IS Disney still broken?

[KNWVIKING]

Baron, on May 19th the observation deck was open to any and all comers..... at least it appeared that way to me. People were getting off the elevator and heading straight out. CM's were not stopping anybody. It was a Wednesday, but the Grill was packed out,no walk ups. I have no doubt your daughters were denied access, I just don't understand the inconsistance.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Baron, on May 19th the observation deck was open to any and all comers.....

Thanks Mr. Viking.

However,Scoop's not the only one with sources!! I will try to verify!!

 

[crusader]

But if Disney is able to run on 'autopilot' while giving the new generation their magic (irregardless as to whether it's inferior to the old magic in the oldtimers eyse) then that's just pretty much the future isn't it?

I wouldn't call it autopilot because it does take effort to run the place.

But the most important point in this message is how the new generation not only perceives Disney but defines the future of family entertainment for this company.

Many here are not that audience. Those of us from the past are yesterday's family - not tomorrow's. All we've done is witness how the evolution of progress gradually replaces quality at every turn. And that's all we seem to be able to reflect on.

But it ends there - with us. The next generation comes with a fresh set of eyes and an innocence for discovery exactly the way we once did. Their experience is brand new with a clear perspective based on nothing beyond the way things are at that point in time.

They have redefined magic.

And as long as that magic breeds the same way within them as it did for us this company will never be broken.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Thanks crusader...That was what I was getting at and you put it well.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by manning
If it was a problem then it should have been closed down many ...........and I mean many...........years ago!!!!!!!!!!!

Except that, prior to the internet age, relatively few folks even knew about the deck.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Except that, prior to the internet age, relatively few folks even knew about the deck.

Did you happen to miss my post or are you choosing to ignore it?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with more people! Since the mid seventies, on many occasions, there was standing room only!! How silly is that!

Come on. Disney is the definitive expert at crowd control. The 'problem' arose simply because they (Disney) opted to expand the dining area. They found that they had a hot item on their hands with the California Grille and decided to maximize PROFITS!!

And that's the ONLY reason.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"They found that they had a hot item on their hands with the California Grille and decided to maximize PROFITS!! "***

How about they maximized customer satisfaction by allowing more guests to enjoy a great meal and location at Cal Grill. How many people left WDW dissatisfied because they were unable to get into CG ?

What choice would you make Baron..... Make an additional 100 or so ( maybe much higher,maybe much lower, no idea what the nightly capacity increase was) guests happy by allowing them to eat, or allow 100 or so guest ( again,hi-low ???) come up for a half hour fireworks show.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

no idea what the nightly capacity increase was

Four tables of four!!

Now whay not tell me if that was worth it!!

 

[KNWVIKING]

If all they added were four tables, I find it hard to believe then that that was the reason to close the deck. There has to be more to the story.

But 4x4 is 16....times how many seatings for lunch & dinner 8..10 ? That's a lot of satisfied diners.

BTW, you posted this: "However,Scoop's not the only one with sources!! I will try to verify!!"

Is that your way of telling me you don't believe the deck was open on 5-19-04 ?

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron It has nothing whatsoever to do with more people! Since the mid seventies, on many occasions, there was standing room only!!

On many occasions in the 80s and early 90s (offseason travel and probably mid-week), I viewed the fireworks from the deck with relatively few others.

Come on. Disney is the definitive expert at crowd control.

There's not much you can do in the way of crowd control when all you have is a fairly small observation deck, with limited points of access. Oh, wait, you can control the crowd by trying to move many of them down to the much larger deck on the mezzanine level!

 

[raidermatt]

Is that your way of telling me you don't believe the deck was open on 5-19-04 ?

If I may, you did not observe anyone barred at one time, while Baron's daughters were barred on two occasions (pending verfication).

If that is the case, then either the deck is still closed to non-diners at certain times, or enforcement is inconsistent. Not that he doesn't believe your statement.


Peter/Crusader, more on your statements a little later. Sorry, but have to run now...

 

[manning]

Except that, prior to the internet age, relatively few folks even knew about the deck.

Oh, I don't know. The deck was always busy when I was there. And I been going at least yearly since 1972.

Was there internet then??? Or maybe word of mouth.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Bear

On many occasions in the 80s and early 90s (offseason travel and probably mid-week), I viewed the fireworks from the deck with relatively few others.

I’m sorry. I’m a little confused. Just what has this statement got to do with anything!!?? So during the week, off season, it was empty. Hey!! Guess what? So was TOT and Splash!! Does this mean that fast pass isn’t necessary because DancingBear experienced TOT in the off season and during the week and found they were empty!! What does that mean in relation to the question at hand? I really don’t know.

Oh, wait, you can control the crowd by trying to move many of them down to the much larger deck on the mezzanine level!

Yeah boy! That view sure is breathtaking!! Nothing like dumbing down the experience.

Or how about controlling the crowds by removing the few tables that are currently sitting where the lounge once stood. Hey!! You know what!?!?! This would totally eliminate the problem!!!

But… Nah! Where’s the profit in that!!!!

 

[raidermatt]

All we've done is witness how the evolution of progress gradually replaces quality at every turn.

They have redefined magic.

And as long as that magic breeds the same way within them as it did for us this company will never be broken.

That line of thinking is contrary to what Disney was supposed to be about. (Peter, I'm truly surprised you simply placed your stamp of approval on this)

If that is the way the entire company thinks, then the true Disney is indeed dead, with no hope of reviving it. What's left? Disney with that trademark symbol I don't know how to get my PC to make.

Certainly capable of remaining a viable entertainment company (though current management is struggling even at that level), but not the sort of thing that is going to be to the next generations what it was to past generations.

I happen to think there are those within the company who think this is as much a crock as I do, but I'm just not sure they (or others who think as they do) will ever control the company again. Going back is never easy.

(Now, don't take my 'going back' as a statement that everything should go back to the way Walt ran things... I'm talking about overall philosophy)

 

[KNWVIKING]

One of my interpretations of Walts philosophy & business practice was to spend whatever it took to make The Show good. Put real gold on the castle instead of paint, crystal chandiliers instead of glass. Make something so extrordinary that people will come. Sounds great. In the article on SaveDisney about or by Roy Sr. one of the portions that stuck out to me was his premise that making a steady 5% or so year after year was a good thing, something he an Walt were doing. Makes perfect sense. Keeps your foundations solid, know what to expect. Good solid company.

What company could survive today with returns that low. Stockholders are demanding double digit returns. They want dividends. How can Disney go back to Walt & Roys business model. It's one thing if you own the company lock,stock and barrel, where the only person you answer too is yourself, but I don't see it happening today.

 

[raidermatt]

There are different ways to grow.

Continually squeezing mature businesses to generate increasing rates of return comensurate with a "growth" company is a tough strategy to maintain long term.

I think that's probably more what the Savedisney folks are talking about.

If the overall company does indeed need to grow at a greater rate, it needs to come from expansion of current businesses, or investment in new businesses. That's what they attempted to do with DCA and AK, and have had "spotty" results when it comes to achieving projections.

By contrast, the cruise line looks to be something that has helped with the growth numbers.

One of the problems comes when you get so obsessed with a certain level of growth that you make bad or over-priced acquisitions, then try to squeeze existing businesses to make up the slack.

You can end up killing the golden goose (or at least put a hurtin' on it.)


So I honestly think the company can grow at a rate acceptable to investors without placing unreasonable demands on the more mature pieces of the business. But the company is going to need to make better overall investment decisions, as well as improve their execution.

 

[WDSearcher]

But isn't another problem that people can get so obsessed with staying the same?

I mean, the level of anger raged at not being able to watch fireworks from the deck at California Grill any more is just mind-boggling to me. I LOVE the fact that I have an easier time getting a PS at California Grill because there's a little more capacity, and I love the fact that I can go out onto the deck if I want to without a gaggle of other people who have disrupted my dining experience by traipsing up to the top of the Contemporary. Because all those people wandering out of the elevators and into the bathrooms and out onto the deck and then back again were never quiet, or mindful of the fact that people were actually having dinner and trying to enjoy the atmosphere. But, see, my opinion doesn't carry as much weight because I'm not raging against the current machine. It probably makes me elitist because I'm eating there in the first place.

My question to Landbaron is ... have you ever SEEN the fireworks from the mezz level? If you have, and you hated it, then okay. I respect that opinion. Don't agree with it, but I respect it. But if you haven't, then how do you know the experience is that horrible? And how is it "dumbed down?" Out on the deck, there were bugs, people smoking, bad audio (if any at all). It was hot and muggy and often rainy in the summer or cold in the winter. On the mezz I've still got clear sight lines, better audio, climate control, and a heck of a view. It's less crowded because there's more room to spread out, and you never have to worry about someone's kids trying to climb up onto something they shouldn't be climbing up onto. Why is inside on the mezz automatically worse than outside on the deck? Sometimes change can actually improve an experience.

How can you be so sure that Walt wouldn't have said, "You need to improve the show for the people who come to the Contemporary to see the fireworks ... figure out a way that they can enjoy the show without all the heat and rain?" How can you be so sure that Walt wouldn't have said, "You need to improve the show for the people in the restaurant ... figure out a way that the other guests can watch the fireworks from the Contemporary without disturbing the diners?"

 

[raidermatt]

If the idea was to provide a better alternative, and they succeeded, there would be no need to bar anyone from the CG deck. The vast majority would choose to go to the mezzanine, and the few who went to the CG deck wouldn't be enough to worry about.

But if they find the need to ban people (at least part of the time), there must still be significant demand.

So then it comes down to the ban vs. the extra tables.

Its true, the extra tables certainly are appreciated by some, but you have to admit it doesn't look like a benevolent decision when you consider how many extra people are pleased because they get into CG vs. how many aren't happy about being banned from the deck.

Maybe Walt would have asked for an improved situation, but its not likely that his solution would have been to add a few tables and then ban people from the deck.

But really, this is a relatively small decision, and the point is not so much how this individual situation turned out, but moreso the philosophy behind it and many other decisions. Its hard to argue that there hasn't at least been some shift away from the very customer-focused strategy that was used "back in the day".

That doesn't mean they don't give a rat's rear about the guest, just that relatively speaking, it doesn't hold the same priority as it once did, and that's unfortunate.

 

[KNWVIKING]

None of us really have the facts about why the deck was closed to outsiders but my assumption was that diners were complaining. As a business - which Disney is - the choice seemed fairly obvious; If paying guests are complaining about deck traffic, the easiest thing to do is close the deck. Magical- no. Effective- yes.

Until these boards....actually until Baron's post about them closing the deck... I never knew about the deck. Does Birnum's (sp) write about it ? Who were the guests using the deck back in the day ? Guests of CR that passed the word onto their friends ? Were they locals who knew how to take advantage of all the free magic...at the expense of paying guests ?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Sometimes change can actually improve an experience.

Alas, some don't ever get that far. Something changed......something they loved.....and next to nothing could make that ok .

Sure, it isn't always that extreme, but it is hard to get people to accept new things sometimes. If it is someone as stubborn as Baron (luv ya, LB )........fuggetaboudit.

To be honest, I don't know if the mezz is an improvement in the CR fireworks experience or not. I also don't know if "taking away" the observation deck is the travesty it is made out to be or not. What I do know is that there are ten sides to every story......and I doubt we've heard all of them on that subject. I can say this. If I was paying beaucoup bucks to dine at the CG and transient fireworks watchers in any way impacted my experience I wouldn't be too happy. Maybe that never happened. Maybe the number of viewers was growing and it was starting to. I really don't know......but I still don't think it is as big an issue as some make it out to be.

Now, onto this concept.......

And as long as that magic breeds the same way within them as it did for us this company will never be broken.

Now even Matt and Baron would have to agree that if ALL of this statement is absolutely true, then the conclusion would be correct. If the Disney of today is able to instill the same sense of wonder, awe, loyalty and love that it created in Baron some 30 plus years ago, then Disney may be different, but it is not broken.

So the question is, can the Disney of today do that? That is a question I can't answer. I can say this. My children will have no less love for Disney than I ever did. Of course that isn't entirely fair though, as we helped, and continue, to instill that in them.

The Beta test for today's Disney is the first time visitor of today, alone, on their own, left to truely form their own opinions. Is THAT person going to love Disney in 30 years the way Baron did and does today? I'd say that yes, some will.......while others won't. The next most important question is in what percentages. Disney today is breeding magic in some today as strong as it did in us years ago. However, if the percentages are lower it's a bad thing.

I don't think Disney today is winning converts at the same percentage. Therefore, it is indeed broken. However, it is not beyond repair and with the right changes is no more than a year or two (or less) away from being fixed. True, the "broken" Disney of today could continue as is, unchanged, and still be the number one resort destination in the country, creating lots of loyal fans, instilling awe and wonder and creating fantastic entertainment (because it IS still doing all of that today) for more generations than we could possibly count. However, that would leave a certain cursed segment of the population knowing, and longing, for what could have been.

Will those changes come? I still think yes....and I can be patient. Of course I don't think what we have today is chopped liver, so it isn't that hard to be patient.