks as much as other parts of the world. Hence why Shanghai and China will and are doing so well.
The fact that Epcot and DHS are in the tops, with many non-Disney sites very close by speaks to them. People also recognize the brand and for the most part trust the brand on what it will deliver. For those that only go a few times in their life, they don't see the slight degrading of the product that someone who goes multiple times.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

They got their priorities wrong. It should have been maintain/update parks first then magic band.

Why would I go if it is the same rundown scenario. If the parks were fresh I could care less how I got in.

There are many in our boat that said that five years ago...when they ran rasulo and Staggs out there and delivered that garbage about "revolutionizing the themepark experience"

I know I was there...I know you were there...there were many others.

I had some slim Hope that it might have some creative
Elements to it...interactive rides or queuing systems, customization, etc.

But so far it is exactly as I feared...a reservation system for "leisure" that's primary benefit is the logistics of staffing and saving on employee costs. That's what it is currently.

Which means the complaint at the time - that things were going Stale and they needed new attractions ASAP...feel on deaf ears but were completely correct.

No excuse for avatar being 2 years out and Star Wars not being half constructed with their attendance and revenue numbers.

It's not just hurting the customers...they don't have a line around the block
Looking for dvc points right now or demanding annual pass renewals...you hear nothing of the sort.

 

[tjkraz]

Honestly most of the cost was just getting Disney's IT infrastructure out of the 1990s. Which had to happen regardless of anything else. People fixate on the Magic Band because that's the public consumer face of it, but the project was about a lot more than that.

Agree completely.

They got their priorities wrong. It should have been maintain/update parks first then magic band.

As a whole, the NextGen initiative was very much about maintaining and updating infrastructure. Without fixating on one element like FastPass Plus, the entire program touched countless areas of WDW which sorely needed attention.

That said, Disney could have deflected a lot of the criticism by adding just one major "D" or "E" ticket while also spending those dollars on NextGen.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Honestly most of the cost was just getting Disney's IT infrastructure out of the 1990s. Which had to happen regardless of anything else. People fixate on the Magic Band because that's the public consumer face of it, but the project was about a lot more than that.

Based on the stability and glitches that continue to be persistent in all areas of Disney IT I'm not sure they've made it out of the 80s.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Keep in mind, The Walt Disney Company is a minority shareholder in DLP. They were not going to simply write a check for the construction loans and then start pumping additional dollars into the park. Despite the name, it isn't Disney's park...at least, not in the way that Disneyland and WDW are.

Realizing for the kids at home that you're use of current tense verbs/modifiers is now outdated...as they are in the past now?

And as far as the difficulty in innovating...Disney with its deep
Pockets needed to up its game...and that is a failure.

The most "innovative" things to come wdw for ten years are midway mania and the mine train...which are in no way innovative. Actually laughably the opposite.

Because they have a unique family market - doesn't mean there is an allowance for going backwards. It's doesn't have to be a hurl-o-coaster or a thrill machine...but you have to go deeper than star tours 2.0 and slush and gusher.

That is bad show that the historical context of Disney parks should not tolerate.