Is Carousel of Progress closing?

[dropout]

I saw CoP on New Year's day and only noticed one thing that bothered me. The son in the last segment had a clicky face, whenever he spoke I could hear his animatronics move. Other than that it played well. The sound was clear, the rest of the animatronics ran well, the lighting was on queue, the theatre didn't look unkempt. The last segment seemed somewhat updated since I last saw it 5 years ago, they talked about and included a high def TV and maybe updated the computers, anyway. Just minor things. Other than that it's a fun artifact.

 

[newdeal]

We love the COP. I would be sad if they changed it because its a classic attraction. I doubt they will because of the money it would cost to put something else there. The building itself would probobly be useless for anything else anyway since the ride mechinism is most of the building

 

[Disneyholic]

But in english that a layman like myself can understand: a leaky faucet does not requires familiarity to know that it isn't working. Walt Disney, the guy whose name is on this attraction, would be more than a little peeved that it's leaking. But if that's the kind of unreasonable attitude that should lead him to skip the attraction, then I'll accompany him to another attraction. Why whenever I have asked why CoP has been allowed to slowly die before us - knowing full-well the costs involved with restoring it - am I met with such flippancy? I love how Robo hasn't even returned to the thread. All knowing Robo who can't even volley back a disagreement about an attraction. This is what the DIS is about, yes? But instead, you spout what you know and use big words and sentences to frighten people away, end conversations, and belittle those around you (something you do in a lot of your posts and then accuse others of. I have been on a lot of threads where you like to stir things up and when someone stops posting you attack them for leaving).

Why you should suggest my leaving WDW over my issue with ONE attraction (another situation with you twisting other peoples words to what you THINK they are saying, so you can attack them.) just illustrates the beauty of your chosen screen name. Completely hilarious and even moreso considering the flack that I have gotten for merely talking about ATTRACTIONS.

Unbelievable and yet... totally believable.(Yes, you are totally unbelievable.)[/QUOTE]

No: Don't cop out. It doesn't take a college degree for an adult to realize that it is unreasonable to expect what you're complaining about (Agreed).

No he probably wouldn't, given the scale of the Disney Company, and given that what you seem to "know" about him is the mythos he tried to craft for himself, rather than his reality(Agreed).

I think the problem is that you're considering anything other than your own personal perspective as "flippancy", when in reality it is the absolutism that you're projecting that best fits that label(Agreed).

I don't speak for Robo, and I don't really agree with Robo's approach, which appears, to me, to be: "Tell the truth - the cold, hard truth - once, and if the reader doesn't get it, that's their problem." I operate by what I feel is a more respectful perspective, engaging in a dialogue, trying to explain the point several different ways. Neither Robo nor I are right or wrong; they're just two different approaches, both equally legitimate. ( I don't always agree with you, but you are at least respectful of the other posters opinion. And it appears that you actually read, and understand what others post.)

And while I will engage in a dialog, I won't respond to transgressive personal attacks on me(Agreed. At the point that I have been attacked on a thread, I start to ignore certain peoples posts knowing that I will eventually block everything they have to say if they keep going. How does that help a discussion? It doesn't, but then again, it isn't a discussion if you are being attacked).

The Trip Planning forums on the DIS is actually about helping people to enjoy their Walt Disney World vacations. It isn't about fostering a never-ending death-spiral of dissatisfaction and disaffection. Every day we should be asking ourselves: What have you done, today, to help someone be better prepared to enjoy their upcoming vacation?Thank you, and now back to our friendly discussion of COP. [/QUOTE]

 

[Robo]

I doubt they will because of the money it would cost to put something else there. The building itself would probobly be useless for anything else anyway since the ride mechinism is most of the building

I agree that they should keep CoP open at WDW, but they already have a history of finding
other uses for that kind of ride structure.

After the original CoP closed at Disneyland,
the building was first converted into another "rotating stage" attraction (America Sings) and
then it was used for CM offices for awhile, and
then it was converted into a Disneyland version of Innoventions.

 

[goofyernmost]

Hahah! My sister lives in MA and I live just north of you guys in Vermont - must be something in the water up here because I LOVE COP!

Me too!

I don't know what's more painful to me, the idea that it continues as a mere shell of what it once was, or to be sadly put out of its misery.

When was your last visit? For me it was last year. I didn't see worn carpeting or broken seats. I have on occasion seen parts of animatronics broken but if one takes the time to consider that this show runs continuously everyday (each section) and has for years and years, I think we can forgive an occasional equipment malfunction.

I think that the problem is that the attraction, itself, was not designed to last forever. I'm not talking about the story, but rather about the mechanics. It's old technology, and there are now better ways of telling the same story. My hope for CoP is that they will take the whole attraction and re-imagine it using some other, more modern technology, so that it could live another 50+ years.

I agree that should be possible, but I'm not sure it is necessary although it certainly would enhance it. Or as Walt would say, "Plus It".

I've seen every version of the CoP since it was moved to Disneyland from the 1964 NY World's Fair, then moved to MK when WDW opened, then "restored" (to its currently-running version, decades ago.)

The version playing at MK now is very close to the original version personally supervised by Walt, himself.

Yes, the last scene is now long-dated, but so are all of the scenes preceding it.
I see no reason to "update" it, any more than one needs to "update" a classic film.

It exists, frozen in time, for those who want to see it in a "classic" form.

It was fun, back when CoP was first constructed, to exit out the "front" of the theater
(where the stage is in the last "stop" on the circuit) whereupon guests could view another free-standing "scene"
of a working model of Walt's "City of Tomorrow" narrated by the unseen voices of the "father and mother" of the show.

That city model (some would call it an early version of Walt's original idea of the "real" EPCOT) can now
be viewed along the route when guests ride the TTA PeopleMover.


.

As usual Robo is right on the money. There is no need for CoP to remain current. Without it's original section we would not know where we came from in the terms of technology. How many of us were alive at the end of the 19th century? How do we easily show ourselves, our children, grandchildren, and so on, what it was like before. Heck, my kids, now fully grown and middle aged (close) never knew anything but color TV. It can and should remain as a historic attraction and in Tomorrowland. It is impossible to appreciate tomorrow or today, for that matter, without knowing what it was like in the past.

There have been rumors of this closure since 2007. At this point, I would say it is still just people talking.

I found that the rumor goes back at least as far as 2001 ===> http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=116488

Shortly before "Alien" closed CoP was seasonal. That was either the last 1990's or very early 2000's. When "Alien" was closed they opened it up full time again to help take up some of the slack in Tomorrowland. Due to popular demand it has remained open since then. The rumor surfaces on a regular basis and has many reasons why it should close. Those range from "it's outdated" to "it is worn out mechanically and cannot be repaired". That's all a massive pile of do-do. It's only outdated if you cannot see the significance of history and to even say that it's worn out and cannot be repaired is almost laughable. It was built with 1960's technology and now you say that with today's technology it cannot be duplicated, is just crazy talk.

I agree that they should keep CoP open at WDW, but they already have a history of finding
other uses for that kind of ride structure.

After the original CoP closed at Disneyland,
the building was first converted into another "rotating stage" attraction (America Sings) and
then it was used for CM offices for awhile, and
then it was converted into a Disneyland version of Innoventions.

And that totally tells you that the mechanics are just fine. Granted the last time I was at Disneyland was 2005, but the floor (which has been sited as a mechanical nightmare, was still rotating only now it is constant instead of between shows. How broken is that?

 

[harpinjean]

I love CoP just the way it is. It is another classic Disney ride, why change it? Could you change the last scene and try to predict what a household will look like in 50 years? Sure, but I don't think it is necessary. I think it is neat to see how things progressed in the 20th century.

 

[Twinprincesses]

I love COP, however I just wish they would update the last portion when they are talking about Laser Disc. I love going in there and just relaxing. I still remmeber when they switched they theme song when I was a kid and it threw me off.

 

[newdeal]

I am guessing that among the remaining old school animatronics these must be some of the more complex just because of the amount of time you sit watching them for. most of the other old rides you are moving past the animatronics and only see each one for a few seconds

 

[bicker]

It's only outdated if you cannot see the significance of history

"The significance of history" is ultimately subjective, and beyond that, it isn't a private, for-profit company's responsibility to acknowledge and foster the preservation of history - that's society's collective responsibility. Let society pony-up the money necessary to preserve CoP, if it is really that significant.

and to even say that it's worn out and cannot be repaired is almost laughable. It was built with 1960's technology and now you say that with today's technology it cannot be duplicated, is just crazy talk.

Who said "it cannot be duplicated"? Surely that wasn't anything Disney said. I think sometimes we listen to what a company, like Disney, says, and then convert it into something simpler, and easier to argue against. However, that changes the statement from what they did say into something that they did not say. We cannot legitimate look at statements as a smorgasbord of words; we cannot legitimately pick and choose which words we want to consider relevant to the issue and which we prefer to ignore, without the result being misunderstanding the statement.

And generally, the opposite is true: What is relevant to this issue is not only every word said, but also what is not said.

In this case, what Disney probably won't say is that the cost of the attraction exceeds the extent to which customers are driven to visit the theme park due to the attraction. It is like paying $40 per week for the local newspaper - it's not worth that much. And by extension, replacing the attraction with the same attraction, but implemented with less expensive-to-maintain 2000s technology would probably fall into the same category: Simply not worth that much.

Love isn't money. That's the problem.

 

[goofyernmost]

I love COP, however I just wish they would update the last portion when they are talking about Laser Disc. I love going in there and just relaxing. I still remmeber when they switched they theme song when I was a kid and it threw me off.

Now is the time...now is the best time... Ya that was my first introduction to it. It has the finest of memories for me and my first visit in 1983. My young daughters and I sang it all the way back from Florida to Vermont. Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow (the original) took me a little longer to warm up to but then I realized that in a small way that song helped me get through a rough time in my life, so I am now a fan of that as well. As for the laser Disc reference, I'm sure just a simple change in dialog could fix that, and they probably should.

"The significance of history" is ultimately subjective, and beyond that, it isn't a private, for-profit company's responsibility to acknowledge and foster the preservation of history - that's society's collective responsibility. Let society pony-up the money necessary to preserve CoP, if it is really that significant.

So your saying that the preservation of history is only society's responsibility. Why isn't a private, for profit company part of society as well. Aren't private companies made up of individuals that comprise society? Wouldn't that make it more "collective"? I do not suppose that it is historically significant in the sense that you seem to be implying, but, it is graphically helpful in being able to appreciate what we have now.

Who said "it cannot be duplicated"? Surely that wasn't anything Disney said. I think sometimes we listen to what a company, like Disney, says, and then convert it into something simpler, and easier to argue against. However, that changes the statement from what they did say into something that they did not say. We cannot legitimate look at statements as a smorgasbord of words; we cannot legitimately pick and choose which words we want to consider relevant to the issue and which we prefer to ignore, without the result being misunderstanding the statement.

And generally, the opposite is true: What is relevant to this issue is not only every word said, but also what is not said.

In this case, what Disney probably won't say is that the cost of the attraction exceeds the extent to which customers are driven to visit the theme park due to the attraction. It is like paying $40 per week for the local newspaper - it's not worth that much. And by extension, replacing the attraction with the same attraction, but implemented with less expensive-to-maintain 2000s technology would probably fall into the same category: Simply not worth that much.

Love isn't money. That's the problem.

I don't know where the concept came from originally but I have heard it repeated often whenever CoP discussions start up. I believe it was the excuse used when it was moved from Disneyland to Disney World.

No one says that you have to like it or go to it, but for you to say that, I don't like it so let's get rid of it, is not acceptable either. Many people enjoy the nostalgia and (OK, sugariness) of an old attractions like CoP. There are not many of them left and I think that getting rid of it is a sure sign the Disney only cares about the bottom line. They have plenty of room there to put in anything they want without necessarily destroying what is there now. Update it or don't update it...it doesn't really matter as long as it is there.

 

[RainbowBrite]

Another Mass fan here!

 

[WeemanMom]

Somehow we never got around to going to CoP in past trips...then in 2008 we went on. Not because I wanted to, but because the kids wanted to see what it was. I loved it. A bit corny, but I think that is why I liked it. My husband and my two younger children liked it. The older one (16 at the time, now 19) liked it but hated the song. So... you know siblings. Her younger sliblings LOVE to sing to her. Looking forward to seeing it in August!

 

[bicker]

it isn't a private, for-profit company's responsibility to acknowledge and foster the preservation of history - that's society's collective responsibility.

So your saying that the preservation of history is only society's responsibility.

I'm not sure what might have been confusing about what I wrote.

Why isn't a private, for profit company part of society as well.

Because it isn't. Generally, companies have their own missions and their own priorities. The government can impose additional requirements on companies, but it has not. You perhaps wish that it had; or perhaps you wish it would when it is good for you, but perhaps not when it would impose such an obligation on you or your interests. Regardless, it has not. That's the point.

Aren't private companies made up of individuals that comprise society?

Private companies are made up of individuals who come together for purposes of their own choosing.

No one says that you have to like it or go to it,

What the heck are you talking about? I like it, and I go to it. That has nothing to do with anything. I think the fact that you seem to think it is relevant may be a source of confusion for you.

but for you to say that, I don't like it so let's get rid of it, is not acceptable either.

I didn't say that. Perhaps you are confusing me with another poster. What I said is that Disney has legitimate foundation for shutting the attraction down, should the PR cost of doing so go down a bit, or the cost of maintenance go up a bit. I'm not advocating that they close it; I'm trying to help folks understand and accept why it makes sense that it would close, despite your decent arguments that it should not close.

I think that getting rid of it is a sure sign the Disney only cares about the bottom line.

If, as a matter of standard practice, Disney puts anything above the bottom-line, as a stockholder I will vote against the current slate of Directors and/or participate in what will surely be a massive class-action lawsuit against them. Preserving history is a "nice to have". Fulfilling their fiduciary responsibility to their owners is an absolute and legal requirement.

 

[Lewisc]

I was in the MK 12/29. The park was packed. Phase 2 closing. There was less then a 10 minute wait for the people mover (whatever it's currently called). CoP was a walk on.

Look at the fan favorite attractions that were updated. Mr. Toad was a walk on, Pooh has long lines. The lines for Buzz Light Year are far longer then the lines for Dreamflight.

CoP has nostalgic value. The rumor is the motors that turn the theater sears are becoming expensive to maintain. Not easy to get parts.

Disney may have learned from 20K Leagues the eyesore that can result from closing an attraction but not using the space.

Opening CoP for limited hours is a reasonable compromise.

 

[HWKI2]

No it isnt closing. Occasionally it will be closed during low periods.

 

[Sassagoula Billy]

When was your last visit? For me it was last year. I didn't see worn carpeting or broken seats. I have on occasion seen parts of animatronics broken but if one takes the time to consider that this show runs continuously everyday (each section) and has for years and years, I think we can forgive an occasional equipment malfunction.

My last visit was in June of 2010. Every one of my visits since the mid-00s (maybe earlier, I can't keep score) I've noticed maintenance issues. And my friend, who joined me on my most recent trip also noticed that something was wrong. And it was his first trip to WDW!

I have had countless discussions with people in the real world about the leaky faucet that is CoP, but only on internet discussion forums do people think I'm speaking greek. I'm not talking occasional equipment malfunctions, I'm talking head to toe problems. Consistent head to toe problems. I wrote to Disney two years ago to express my outrage over such a classic attraction being left to slowly die and erode before our eyes. This is an attraction that is very near and dear to my heart.

 

[bicker]

It could be that acquaintances "in the real world" simply don't care enough to contradict you.

 

[Sassagoula Billy]

I have some pretty passionate Disney friends, including those who have their own podcasts. They agree with me. It's my experience that Disney forums are riddled with prejudice and bias. Fervent, I might add. I can talk theater, politics, classic film, music on countless forums - with ease. But Disney? It's like 75% of the posters were dropped as children.

 

[goofyernmost]

I have some pretty passionate Disney friends, including those who have their own podcasts. They agree with me. It's my experience that Disney forums are riddled with prejudice and bias. Fervent, I might add. I can talk theater, politics, classic film, music on countless forums - with ease. But Disney? It's like 75% of the posters were dropped as children.

My, my...what a nice thing to say. I don't know how anyone could help but love you. Such a sweetheart.

 

[Sassagoula Billy]

My, my...what a nice thing to say. I don't know how anyone could help but love you. Such a sweetheart.

Thanks!

But back to the discussion. What do you say about my passionate Disney friends who agree with me on this issue vs. forums such as this and Intercot? Surely you can't deny that posters overlook the flies in the ointment when it comes to Disney attractions (the Yeti notwithstanding). Oh parades, alcohol, hotels, sure. But attractions? It's like saying a negative word against Graceland to an Elvis acolyte. When truly, all I care about - and am passionate about on this forum - is having the best guest experience. And if that means critiquing the quality of the attractions, I'm going to wade through. It's a good thing I did a few months ago because I found many like-minded people here who agreed with me on a lot of things.

It's just the old guard (for the most part). Prejudiced, biased and completely unwelcoming. They quote three words out of three paragraphs and form an opinion. It's like talking to Bill O'Reilly. Or you get a condescending history lesson that evades the issue.