International Baccalaureate?

[golfgal]

maddiel, no I don't think you're being argumentative at all...

No, our kids' school doesn't offer any sort of 10th Grade sampling of the IB program. They offer "advanced" classes in many subjects, but none associated with the IB program or designed to be an "intro" to IB coursework. Their official response to that in their IB FAQ document is that their 9th and 10th grade curriculum is "aligned" with the IB program and will provide sufficient preparation. The school also has no prerequisites for entering the IB program.

And you're right, the Chem/Physics problem my daughter had may have been a local school issue... or, upon more thought, it might have been something like a decision to take both classes made during her Junior year that her class selection that year might not have allowed for both science classes come her Senior year. The bottom line was that she was told that she couldn't take both classes and complete the requirements for her IB diploma and she would have to choose one or the other. This was three years ago, and some of the finer details I may not be recalling.

I'll certainly agree that if your school doesn't offer another option like the AP classes that are pretty standard fare here in the US, then that certainly would affect the calculus of the situation. The bottom line for us was that after talking to parents of recent graduates of our IB program and finding out that they found that the IB diploma endorsement was a non-factor in their college admissions/scholarship process and none of them received any college credit from their IB work, and after talking to a number of the high school teachers (my wife is a teacher in the district, and teacher-to-teacher assessments are always less guarded) and hearing from them the same story, we asked ourselves "Why sit here and watch our daughter continue to go through this with no realistic additional benefit?"

We have two high schools in our city. One offers IB (ours) and the other one doesn't. Both offer AP classes. One of the criticisms of the IB program at our school is that it drains away resources that could be used for AP classes, and our school's AP program isn't as robust as it could be. Our school understandably likes to use its IB program to promote itself over "the other school" and their web site is peppered with such language to tout the IB program as one that "colleges and universities recognize the efforts and achievements of IB students" and they "award successful candidates college credit, waivers, or other benefits." It's this sort of rhetoric that I feel is overblown. However, I will give them partial credit in noting deep in the FAQ that "IB recognition varies widely among universities."

How much of this is the chicken/egg argument as well-naturally the more motivated students will gravitate to the more challenging programs and will naturally do better in college for the most part.

What we found when looking for schools for DS18 and now with our sophomores is that MOST schools recognize AP/IB in the same vein and some offer actual college credit but MOST use it more as a CLEP type program where they will allow incoming freshmen to move to a 200 level class vs having to take the 100 level class but they don't actually have fewer overall classes they have to take as a result. Most schools DO give actual credit on a transcript for the post secondary classes kids are taking because they are taking actual COLLEGE classes either on a 4 year college campus or at the high school taught by a college professor. Many are NOT giving the same credit for classes taken at a community college (at least in our area) though. These credits actually reduce the number of classes you take in college, reducing your costs and time spent in college. Some colleges do put a limit on how many credits they will accept but generally most kids can get a year's worth of credit through these classes, and some up to 2 years.

 

[TLuvsD]

Keep in mind that each school implements the IB program in a slightly different way. At D's school (she's a Junior, full IB) they have integrated AP and IB...so the classes that are Standard Level are also AP, and they get AP credit. The HL classes will gain credit at most Universities. In our state, you end up starting college as a sophmore, having fulfilled a number of general ed requirements...even at the state flagships. At both private schools D is currently considering they give credit for IB (very competitive schools and it's nearly a year's worth of credit) and they really like to see IB canidates apply. The IB canidates KNOW how to succeed in school, they can manage their time, they can prioritize. (we talked to admission reps without telling them D was in IB)

You also need to ask about the passing rate for the Diploma. D's program is very highly rated nationally, and over 90% of the students receive the diploma. (The only one who didn't in recent years basically dropped out senior year--family issues.)

D has an excellent GPA, she's able to participate in very involved extra curricular activities, she goes to movies with friends, etc. The time commitment is going to vary from child to child.

The IB program is great for the right student, but it's not for every student. And a lot of that can depend on how your school implements the program. Ask a lot of questions...you can pm me if you want.

 

[Cindy B]

My kids both went to IB Middle School. My son didn't exactly love it, but my daughter thrived in the school. I loved the community service aspect.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My only familiarity with it is through my SIL. She did IB her freshman year of high school. She is a perfectionist and did the work required to get an A. Probably worked much harder than she needed to, but spent many nights up until midnight and later. She was burnt out by year's end, but she had a 4.0 (unweighted). She left the program and went to her zoned high school and did the traditional challenging academic program with the highest level available of whatever her class was taking. She did graduate valedictorian.

So my observation--it is challenging, but should your student decide it is not for them, be open to switching out of it.

I have no idea what it means for college as I'm not privvy to what she did and did not do in her college selection process and her college academic career.

I do know that DH and I were a bit surprised with the college that she chose.

 

[tvguy]

. Colleges will absolutely view it as favorable.

Not so much anymore. I've got 2 kids in college, and a lot of colleges are moving away from any extra consideration for IB or AP classes. Same with SAT and ACT scores. It will benefit your child, just don't expect any extra college consideration for it, especially on the West Coast.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm still doing my homework on it too, so this has been an interesting thread and I look forward to more. My main concern for my DD is the workload. She has her sights set on a IB magnet high school in the next district over, but she's a super-involved kid - baseball, cheer, student government, scouts, 4H - and I don't know that she really understands that if she goes into the IB program academics will pretty much have to be her life at the expense of many of those other things. Fortunately, we still have a few years to decide, to see how the program is implemented (it is only in its 2nd year now), and to talk to a few parents I know who have older kids planning on going into the program.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Not so much anymore. I've got 2 kids in college, and a lot of colleges are moving away from any extra consideration for IB or AP classes. Same with SAT and ACT scores. It will benefit your child, just don't expect any extra college consideration for it, especially on the West Coast.

My understanding from the guidance counselors here is that if you want to get into a top school you need to have taken the most challenging courses available to you. So, if your high school offers AP and IB and you don't take advantage of any of it, it will be held against you. But if you attend a smaller school, home school, school without AP etc . . . your chances can still be good.

I'm not sure that getting the full IB diploma counts for much more than taking as selection of IB and AP classes, or just AP classes, though.

 

[golfgal]

Not so much anymore. I've got 2 kids in college, and a lot of colleges are moving away from any extra consideration for IB or AP classes. Same with SAT and ACT scores. It will benefit your child, just don't expect any extra college consideration for it, especially on the West Coast.

Or the Midwest

My understanding from the guidance counselors here is that if you want to get into a top school you need to have taken the most challenging courses available to you. So, if your high school offers AP and IB and you don't take advantage of any of it, it will be held against you. But if you attend a smaller school, home school, school without AP etc . . . your chances can still be good.

I'm not sure that getting the full IB diploma counts for much more than taking as selection of IB and AP classes, or just AP classes, though.

If a student wants to get into a "top college" they are going to be taking AP classes anyway. Keep in mind that a VERY, VERY low percentage of kids get into a "top college" anyway and that every other student is taking these classes too, which is why they don't really help you all that much. Often admissions to "top colleges" happens more because you fit a demographic they are trying to fill. Colleges really don't view the IB programs any differently then they do the AP programs. From our experience, they actually often prefer the AP programs because the students get to select the courses they want, have a wider variety of courses and don't have a regimented program to keep them on track--they learn that on their own.

The IB parents by into the marketing of the program because they want the "best" for their kids. If your school went on and on about another program at your school that was "the best" I be many parents would jump ship to that program-even if it really isn't "the best".

Basically, IB is a college prep course of study that will help you prepare for college but don't expect colleges to see IB on your transcript and offer you the world because you went through the IB program.

Also, define "top college". To me "top college" is Ivy or equivalent. For us, we will probably have our kids apply at some Ivy's just because it is cheaper to attend those then even our state schools. If they get in, great, if not, we have plenty of great schools in the area where they can attend and do just fine.

 

[maddiel]

From our experience, they actually often prefer the AP programs because the students get to select the courses they want, have a wider variety of courses and don't have a regimented program to keep them on track--they learn that on their own.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded part? How do you think the IB is more regimented?

The IB parents by into the marketing of the program because they want the "best" for their kids. If your school went on and on about another program at your school that was "the best" I be many parents would jump ship to that program-even if it really isn't "the best".

I didn't just "by" into the marketing. We were in fact quite skeptical about the "IB is the best" claims. From my experience of having a child in the program, and of knowing students (at more than one school) who are in the program, who have finished the program and who decided not to continue with it after the prep program, if it's a good fit it is one of the best ways for a student to prepare for university. For some other students its an exercise in frustration.

Basically, IB is a college prep course of study that will help you prepare for college but don't expect colleges to see IB on your transcript and offer you the world because you went through the IB program.

I never expected DD to be offered the world, but I did expect her to get a few credits and learn some extra skills that she wouldn't have learned in the regular program; I think that's happened. I also expected they would look at her more favourably for scholarships, which also seems to be the case.

I have a question about AP courses - from what I've read here and online it sounds like students are only scored on their exams. Is that true or are there other assessments, like essays or labs?

I'm also struck by how many people have said the IB is only offered in poorly performing schools. I wonder why that is and if that affects how it is perceived by universities?

M.

 

[golfgal]

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded part? How do you think the IB is more regimented?



I didn't just "by" into the marketing. We were in fact quite skeptical about the "IB is the best" claims. From my experience of having a child in the program, and of knowing students (at more than one school) who are in the program, who have finished the program and who decided not to continue with it after the prep program, if it's a good fit it is one of the best ways for a student to prepare for university. For some other students its an exercise in frustration.



I never expected DD to be offered the world, but I did expect her to get a few credits and learn some extra skills that she wouldn't have learned in the regular program; I think that's happened. I also expected they would look at her more favourably for scholarships, which also seems to be the case.

I have a question about AP courses - from what I've read here and online it sounds like students are only scored on their exams. Is that true or are there other assessments, like essays or labs?

I'm also struck by how many people have said the IB is only offered in poorly performing schools. I wonder why that is and if that affects how it is perceived by universities?

M.

The IB program is what it is, you take classes x, y, z and that is it. You have pattern or whatever you want to call it to follow and a certain way to do that. With the AP program, you have 30 some choices of classes--add in the college level classes and you have over 50 different courses you can take (at least at our school). You can design your own course of study. If you favor math and science, you can structure your schedule that way-but we still have requirements for English and Social so you still have to take those, for example.

AP-to get college "credit" you have to score a 3 or higher on an end of the year exam given through the National AP whatever (basically demonstrating that you learned the equivalent material to what you would have learned had you taken this class in college). Like I said earlier, colleges have or mostly have gone away from giving actual college credit for AP and IB programs (I think mainly because of money but they don't come out and say that). They are mainly used now to move from a general level college course into a higher level college course. You don't actually see the AP or IB class on your college transcript like you once did. Through out the school year they have tests, labs, etc. to determine your grade in the AP class just like any other class you take in high school.

In our area I know that is mainly because kids take so many COLLEGE level classes on college campuses or at the high school taught by college professors. Most states have something like this, usually thorough their community college system though, our's is through the University system.

As for scholarships-it depends. There won't be any preferential treatment for college sponsored scholarships because someone has an IB background vs an AP. Those are pretty much determined by overall GPA and/or ACT/SAT scores. There might be some IB specific scholarships out there through private sources but I am not sure about that.

Around here it is offered in underperforming schools because it is less expensive and since it is a structured program, everyone pretty much taking the same classes, you can offer the program to fewer students. At the better schools there are enough kids to take AP classes. We have 12 sections of sophomores taking AP biology this year at our high school, for example. There was a study done for the Minneapolis schools a couple years ago and district wide they only had 99 kids in their IB program. That is just over 2 sections of an AP class district wide (5 or 6 high schools of comparable size to our high school).

 

[maddiel]

The IB program is what it is, you take classes x, y, z and that is it. You have pattern or whatever you want to call it to follow and a certain way to do that. With the AP program, you have 30 some choices of classes--add in the college level classes and you have over 50 different courses you can take (at least at our school). You can design your own course of study. If you favor math and science, you can structure your schedule that way-but we still have requirements for English and Social so you still have to take those, for example.

AP-to get college "credit" you have to score a 3 or higher on an end of the year exam given through the National AP whatever (basically demonstrating that you learned the equivalent material to what you would have learned had you taken this class in college). Like I said earlier, colleges have or mostly have gone away from giving actual college credit for AP and IB programs (I think mainly because of money but they don't come out and say that). They are mainly used now to move from a general level college course into a higher level college course. You don't actually see the AP or IB class on your college transcript like you once did. Through out the school year they have tests, labs, etc. to determine your grade in the AP class just like any other class you take in high school.

In our area I know that is mainly because kids take so many COLLEGE level classes on college campuses or at the high school taught by college professors. Most states have something like this, usually thorough their community college system though, our's is through the University system.

As for scholarships-it depends. There won't be any preferential treatment for college sponsored scholarships because someone has an IB background vs an AP. Those are pretty much determined by overall GPA and/or ACT/SAT scores. There might be some IB specific scholarships out there through private sources but I am not sure about that.

Around here it is offered in underperforming schools because it is less expensive and since it is a structured program, everyone pretty much taking the same classes, you can offer the program to fewer students. At the better schools there are enough kids to take AP classes. We have 12 sections of sophomores taking AP biology this year at our high school, for example. There was a study done for the Minneapolis schools a couple years ago and district wide they only had 99 kids in their IB program. That is just over 2 sections of an AP class district wide (5 or 6 high schools of comparable size to our high school).

You must have one honkin' big high school!

For comparison, DD17's school is one of the largest in NS with about 1500 students over 3 years and has about 55 students due to graduate in IB this year. There were about 240 kids who graduated for public school IB programs province-wide last year.

It's funny to think if it being offered because it's less expensive - here it's seen as being likely to be cut because it's seen as being a costly program.

Community Colleges are way different in Canada - they they are more like trade/technical schools. Tuition at community college here is about $2500 pa where as university tuition is ~$5-6000 for an in province student in NS (and they are marching in the streets because it's going up 3%!) There isn't the degree of financial incentive here to reduce university tuition by taking course credits in high school

M..

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I'm also struck by how many people have said the IB is only offered in poorly performing schools. I wonder why that is and if that affects how it is perceived by universities?

M.

Maddiel,

Our neighborhood school is now a full IB program from the primary year program through the diploma. While we are a Chicago Public School, we are not an under-performing school. We have an incredibly high-performing student body. We are also very international. For our school, the IB program was a natural fit because of the number of students who will likely be leaving after a year or two and returning to their home country. The IB program allows for an easier transfer/transition for them.

Different schools adopt the program for different reasons.

 

[golfgal]

You must have one honkin' big high school!

For comparison, DD17's school is one of the largest in NS with about 1500 students over 3 years and has about 55 students due to graduate in IB this year. There were about 240 kids who graduated for public school IB programs province-wide last year.

It's funny to think if it being offered because it's less expensive - here it's seen as being likely to be cut because it's seen as being a costly program.

Community Colleges are way different in Canada - they they are more like trade/technical schools. Tuition at community college here is about $2500 pa where as university tuition is ~$5-6000 for an in province student in NS (and they are marching in the streets because it's going up 3%!) There isn't the degree of financial incentive here to reduce university tuition by taking course credits in high school

M..

Actually, our high school sounds about the same size as yours, we have about 2000 students for 4 grades-so roughly 500/class.

Community Colleges are trade/tech schools here too. Colleges and Universities here are the same as Universities in Canada. Tuition at a Community college is in the $2-5K range (varies by state) where College/University tuition is in the $10-60K range, give or take.

 

[tvguy]

My understanding from the guidance counselors here is that if you want to get into a top school you need to have taken the most challenging courses available to you. So, if your high school offers AP and IB and you don't take advantage of any of it, it will be held against you. But if you attend a smaller school, home school, school without AP etc . . . your chances can still be good.

I'm not sure that getting the full IB diploma counts for much more than taking as selection of IB and AP classes, or just AP classes, though.

My daughter graduated from High school in 2009, and enrolled in the California State University system. Her Freshman class had the highest GPA, highest SAT and ACT scores, and highest percentage of AP students. They also had the highest percentage of students needed to take remedial English and Math classes.
This is an example of why many Colleges are rethinking how they rank students for admission.

 

[golfgal]

My daughter graduated from High school in 2009, and enrolled in the California State University system. Her Freshman class had the highest GPA, highest SAT and ACT scores, and highest percentage of AP students. They also had the highest percentage of students needed to take remedial English and Math classes.
This is an example of why many Colleges are rethinking how they rank students for admission.

What was the average score for their ACT/SAT? How many of the kids took the AP classes and how many passed?