IS Disney still broken?

[SnackyStacky]

Just to prove that it's not just us noticing these things:

Cinderella37
DIS Veteran

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 663
One evening on our last trip to WDW (July 7-17), I had to search throughout MK to find a bathroom that was clean. The restrooms were filthy. I was shocked. When I walked out of one, I was commenting on the sorry state to my fiance and a CM heard me. He said he'd have someone clean the restroom. I wanted to go to Guest Services and complain but honestly, after everything that's been going on with Disney, I figured I'd be wasting my breath.

We also noticed the overflowing trash everywhere. The trash on the street (and in lines) was horrible. The most disturbing thing was on several of the rides in Fantasyland, there wasn't a CM boarding anyone on the rides. This happened on Snow White, Winnie the Pooh, and Peter Pan. On a few occasions, the CM was too busy chatting to another CM that he/she ignored the guests in line.

The smoking areas were disgusting, also. My fiance smokes and he said that if WDW wants people to use smoking areas, at least keep the ashtrays clean. They were overflowing at EVERY smoking area, no matter which park or the time of day. It was impossible to put out a cigarrette without touching someone else's in the ashtray. We weren't the only people commenting on the state of the parks, but we tried to look past that and enjoy ourselves.

 

[KNWVIKING]

We head to the World in Oct. I'm going to keep my head out of the clouds and my eyes on the "cans". I guess I need to see this for myself, because I can honestly say I've never seen anything like what Cindy is describing.

I've seen the trash people leave on the ground after parades, I've seen people toss trash in the general direction of a can. I've seen the result of people trying to flush 13 seat covers at one time.

I'm sure that trash cans have overflowed & bathrooms are sometimes less then sparkling, but I've never had it be a distraction to the point that I've actually paid attention to it. This trip I'm going to specifically take notice.

 

[Peter Pirate]

As AP holders you guys know we're there 25-30 days per year and I, too (like Vike), have NEVER seen anything approaching those descriptions. Now, since we generally visit during non peak times (only a few long weekends)...Certainly no peak summer times, I wonder could it be the crowds of peak times that ae bringing on these kind of reports? Because otherwise I have no explanation for them.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I purposely did NOT read anything but the first post. Not yet anyway. I wanted to give you my first impression. If that turns out to be lame and arguments counter that position I will say so. But I gotta tell you, it is so clear cut in my mind that from my current viewpoint I don't see that happening. So...

IS Disney still broken?

YES!!! Absolutely and for sure!! How can it not be when it is still philosophically bankrupt and devoid of any meaningful leadership?

It just seems like so much has happened and been said and predicted yet nothing too significant has changed has it?

Yeah!! Isn't that the point? Not much changed. Too bad, wouldn't you agree?

Now I will go back and see where I might have gone wrong!!



PS: Thanks for the topic, Peter!! You done good!!

 

[Sandy Fisher]

Lately I've been more of a lurker, reading regularly but not posting because I haven't felt I could add anything much to what's already been said, and said in a better way than I'm capable of!
This thread has me more than a little concerned about conditions at WDW. Unfortunately our last trip was November of 2001. Lots of things had been cut back, changed, etc., some due to the 9/ll tragedy, some due to the economy. We made the best of it.
But I've never seen a dirty bathroom or trash that wasn't quickly cleaned up since we've been going to WDW. Our first trip was 1982 prior to Epcot opening.
We have bragged to friends and family about how no one does it better. We've seen some of the little special things disappear but it was still better than the competition.
We've never gone during the summer months, but even so the idea of overflowing trash cans and dirty restrooms leaves me with a very uncomfortable feeling. Would I go tomorrow if I were able? You betcha. Would I be sad and disappointed at such conditions if I experienced them? Absolutely.
Having never seen a ride unattended by CMs or boarding riders being escorted/instructed by them, I just can't imagine that. Is there any excuse for that? Not in my opinion. Will the world end because Disney slips a little (or a lot)? No. But it won't be the same if Disney allows the "little" touches to waste away and become ordinary.
Sorry to be so blabby, but it does bother me and I'm sure it bothers a lot of other folks who have come to expect more.

Sandy

 

[KNWVIKING]

.... speak up anytime you have something to say, we want to hear you.

***"....and said in a better way than I'm capable of"***

Hey say it anyway you want. Very few here are as eloquaint (sp) as The Baron

As I posted earlier, I've never seen anything to the extend as Cindy posted. And I've NEVER seen any ride being left unattended,allowing guests to basically load as they please... NEVER, and last year I was in The World five weeks, including the week of July 4th.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

…while maybe not as high-profile as a new E-ticket attraction, are--IMO--just as important to the overall quality that sets Disney apart.

Yes!! I heartily agree!! But so are getting rid of those retched vacuums. So is getting rid of those rotten cheap trinket stands before the parade! So are longer hours. So is an increase maintenance staff. So is… But those are higher level philosophical questions and for some reason or another you never want to talk about these things.

In other words what in the heck, in the big picture that our good friend the Pirate was talking about, do a relative small fries like Ouimet and Weiss (I SAID RELATIVE) really control? Do they control philosophy? Do they control overall direction? Or do they really play a cat and mouse game with Burbank. One that the cat is sure to win in the end.

No!! Peter I say it again. They are philosophically crippled and lack the vision of leadership that the job requires. All Ouimet and Weiss can possibly do is throw us a bone every now and again.

Expect more announcments this fall to further this trend

You keep saying that and I keep waiting… But I certainly haven’t heard anything yet to change my opinion. A couple of bones really doesn’t matter in the big picture.

 

[manning]

The locations that were to be included in the tour were immediately descended upon by middle managers who nervously swept up the tiniest bits of trash, and implored the Cast Members at those locations to be on their best behavior. As the Eisner tour began and headed into Disneyland, there were even two TDA suits, (literally in suits and ties), armed with pans and brooms hurriedly sweeping up popcorn and churro wrappers around the Hub as many Outdoor Vending (ODV) and Custodial Cast Members (CM's) bemusedly watched.

The above is part of an article by Al Lutz on 7/27/04. It about Eisner taking a tour of the park.

Kind of reminds me when I was in the army. About every three months the general would come thru to inspect us. And every time we would get alerted to clean up and be on good behavior.

We passed inspection every time, except the time he showed up unannounced.

So, if Eisner wants to know what is going on, he should get into the common man's car, pay the admission price and walk around. That's how Walt did it. That is, if he wants to know

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

manning - Great post as usual!

That is, if he wants to know

What makes anyone think he really wants to know? How silly!

And this cuts right to the heart of the matter. It's still broken because the head is still broken. And much to Scoop’s chagrin, no amount of middle managers who might or might not 'Get It' can change that!!

 

[lucky_bunni]

All I know is that I'm taking my voice recorder for my September trip to document anything I see that is dirty or in disrepair. When I get back I'll back I'll post my results on the DIS and draw up a letter to send to several people at Disney.

For me, anything less than how Walt would have maintained the company is unacceptable. If the standards he set could be obtained then, with the technology and cash flow they had then, then there is no reason Walt's standards can't be held now. It's a result of not caring, laziness, and only looking at the bottom line.

I went in 1986 (can't remember much of then), and started going back every 1-2 years in 1995. The 1995 trip has been unmatchable to date. Every year, the latest 2002, things seem to slip more and more. The first red flag on this trip so far has been being told that I couldn't make an evening PS at the Plaza in MK because the restaurant closes at 4:30pm that evening. That's bull if you ask me. It also bugs me that FW closes earlier than WS. It's been that way as long as I can recall, but there isn't any reason it should.

 

[Galahad]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
OK Dan, I think we're understanding each other...Or at least I am you.

I don't dispute any of your feelings in fact I'm one of those who lament things gone by (as I said) but I'm wondering is are we going to simply suffer the same fate of the dinosaur? I mean you admitted that we Disney geeks are only a small percentage of the actual Disney guest list and as time marches on our numbers will dwindle and our voices weaken, but Disney as it is will continue, no?

What I feel is that those who cry out the loudest "oh, what Walt do" are really just killing themselves for Walt is long gone, the Company is on auto piolet and there is a new breed of Disney lovers do not find dismay in the ancient history of things left behind.

I think I'm saying that while Disney may be showing cracks in the perceptions we old timers have, it ultimately doesn't mean much and it will probably never bring down the Company who lives on the personna of Walt and the 'Disney dream'. They need enoughof the magic to sustain the entity and thats probably where it will remain. Which means it'll always be better than the rest but never the same as it was...

What do you think?

I think this is a pretty accurate assessment. Said another way, relative to how "unmagical" the rest of the world is, as long as Disney stays "magical" compared to what its guests/customers have to deal with elsewhere they will stay viable "on auto-pilot".

 

[Peter Pirate]

Thanks Galahad...That was what I was thinking, although Landbaron still keeps pushing the discussion back to the Walt basis (which is ok, too).

It just seems that perhaps we'll all have to eventually "get over it" or if it means so much to us, find somewhere else to vacation if Disney never does return to the glory days of the 'Golf Resort', 100 rooms on property and Ron Miller...LOL...But if Disney is able to run on 'autopilot' while giving the new generation their magic (irregardless as to whether it's inferior to the old magic in the oldtimers eyse) then that's just pretty much the future isn't it?

 

[BRERALEX]

I'll take the old magic anyday. anthing less to me is unacceptable. If we say the level of magic was a 10 when Walt was around and everywhere else a 3, like at six flags and now they are pumping out level 8 magic it only apears to be the best. its not good enough for me. it may be for newcomers but not for me.

So i say its still broken.

 

[raidermatt]

Really, I don't think there's all that much question about whether the parks will remain viable for the forseeable future.

If that is, in fact, the question, then you can be at ease. The parks aren't going anywhere. If you enjoy visiting WDW or DLR now (like I do), then you will enjoy it in the future, and there isn't much else to say on the topic.

However, if the question is whether the problems created by the change in philsophy under Eisner are a thing of the past, then things aren't so clear.

The outside environment is improving for the parks (economy and tourism), which means we are less likely to see cuts being made at the rates we have seen them in the last few years. But has the direction from the top actually changed, so that if we see new challenges, things won't begin spiraling downward again?

A disturbing note is that we aren't seeing restorations of cuts at the same rate they were taken away.

Scoop is right in that current park management is an improvement over their predecessors, who were led by Pressler. That's a good thing no matter how its sliced.

But Baron is also right that the direction from above is still a problem, and only so much can be done within those parameters.

But, is the parks division now in a position to leverage alot of budget out of the mothership? Based on the current "political" situation of Disney's leadership, the answer is definitely yes.

Again, this is a relatively short term situation, and is subject to change based on a lot of factors. It doesn't speak to an overall change in direction.

Nice, in that some things have aligned to help the parks, but still not the long term solution.

 

[KNWVIKING]

..... Maybe you should rename your OT to " Is Disney MORE or LESS broken today"

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

From others in this very thread…

we know that the quality is slipping, and ebbing farther away from the standards that Walt Disney set.

For me, anything less than how Walt would have maintained the company is unacceptable.

But Walt created his parks to be DIFFERENT. He created them so you didn't have to deal with these kinds of little things. The insignificant things.

So, if Eisner wants to know what is going on, he should get into the common man's car, pay the admission price and walk around. That's how Walt did it.

If we say the level of magic was a 10 when Walt was around and everywhere else a 3, like at six flags and now they are pumping out level 8 magic it only appears to be the best. its not good enough for me. it may be for newcomers but not for me.

Yet I am the only one singled out in your post when you said:

although Landbaron still keeps pushing the discussion back to the Walt basis

So, tell me my dear Pirate, why only ten years?

Are we really worse off than 10 years ago?

Why not five? Why not fifteen? Why not twenty-five? Why do you have a problem holding Disney to “Disney” standards!? Broken is broken! Your question is “Is Disney STILL broken?” There can be only one answer.

YES!!

Maybe you should rename your OT to " Is Disney MORE or LESS broken today"

That is indeed a better question if you want to avoid Walt talk. But you better put in some timelines as well.

Mr. Viking:

About a year ago Baron posted about the observation deck at CR being closed to non-Cal Grill guests. Well, in Oct and Dec, it was open to anybody.

And closed again shortly afterwards. Both my daughters, on separate occasions, were barred from the observation deck in May and June. (chip, chip, chip) Or is it (drip, drip, drip)?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Yet I am the only one singled out in your post...

Why? Just because your you Landbaron.

...And closed again shortly afterwards.

To the great delight of the diners at the California Grill.

What about the rest of it, Baron? Do you agree with your shotgun man, Matt (I hope I get this right) that Disney can (and probably will) continue to please the general public above their expectations? Meaning the concept of 'Disney' will continue, even if many of the beloved attributes (of the oldtimers) will be lost along the way? Can you agree that a 'Disney' that will still capture imaginations and 'wow' people can continue even if it's not the same 'wow' as Walt would have given? Note: If I've taken liberties with what you've 'agreed to' Matt, feel free to let me know, but suffice it to say that the question bears discussing anyway...

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
And closed again shortly afterwards. Both my daughters, on separate occasions, were barred from the observation deck in May and June.

Don't see how this fits in to the general decline theory. The access was taken away because it was a problem, not due to budget cuts, or to sell more souvenirs.

And, they added speakers to the mezzanine level deck and started pumping in the music there for folks who wanted to watch the fireworks from the Contemporary. Unfortunately, not as dramatic as the view from above, but enjoyable nonetheless.

 

[manning]

Don't see how this fits in to the general decline theory. The access was taken away because it was a problem, not due to budget cuts, or to sell more souvenirs.

If it was a problem then it should have been closed down many ...........and I mean many...........years ago!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hey Pirate. Be with you in a little while. In the mean time let me take care of this as it is a no-brainer. Yours on the other hand requires me to actually read Matt’s post!!

Thanks.

Mr. Bear!

Don't see how this fits in to the general decline theory.

That is because you’ve never fully understood how really important the PHILOSOPHY is. At least that is my perception of your posts. I could be wrong, but I have never seen you embrace it, explain it, or for that matter, even dismiss it. I believe that if you did “Get It”, you still may agree that it was a good move, but you’d at least understand why some of us would vehemently disagree!!

The access was taken away because it was a problem, not due to budget cuts, or to sell more souvenirs.

The problem was created by a need to turn the entire 15th floor into a profit center. Prior to this there was no ‘problem’. The restaurant was on the south side of the facility and the lounge/observation deck was on the North. And everything was right with the world! The diners enjoyed their dinner with NO interference whatsoever and the ‘gawkers’ enjoyed the show either on the observation deck or in the lounge. For free. An extra. As part of the SHOW. Just because! So that serendipity could occur and MAGIC could be discovered.

It was only when they decided to put tables into the lounge area that it became a problem.

Unfortunately, not as dramatic as the view from above, but enjoyable nonetheless.

And that’s the point, isn’t it!?

If it was a problem then it should have been closed down many ...........and I mean many...........years ago!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep!! You’re right! It never was a problem. It was always intended to be part of the SHOW! That is until Disney decided to sell the view and a couple of extra tables a night. Those wonderful managers in WDW have decided to divide up part of the show as a commodity (how surprising!), putting Efficiency over SHOW, for a couple of lousy bucks!

How disappointing.