Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

[3DisneyFanz]

Realizing for the kids at home that you're use of current tense verbs/modifiers is now outdated...as they are in the past now?

And as far as the difficulty in innovating...Disney with its deep
Pockets needed to up its game...and that is a failure.

The most "innovative" things to come wdw for ten years are midway mania and the mine train...which are in no way innovative. Actually laughably the opposite.

Because they have a unique family market - doesn't mean there is an allowance for going backwards. It's doesn't have to be a hurl-o-coaster or a thrill machine...but you have to go deeper than star tours 2.0 and slush and gusher.

That is bad show that the historical context of Disney parks should not tolerate.

It's not that they aren't capable they just don't do it in the US. They have introduced really cool things in Tokyo but that's because WDC doesn't control the budget there. Even the things that the Tokyo group has funded R&D on that all they'd have to foot is construction in the US gets shafted based on their Rizzo approach to park Managment.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It's not that they aren't capable they just don't do it in the US. They have introduced really cool things in Tokyo but that's because WDC doesn't control the budget there. Even the things that the Tokyo group has funded R&D on that all they'd have to foot is construction in the US gets shafted based on their Rizzo approach to park Managment.

I have doubts they can build high quality rides out of Burbank anymore...

I'll say it. This has been growing for
Years since Eisner actually tried to do so late in his crazy accounting career and Iger has done NOTHING to reverse course

 

[rteetz]

I understand where you are coming from but "surviving" is a poor choice of words. To say that they are barely surviving suggests that there is a possibility DHS and Epcot will cease to exist. We both know that's far from the truth.

Disney fans will continue to wring their proverbial hands over the state of individual parks but none are in any mortal danger.

Ok I guess I can agree with you that maybe I chose the wrong word. Maybe it's more like they are hurting but being helped by the limited time entertainment.

Easier said than done.

This isn't the 1950s or 1960s when pretty much everything WDI did was groundbreaking. Themed entertainment is a bigger business than ever: parks, cruise ships, hotels, etc. There are dozens of companies trying to innovate in those fields, while working in an industry that's been evolving for more than 60 years.

Even with unlimited budgets, you don't simply walk into the office one morning, rub your hands together and say "OK, we're going to create something today that will change theme parks forever!"

Ok. I will say mymagic+ while many might disagree with me or dislike the product. It was innovative.

Disney does some pretty amazing things at parks like Disneyland or overseas. It just seems we don't see those amazing things in Orlando.

 

[rteetz]

The fact is they are not outside the Disney family so that is a hypothetical question that can go around the table and have multiple answers. The fact that Paris is not in the World rankings is not surprising, as it is the top of Europe rankings. Proving that Europe as a whole does not attend these parks as much as other parts of the world. Hence why Shanghai and China will and are doing so well.
The fact that Epcot and DHS are in the tops, with many non-Disney sites very close by speaks to them. People also recognize the brand and for the most part trust the brand on what it will deliver. For those that only go a few times in their life, they don't see the slight degrading of the product that someone who goes multiple times.

Shanghai isn't doing well. Is not open yet.

Again the numbers are not official. What if those parks that are close by DHS are actually the same or in front of them? It's been said before that Disney has some power in getting the numbers they want.

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

To me, both win. Universal has a quicker turn around for rides and i enjoy that they are a bit more exciting than the rides at Disney. Disney is nostalgia to me, which is why I love it. i also think Universal announces new rides when they are half way through the beginning stages. So, while it appears that they are out "quicker" its that we aren't waiting 5 years for building. I wish Disney would invest in the parks here more than the international ones. Its such a shame to see innovative ideas happen there but still be stuck with the same 4 parks for so long. Even the merchandise for the international parks is better.

 

[rteetz]

To me, both win. Universal has a quicker turn around for rides and i enjoy that they are a bit more exciting than the rides at Disney. Disney is nostalgia to me, which is why I love it. i also think Universal announces new rides when they are half way through the beginning stages. So, while it appears that they are out "quicker" its that we aren't waiting 5 years for building. I wish Disney would invest in the parks here more than the international ones. Its such a shame to see innovative ideas happen there but still be stuck with the same 4 parks for so long. Even the merchandise for the international parks is better.

Yes universal waits to announce but they still don't generally take as long as Disney does these days.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Yes universal waits to announce but they still don't generally take as long as Disney does these days.

Even more important than the elapsed years from green light to soft opening is the fact that Universal keeps the pipeline much more full than Disney. Ever since Rip Ride Rockit which was the first time I really started to pay attention to Uni, it seems like they've been delivering a new D or E ticket quality ride about once every 12 to 18 months with some major retooling of old rides thrown in regularly such as Minions and Hulk. There is also a distinct lack of lame, old, corny rides and shows that haven't been changed in 20 plus years. They are number two and they try harder.

 

[rteetz]

Even more important than the elapsed years from green light to soft opening is the fact that Universal keeps the pipeline much more full than Disney. Ever since Rip Ride Rockit which was the first time I really started to pay attention to Uni, it seems like they've been delivering a new D or E ticket quality ride about once every 12 to 18 months with some major retooling of old rides thrown in regularly such as Minions and Hulk. There is also a distinct lack of lame, old, corny rides and shows that haven't been changed in 20 plus years. They are number two and they try harder.

100%

 

[Scalemaster34]

Competition is GOOD!

 

[mort1331]

Even more important than the elapsed years from green light to soft opening is the fact that Universal keeps the pipeline much more full than Disney. Ever since Rip Ride Rockit which was the first time I really started to pay attention to Uni, it seems like they've been delivering a new D or E ticket quality ride about once every 12 to 18 months with some major retooling of old rides thrown in regularly such as Minions and Hulk. There is also a distinct lack of lame, old, corny rides and shows that haven't been changed in 20 plus years. They are number two and they try harder.

And this is where I disagree. They have to keep spending gobs of money and bringing new things to keep drawing their numbers. If you have a good product the people will come and come back. A sale is only a sale if you don't have it all the time, if not then its just the regular price.

 

[rteetz]

And this is where I disagree. They have to keep spending gobs of money and bringing new things to keep drawing their numbers. If you have a good product the people will come and come back. A sale is only a sale if you don't have it all the time, if not then its just the regular price.

I think a lot of it has to do with the new owners. Universal is now owned by Comcast who at one point was trying to buy Disney. Comcast knows how valuable the parks are to their business so they are going to keep investing in them to try and get as close to if not above Disney. Universal also stole some of Disney imagineers to work on these new projects but Disney of course then stole some of universal creatives to work for them as well. Many would say that universals product is good and is getting better. Many are taking an extra Disney day and using it at universal instead. Universal is really trying to become a destination rather than a two day thing. Look at all of the new hotels they have been building, new water park, new attractions, revitalized city walk. Don't forget they just purchased 450+ acres for future expansion. I think we all can guess what that is for...

 

[Planogirl]

I'm just grateful that we have a wonderful place like Universal to go to now. We discovered how much we liked it just before so much started to be disappointing at WDW so the timing was perfect. I still expect Disney to correct what is wrong someday but whether they do or not we have an uncomplicated, top-notch place to play that will always get at least 3 days of our vacation.

As for speed, the Kong attraction is massive and is really being built quickly. I couldn't believe how much was done in only about 9 months.

 

[Flyerjab]

Now that I have been visiting Disney forums here and elsewhere for the past 5 years, I have been saturated with the 'knowledge' that is out there from Disney ultra fans. I also now consider myself one of these people. Having said that, I can see a vast expanse following the completion of EE in DAK where not a lot was done to improve WDW as a whole. I kind of liken it to what the hub in the MK turned into - some sort of concrete expanse bereft of any character that exhibited a lack of creativity or creature comforts for the people to take in. It was the scripted place for people to go each night that just handed Iger tons of their money.

I feel that this is changing somewhat. In my opinion thanks goes to UNI. It's amazing what the boy wizard is capable of. I fully expect UNI to be 'roughly' half the size of WDW in the not too distant future: 3 parks, 1 water park, 10000-15000 on site rooms, full transportation system, 2 city walks. That is enough to get the Mouse's attention.

That being said, I love the 7DMT. I think that the AAs on that ride are phenomenal. We hit that ride several times each trip and find it to be a perfect counterbalance for the other mountains in the MK range. Meaning, it is a coaster small enough for my smallest kids to venture on but still something that our entire family enjoys. Second, light poles aside (I hope that they fix those), I love the new hub. I think that it is a beautiful change to that part of the park, and also helps control the crowds much better (I don't fear for my family's safety anymore being in the hub after Wishes ends). Also, what really caught my attention as far as recent additions go was the Festival of Fantasy Parade in MK. That parade is a wonder and you can tell that they really spent money on it. I make certain that we always see it at least once on each trip.

Moving on, I can't wait to experience the new Rivers of Light show in DAK next year, as well as the new version of the Kilimanjaro Night Safaris. DAK park in general has been so improved upon already this past year. The new Harambe Market place and expanded/improved upon Festival of the Lion King has made the village of Harambe itself a true showpiece of an immersive land. And Pandora will be amazing. I have supported that expansion ever since it was announced. The land will be one-of-a-kind, and I can't wait for the boat ride and the simulator.

For DHS, both Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land look very promising. And that is just the beginning for that park in my opinion. I think that WDW is on the right track and will see fantastic improvements in their parks in both theming and rides over the next 5 years leading up to the 50th anniversary in 2021. And yes, I am old enough that I don't need the cautionary WDW tale from those that deem themselves wise in WDW lore. I simply tend to view things through a more positive lens than others do. That is my choice, but time will be the ultimate judge here. We will see soon enough.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And this is where I disagree. They have to keep spending gobs of money and bringing new things to keep drawing their numbers. If you have a good product the people will come and come back. A sale is only a sale if you don't have it all the time, if not then its just the regular price.

That sentiment is EXACTLY what the failure of amusement parks have been riddled with historically...

Do you honestly think the teacups can be claimed as "perfect" forever?

And I love the teacups...

Disney is milking the nostalgia too much...in Florida most especially.

If...and this isn't impossible...the draw of Mickey Mouse and the animated classics begins to wane...those parks are going to be in deep trouble. It's simple math.

Now I don't advocate the cedar point approach at wdw and never will. But I do advocate the addition of splash mountain, test track, tower of terror, and rockin roller coaster in the 90's. You HAVE to act like you care and there's some thrill in the ticket prices.

This avatar thing will be a big mile marker...and star wars after...because bland simulators - which frankly soarin and star tours are - won't be sustainable forever. Eventually repeat visitors will balk.

The "good" thing? Is that ESPN has taken a lot of their accounting complacency out of their hands. Themeparks are 31% of the take and now with cable starting to fall (40%) and Paris thrown in as an anchor for the first time...they have to get more out of wdw in particular...and fortunately for us their accounting studies have already been revealed to indicate the findings are they need more to do that. They have admitted it by going to a comparative rush at studios. They wouldn't if there wasn't trouble on the forecast.

God knows what they'll charge us though...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Now that I have been visiting Disney forums here and elsewhere for the past 5 years, I have been saturated with the 'knowledge' that is out there from Disney ultra fans. I also now consider myself one of these people. Having said that, I can see a vast expanse following the completion of EE in DAK where not a lot was done to improve WDW as a whole. I kind of liken it to what the hub in the MK turned into - some sort of concrete expanse bereft of any character that exhibited a lack of creativity or creature comforts for the people to take in. It was the scripted place for people to go each night that just handed Iger tons of their money.

I feel that this is changing somewhat. In my opinion thanks goes to UNI. It's amazing what the boy wizard is capable of. I fully expect UNI to be 'roughly' half the size of WDW in the not too distant future: 3 parks, 1 water park, 10000-15000 on site rooms, full transportation system, 2 city walks. That is enough to get the Mouse's attention.

That being said, I love the 7DMT. I think that the AAs on that ride are phenomenal. We hit that ride several times each trip and find it to be a perfect counterbalance for the other mountains in the MK range. Meaning, it is a coaster small enough for my smallest kids to venture on but still something that our entire family enjoys. Second, light poles aside (I hope that they fix those), I love the new hub. I think that it is a beautiful change to that part of the park, and also helps control the crowds much better (I don't fear for my family's safety anymore being in the hub after Wishes ends). Also, what really caught my attention as far as recent additions go was the Festival of Fantasy Parade in MK. That parade is a wonder and you can tell that they really spent money on it. I make certain that we always see it at least once on each trip.

Moving on, I can't wait to experience the new Rivers of Light show in DAK next year, as well as the new version of the Kilimanjaro Night Safaris. DAK park in general has been so improved upon already this past year. The new Harambe Market place and expanded/improved upon Festival of the Lion King has made the village of Harambe itself a true showpiece of an immersive land. And Pandora will be amazing. I have supported that expansion ever since it was announced. The land will be one-of-a-kind, and I can't wait for the boat ride and the simulator.

For DHS, both Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land look very promising. And that is just the beginning for that park in my opinion. I think that WDW is on the right track and will see fantastic improvements in their parks in both theming and rides over the next 5 years leading up to the 50th anniversary in 2021. And yes, I am old enough that I don't need the cautionary WDW tale from those that deem themselves wise in WDW lore. I simply tend to view things through a more positive lens than others do. That is my choice, but time will be the ultimate judge here. We will see soon enough.

Here's the developing reality that Comcast and the very ballsy Brian Roberts has created:

Disney does now has to adopt urgency which is exactly what they didn't want. You can't milk things like they have for 25 years when little brother on kirkman is growing as fast as he is.

They are both messing with each other far more than they're comfortable with: 15 years of greed and complacency in LBV allowed Comcast to throw the door open like they have...I always downplay the threat of uni due to size and resources...but look at just what they've done since only 2010...it's ridiculous. They'll always be #2...but they are looking to be close enough to steal way more
Of the pie than Disney EVER thought possible.

Now...the Mouse has to wake up and get out of their Iger comfort zone. They no longer seem to have a choice. That's the ESPN thing.

The only way for Disney to support a $100 stock price is to start making massive money out of parks and things such as Star Wars. And that is hard to do on the cheap.

I'm loving the way it's setting up. I hate the prices...but the fact that it's hard to argue they are scrambling...and that shifted in such a short time...must make the stiff suits livid. You reap
What you sow.

 

[tjkraz]

Over the past 6-8 years, I take more issue with HOW WDW spent its money rather than the amount.

The poster child for this is the expanded Fantasyland which added about 2.5 attractions (appeal of Belle is just soooooo limited) at a reported price tag around $500 million. Compare that with Mission Space which was expensive for its day at $100 million--admittedly more than a decade ago--and phase 1 of Harry Potter which reportedly cost only $250M. It seems like the money could have been better spent.

Disney also invested a lot into existing attractions which is necessary, but doesn't do much to enhance the experience for frequent guests. Star Tours, Test Track, Spaceship Earth, 3 Caballeros, Playhouse Disney, Phineas & Ferb...plus smaller things like adding scenes to Toy Story Mania.

And then there's the $2 billion for Next Gen. Not knowing what all was included in that budget, it's hard to nit-pick. I contend that many of the improvements were sorely needed (even if not 100% reliable): ALL online features, wifi, electronic FastPass, RFID Photopass.

Other things like the enhanced ride queues may have been part of the NextGen budget. Personally I thought it was a clever idea but have no idea what it cost and most seem to have been abandoned. Again, questionable spending.

Infrastructure changes like the infamous Tangled bathrooms and rejiggering of the Haunted Mansion walkways. The Disney Springs changes--particularly parking and roadways. Not sexy...but very welcome.

Most of this came while Disney was in the midst of an enormous investment at California Adventure. We'd like to think that WDW and DL are run autonomously but given the fact that Disney issues combined financial reports for its "domestic parks", I suspect spending at one does impact the other.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'm guessing most of us could pour over those budgets and find at least $200M to redirect to a couple very nice new attractions.

There were many stories in recent years of Disney prepared to give the green light to new attractions--the Monster's Inc door coaster and Cars Land come immediately to mind. But according to the rumor mill, those plans were always put on hold due to cost overruns elsewhere...usually NextGen.

Then there's Avatar which was absolutely--no question about it--influenced / delayed / hampered by James Cameron working at a snail's pace. The guy consistently turns out good stuff (I've yet to even watch Avatar but look no further than Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss, True Lies, Titanic), but it takes him FOREVER to produce.

WDW got caught in a rut, propelled by repeated poor decision making. Money has been going into WDW--it just hasn't been going toward the products (or partners...Cameron) which readily satiate the general public.

Today the pending slate of changes is easy to admire. Big additions to Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios. Disney Springs will soon be done. Epcot is getting Norway and Soarin improvements, and seems like the odds-on favorite for the next big addition (whenever that happens.) Magic Kingdom...personally I think that park is fine as-is. Other than minor attraction plussing, I wouldn't be disturbed if MK remained untouched for 10 years simply because the other parks are in greater need of attention.

Will Toy Story Land, Star Wars Land and Pandora live up to their potential? We'll see. It's not worth my time to spend the next several years second-guessing completion dates and attraction content. I'll get back to you when they're done.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm sure in my many musings I've made case several times that everything that has been done since Iger took over results in this:
A. Massive infrastucture upgrades often not seen by the naked eye
B. One prototype joint development attraction (midway)

Fantasyland, downtown and my magic + are in essence just updating what was a horrid outdated/neglected park system.

I blame Eisner for forgetting this from 1995-2004...not Iger. They never had put the money they needed to into the computer system...they had allowed guest areas of poor design decay past the point of fixing (so they had to be replaced)...and the results where what Roy Disney eloquently deemed "timidity in the parks" to take over.

He was referring to Eisner and DCA, studios Paris, animal kingdom...but Iger has basically done the same thing in Orlando.

This "wait your turn" on capital expenditures and blurring the line between infrastructure upgrades and entertainment upgrades is a very shortsighted approach. All amusement parks - even ones that sell mouse ears - have expiration dates that can't be fixed if you let them pass. The old men at Disney new...you just can't rest.

They do a lot of resting in the dwarf house these days.

But now we are turning the corner a bit...they don't have a choice from a business standpoint. Avatar is the first true "addition" in wdw for almost 12 years. Now that the heavy hitters are up the street...that could be a critical flaw in judgement.

And yes...the shady deal with Cameron has contributed to the problem. Putting rohde and Cameron in a room practically blows the budget and reasonable timeline from day 1. The thing would have been open 2 years ago if a reasonable manager was in place. But I believe there's a financial deal there. Too much silence for Disney to be spending all the money...that's not their style.

And...the link between "Disney parks" and budgeting cannot be denied. They absolutely see the "property" stretching form Orange County to Orange County...as it happens to be. There's a finite pot.

The problem now? In a word: "bonjour"

Nobody is paying attention to what the "Paris bailout" really means. That's as important now as anything universal does on I-4.

If ESPN didn't suck...we wdw customers would be pretty unhappy for the next...I don't know...indefinite number of years?

 

[VegasMike]

In response to the OP. Yes! Parks are stagnant. What new attractions they are doing are anything but inovative. Resorts are slipping in maintenance and housekeeping. Upper management does nothing quickly. It will be a slow decline, but they have slipped far to much to fix without a HUGE investment property wide. And the resulting cost increases will kill them. DVC bailed them out last time but even that has hit it's limit.

 

[adam.adbe]

Over the past 6-8 years, I take more issue with HOW WDW spent its money rather than the amount.

The poster child for this is the expanded Fantasyland which added about 2.5 attractions (appeal of Belle is just soooooo limited) at a reported price tag around $500 million.

...

And then there's the $2 billion for Next Gen. Not knowing what all was included in that budget, it's hard to nit-pick. I contend that many of the improvements were sorely needed (even if not 100% reliable): ALL online features, wifi, electronic FastPass, RFID Photopass.

...

Infrastructure changes like the infamous Tangled bathrooms and rejiggering of the Haunted Mansion walkways. The Disney Springs changes--particularly parking and roadways. Not sexy...but very welcome.

...

Hindsight being 20/20, I'm guessing most of us could pour over those budgets and find at least $200M to redirect to a couple very nice new attractions.

Not me, I have no doubt they did what they needed to do with that money. I wish they'd have stretched another $200M or so to do the new rides right (Belle excluded, which repeatability aside is a quality attraction). Mine Train could have been better, Mermaid *should* have been better, and Pooh is an insult. How was the money wasted though? They've built a beautifully themed area that gracefully handles the traffic of new and generally confused first time visitors who've just walked through the castle and are wondering where they should go next. They've also built an area that they can improve over time without necessarily incurring major disruption. As a side bonus they've added a restaurant that is still generally packed, and whose cash registers should be whole separate column on the financials.

The bands I don't really have an opinion on. Disney is never going to spill the beans on the breakdown between the MB costs and general IT costs, but I suspect the latter is massive, and almost certainly was needed.

We may all have wanted more, and NFL certainly seems somewhat self-serving, but I don't think I'd call it a waste, or timid for that matter.


Now, if they would just commit to replacing a handful of animatronics a year in Mermaid between now and 2020, quite honestly that ride could be something far more special.

 

[kbelle8995]

Universal is already pulling down the twister ride to prepare for Jimmy Fallon. You may not like what Universal does. But let me tell you they are not letting grass grow under their feet.

If Disney let's their product slip they might be in trouble. Some of their standards have slipped But they have a very powerful brand so we will see.
That said I think Disney's far from being as the OP asked Screwed But if we have another economic downturn, they could experience some trouble. And still then they could turn to visitors from overseas