Interesting Rolling Stone article on college debt

[disykat]

My brother and I were only young because of the Nov/Dec cutoff dates for school. My November birthday son started school a full year later than I did because his cutoff date for Kindergarten was before school started. The popularity of red shirting added to it, but the cutoff date was a huge part of it.

 

[Colleen27]

My brother and I were only young because of the Nov/Dec cutoff dates for school. My November birthday son started school a full year later than I did because his cutoff date for Kindergarten was before school started. The popularity of red shirting added to it, but the cutoff date was a huge part of it.

Redshirting and retention. There's a push to retain all 3rd graders not reading at level in my state, and holding back 2nd graders who are expected to perform poorly on the standardized tests was a pretty common practice even before the "reading or retention" efforts on the state level because for many years our test was administered in October so if a child wasn't on grade level in June, s/he was almost certain to be a drag on the school's scores come testing time. About a third of DS's graduating class was 19, most because they were retained in their first few years of schooling.

 

[Christine]

I too was 17 when I stared University as were many of my friends and my Son also. It was unheard of to have a 19 year old graduating high school but now seems to be usual.

That's the truth. I started college at 17. I had a December 30 birthday and the cutoff for our state at the time was December 31st so I was 4 when I started Kindergarten. Hardly anyone was delayed back then. By the time I graduated, there was maybe a handful of people who were almost 19 because they had failed a grade back in elementary school. Very few.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

When I entered school, the cutoff was 5 by September 30th. Now, it's July 31st.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

When I entered school, the cutoff was 5 by September 30th. Now, it's July 31st.

Ours use to be 5 by Oct 1, but this year they moved our district's kindergarten cutoff to a couple weeks before school starts. Dd turned 5 the day after the cutoff. We homeschool, so we went ahead and started her K cirriculum and will move to first grade next year, but the school system won't allow us to officially register as home schoolers until the fall. I think it would have been crazy to make her wait an entire extra year based on less that 24 hours' difference!

 

[rotlex]

This is part of the problem when the general public and students are led to believe the only way to be successful in life is to graduate high school, go to college, and then get a job. My wife and I are perfect examples as to why college, though it can be beneficial, is not necessary. We both went to technical and or trade type schools, earned certifications, learned a REAL skill, and frankly, had a very small debt, if any, in the end. We are married 30 years, have two children, vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. etc., all without every going to college.

College is force fed to youth today and these "institutions of higher learning" are nothing more than money making scams run by people who want nothing more than to give you bigger than mortgage sized debt with little to nothing in return. This country could do very well to start realizing technical jobs, skilled trades and many other things can get you as much if not FAR more than a degree.

Will my kids go to college? Probably, but I will sure as hell show them the other options available to them including the military, apprenticeships, and other means of learning and making a living.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

When I entered school, the cutoff was 5 by September 30th. Now, it's July 31st.

Ohh that's interesting. I just looked up and state law for my state is this: "children who turn 5 years old on or before Aug. 31, 2017, are eligible to attend kindergarten in the fall." (so I'm assuming August 31st is the cut off date for each year). And our schools typically start mid-August too at least right around me.

I think it's also interesting what @Colleen27 was talking about with withholding students from going onto the next grade.

I was always the young one in my bunch. One of my good friends turned 18 right when senior year of high school started and I turned 18 two weeks before high school graduation. My husband though was even younger than me as his b-day isn't until early July so he turned 18 about 1 1/2 months before college started.

 

[wenrob]

This is part of the problem when the general public and students are led to believe the only way to be successful in life is to graduate high school, go to college, and then get a job. My wife and I are perfect examples as to why college, though it can be beneficial, is not necessary. We both went to technical and or trade type schools, earned certifications, learned a REAL skill, and frankly, had a very small debt, if any, in the end. We are married 30 years, have two children, vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. etc., all without every going to college.

College is force fed to youth today and these "institutions of higher learning" are nothing more than money making scams run by people who want nothing more than to give you bigger than mortgage sized debt with little to nothing in return. This country could do very well to start realizing technical jobs, skilled trades and many other things can get you as much if not FAR more than a degree.

Will my kids go to college? Probably, but I will sure as hell show them the other options available to them including the military, apprenticeships, and other means of learning and making a living.

While I agree with you to a certain extent, working your way through the ranks is pretty rare these days. My DH started out as grunt worker in construction. They happened to be building a power plant. He took an interest and they took him in. He’s worked his way up through the years learning not just the skills required for his current title but skills for several trades that he can and has used. He makes a very good living. Never went to college. Used to be lots of father/son teams in his line of work. Dad got you in at the bottom and you worked your way up. You want an in now? You’ll be needing to show your degree for that. 30+ years ago it was as simple as just applying for a job. Not so much anymore.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary but I think *some* kind of formal training, be it trade school or college makes it easier to get your “in.” My DH’s current boss is a good 20+ years younger than he is. He has no idea “how it was.” He’s going to want to see your experience on paper. The guy with the degree is going to win there IMO.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This is part of the problem when the general public and students are led to believe the only way to be successful in life is to graduate high school, go to college, and then get a job. My wife and I are perfect examples as to why college, though it can be beneficial, is not necessary. We both went to technical and or trade type schools, earned certifications, learned a REAL skill, and frankly, had a very small debt, if any, in the end. We are married 30 years, have two children, vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. etc., all without every going to college.

College is force fed to youth today and these "institutions of higher learning" are nothing more than money making scams run by people who want nothing more than to give you bigger than mortgage sized debt with little to nothing in return. This country could do very well to start realizing technical jobs, skilled trades and many other things can get you as much if not FAR more than a degree.

Will my kids go to college? Probably, but I will sure as hell show them the other options available to them including the military, apprenticeships, and other means of learning and making a living.

I think there's probably a third way, too, and that's to get that college degree, but do it without taking on a lot of debt - however that may be. For some kids it may be scholarships or aid, and for others it might be commuting or getting an employer to help pay for it, for still others it might be military/GI Bill or ROTC, community colllege and pay as you go, whatever. Some way to get it without taking on massive debt. But I agree with your basic premise.

 

[Colleen27]

When I entered school, the cutoff was 5 by September 30th. Now, it's July 31st.

I'm pretty sure it was Dec. 1 or 31 when I was a kid. I had classmates who didn't turn 18 until well after they went off to college, and my brother was often the oldest in his class with a January birthday.

Now it is Sept. 1 so no students start at 4 any more, and only the handful of kids with birthdays after the start of the college school year but before the cutoff end up heading off to college at 17.

 

[rotlex]

I think there's probably a third way, too, and that's to get that college degree, but do it without taking on a lot of debt - however that may be. For some kids it may be scholarships or aid, and for others it might be commuting or getting an employer to help pay for it, for still others it might be military/GI Bill or ROTC, community colllege and pay as you go, whatever. Some way to get it without taking on massive debt. But I agree with your basic premise.

This is exactly what I meant. (Didn't mean no education past high school, or just working your way up through the ranks so to speak).


Scholarships, aid, all that can happen of course, but so can I high paying job by not getting a 4-8 year degree. I work in a very technical field, computer networking\VMware\Cisco certified. Many in my field have a degree; many more don't. Pay is based on skill and experience plus certifications etc. One of may best friends is an electrician, another a jet engine mechanic that retired from the military at the age of 38. My whole point really was you do not need a college degree the be successful. Yes, it helps, but there are ways of getting even that without falling into debt.

Unless your going to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer, there is no reason to not do your associates at a community college and go to a state or local school to finish. Really, in the real world where you went and what you spend really don't matter that much.

Myself, I went to technical school 20 years ago. Got my first job in the computer field and had my company pay for any further education. I spent roughly 10K out of my own pocket for a career that pays very well. (No bragging or boasting here but I'm probably doing better than my dentist friend).

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

This is part of the problem when the general public and students are led to believe the only way to be successful in life is to graduate high school, go to college, and then get a job. My wife and I are perfect examples as to why college, though it can be beneficial, is not necessary. We both went to technical and or trade type schools, earned certifications, learned a REAL skill, and frankly, had a very small debt, if any, in the end. We are married 30 years, have two children, vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. etc., all without every going to college.

College is force fed to youth today and these "institutions of higher learning" are nothing more than money making scams run by people who want nothing more than to give you bigger than mortgage sized debt with little to nothing in return. This country could do very well to start realizing technical jobs, skilled trades and many other things can get you as much if not FAR more than a degree.

Will my kids go to college? Probably, but I will sure as hell show them the other options available to them including the military, apprenticeships, and other means of learning and making a living.

I think we've already realized technical jobs, skilled trades, etc are important. But you're unlikely to get a job (and this has been the ways for a while) unless you get some sort of schooling. Trade school is a good option for many but just getting a high school diploma without having done any other schooling is hard these days. Jobs want knowledge even specialized knowledge. Now different trade schools have different programs and take different times but it's still doing something after high school.

Now one job that I know around me doesn't require schooling but rather experience is driving a commercial vehicle (typically where you would need a commercial license). Sister-in-law's husband worked for a gravel transport company and most recently as a tow truck driver. Both required his CDL for the specific work he was doing but he's running into issues not because of schooling (he only has his high school diploma) but because of lack of 2 years of experience (that's in large part because he quits or gets fired often at jobs----he has terrible like awful work ethic but that's besides the point). Anyways when he was a tow truck driver he had an important job working for both sides of the state line and on our side of the state line working for the state's DOT. You need tow trucks for simple things but also for accidents, etc. Before he worked on the gravel transport company he worked on repair diesel trucks (both in the shop and out on the road). At any of those jobs if he would stick with them he could make quite a decent living all without additional schooling (degree or certificate) and just work experience.

Also just so you know those who do go to college learn REAL skills too. The power that runs your house for instance could be from one of the power plants my husband helped design and track down parts for just as an example. Not to mention the aerodynamics of that plane you may take at some point in your life is a REAL skill learned by my husband with his degree. Even with my psychology degree simple experience isn't going to get you the background knowlege of how your brain works, interacts with the world including chemicals, etc.

Also funny how you describe your life: vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. as if those require a college degree in order to get them in the first place--because they don't--also strangely comes off .

 

[rotlex]

I think we've already realized technical jobs, skilled trades, etc are important. But you're unlikely to get a job (and this has been the ways for a while) unless you get some sort of schooling. Trade school is a good option for many but just getting a high school diploma without having done any other schooling is hard these days. Jobs want knowledge even specialized knowledge. Now different trade schools have different programs and take different times but it's still doing something after high school.

Now one job that I know around me doesn't require schooling but rather experience is driving a commercial vehicle (typically where you would need a commercial license). Sister-in-law's husband worked for a gravel transport company and most recently as a tow truck driver. Both required his CDL for the specific work he was doing but he's running into issues not because of schooling (he only has his high school diploma) but because of lack of 2 years of experience (that's in large part because he quits or gets fired often at jobs----he has terrible like awful work ethic but that's besides the point). Anyways when he was a tow truck driver he had an important job working for both sides of the state line and on our side of the state line working for the state's DOT. You need tow trucks for simple things but also for accidents, etc. Before he worked on the gravel transport company he worked on repair diesel trucks (both in the shop and out on the road). At any of those jobs if he would stick with them he could make quite a decent living all without additional schooling (degree or certificate) and just work experience.

Also just so you know those who do go to college learn REAL skills too. The power that runs your house for instance could be from one of the power plants my husband helped design and track down parts for just as an example. Not to mention the aerodynamics of that plane you may take at some point in your life is a REAL skill learned by my husband with his degree. Even with my psychology degree simple experience isn't going to get you the background knowlege of how your brain works, interacts with the world including chemicals, etc.

Also funny how you describe your life: vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. as if those require a college degree in order to get them in the first place--because they don't--also strangely comes off .

Didn't meant to quote your whole post but I do agree with you. I never did say college, or further education is not needed in today's world. It's just something I feel very strongly about; especially when I see kids coming out of school with debt more than my mortgage and living to pay off those loans.

I also never said going to college doesn't teach you real skills. If I came across that way, I didn't mean to. My biggest pet peeve is that today's kids are brainwashed from the beginning that getting a 4 year or more degree is the ONLY way too be successful in this world. It's not. Period.

Not sure why my mentioning houses and Disney comes off strangely? It's just conversation. My point was, AGAIN, you don't NEED a college degree, or to spend 100K+ on an education, to get them as MANY of today's youth are programmed to believe.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Didn't meant to quote your whole post but I do agree with you. I never did say college, or further education is not needed in today's world. It's just something I feel very strongly about; especially when I see kids coming out of school with debt more than my mortgage and living to pay off those loans.

I also never said going to college doesn't teach you real skills. If I came across that way, I didn't mean to. My biggest pet peeve is that today's kids are brainwashed from the beginning that getting a 4 year or more degree is the ONLY way too be successful in this world. It's not. Period.

Fair enough but I was responding to your "learned a REAL skill" comment. That came off like people who did other things like go to college didn't learn a real skill. Pretty sure your everyday life depends on people who went to college to get a degree. And there are other things that in our everyday life depends on people who went the trade school/technical school route.

Not sure why my mentioning houses and Disney comes off strangely? It's just conversation

What does going to Disney every year, having a big house and new cars have to do with anything? I mean kudos to you for having that but pretty sure the DIS has people on here who go to Disney every year, have a big house and new cars...and they did it probably with having a college degree while you did it with just technical school.

Heck my step-father-in-law is an independent insurance agent-no degree just insurance licenses and his business is worth 3million+. They have a nice house , a boat, a 5th wheel, a new truck, multiple cars, a time share, etc. They also go on vacation at least once a year (though since they got their 5th wheel they've going camping more). But he wouldn't go talking about that stuff saying "yeah and I go on vacation every year, I have a big house, new cars, etc" to prove you can do it without a college degree. His career is one that just doesn't rely on a college degree. My own father is also an insurance agent though he does have a degree just isn't needed for his job.

Point is it's not relevant when speaking about college degrees vs technical school vs no higher education. Besides where you live can determine how big of a house you can get with X amount of money, plus on new cars what kind of cars are you getting including lease vs own, etc (I mean I can get a Tesla now for mid-$30k) and going to Disney every year doesn't mean you spend thousands upon thousands of dollars each trip--and by virtue of going to Disney every year doesn't mean anything really.

My point was, AGAIN, you don't NEED a college degree, or to spend 100K+ on an education, to get them as MANY of today's youth are programmed to believe.

I don't know about the spending 100K part. I don't think today's youth is looking at just the most expensive option out there. Sure some do but not the 'many' that is floated around. Like I mentioned pages ago--people do look around for other options and for ways to lower their bill but that doesn't mean they can realistically go for dirt cheap. Perhaps the blanket statement of 'you don't need college' should be taken the same way as 'you need college'--both are inaccurate and accurate at the same time. All depends on what you want to do and there are many things out there as a society we value that need college for knowledge aspect and many things out there as a society we value that don't need college for knowledge aspect.

 

[okeydokey]

It's funny that most people think the way that THEY did it is the best way, and that is great that it all worked out for them. I have worked at both Community Colleges and large Universities, and recommended that my kids start at a four year institution. In my experience, the education at the four year Universities was vastly better than the Community Colleges. I have discussed with other people the benefits of their kids going to a 2 year college becuse I truly thought that would fit their circumstances better, but I knew what I wanted for my own.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

It's funny that most people think the way that THEY did it is the best way, and that is great that it all worked out for them. I have worked at both Community Colleges and large Universities, and recommended that my kids start at a four year institution. In my experience, the education at the four year Universities was vastly better than the Community Colleges. I have discussed with other people the benefits of their kids going to a 2 year college becuse I truly thought that would fit their circumstances better, but I knew what I wanted for my own.

Not me, I KNOW I did it wrong LOL

 

[mefordis]

Didn't meant to quote your whole post but I do agree with you. I never did say college, or further education is not needed in today's world. It's just something I feel very strongly about; especially when I see kids coming out of school with debt more than my mortgage and living to pay off those loans.

I also never said going to college doesn't teach you real skills. If I came across that way, I didn't mean to. My biggest pet peeve is that today's kids are brainwashed from the beginning that getting a 4 year or more degree is the ONLY way too be successful in this world. It's not. Period.

Not sure why my mentioning houses and Disney comes off strangely? It's just conversation. My point was, AGAIN, you don't NEED a college degree, or to spend 100K+ on an education, to get them as MANY of today's youth are programmed to believe.

I think he means you can earn a good living without having a college degree. i can attest to this as my dh who is a CTO will hire programmers who are qualified in the technologies required, and doesn't care if the candidate has a college degree. His vp of IT has not one year of college and is an exceptional programmer who makes an incredible salary.

Also, I am encouraging my kids to be entrepreneurs. My 9 year old already has a business and is making some good college money!

 

[Christine]

This is exactly what I meant. (Didn't mean no education past high school, or just working your way up through the ranks so to speak).


Scholarships, aid, all that can happen of course, but so can I high paying job by not getting a 4-8 year degree. I work in a very technical field, computer networking\VMware\Cisco certified. Many in my field have a degree; many more don't. Pay is based on skill and experience plus certifications etc. One of may best friends is an electrician, another a jet engine mechanic that retired from the military at the age of 38. My whole point really was you do not need a college degree the be successful. Yes, it helps, but there are ways of getting even that without falling into debt.

Unless your going to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer, there is no reason to not do your associates at a community college and go to a state or local school to finish. Really, in the real world where you went and what you spend really don't matter that much.

Myself, I went to technical school 20 years ago. Got my first job in the computer field and had my company pay for any further education. I spent roughly 10K out of my own pocket for a career that pays very well. (No bragging or boasting here but I'm probably doing better than my dentist friend).

I'd be curious to know what trade/certification type work your wife got 30 years ago. Is she also in the computer field?

 

[NHdisneylover]

It's funny that most people think the way that THEY did it is the best way, and that is great that it all worked out for them. I have worked at both Community Colleges and large Universities, and recommended that my kids start at a four year institution. In my experience, the education at the four year Universities was vastly better than the Community Colleges. I have discussed with other people the benefits of their kids going to a 2 year college becuse I truly thought that would fit their circumstances better, but I knew what I wanted for my own.

Hmmm---I haven't seen so much of that in my own life.

Personally, DH and I both got 4 year degrees. I loved university and would have a slew of PhDs if money had been no object and we had not been chasing DH's career around.

DH hated uni, but wanted to be an engineer so he suffered through.

My kids? I was much mroe concerned about their personalities and skills and goals and how that affectes what will be best for THEM than about what worked for me or DH.
My oldest in a junior studying Special Education at uni now. LOVES uni as much as I did. Gets tons out of it, is in all kinds of clubs, etc---has the grades to get scholarships and personality to work for housing (free room and board, plus stipend) and the ability to juggle it all---that means they'll graduate without debt and with a marketable (if not high paying) career in an area they enjoy.

My youngest? He hates being in a classroom and loves working with his hands. He suffered through highschool and is now in an apprenticeship program he loves. He actually got the highest score ever, in over 20 yers of it being given at this company, on a hands on test recently. He's learning to be a tooling engineer and my kid who used to be nearly impossible to get out of bed for school at 8 makes it to the factory by 6:45 every morning and is HAPPY about going. Not at all how DH and I went about it, but totally works for him, which is what matters.

There's no magic one size fits all path.

 

[Tinijocaro]

This is part of the problem when the general public and students are led to believe the only way to be successful in life is to graduate high school, go to college, and then get a job. My wife and I are perfect examples as to why college, though it can be beneficial, is not necessary. We both went to technical and or trade type schools, earned certifications, learned a REAL skill, and frankly, had a very small debt, if any, in the end. We are married 30 years, have two children, vacation at Disney every year, big house, new cars, etc. etc., all without every going to college.

College is force fed to youth today and these "institutions of higher learning" are nothing more than money making scams run by people who want nothing more than to give you bigger than mortgage sized debt with little to nothing in return. This country could do very well to start realizing technical jobs, skilled trades and many other things can get you as much if not FAR more than a degree.

Will my kids go to college? Probably, but I will sure as hell show them the other options available to them including the military, apprenticeships, and other means of learning and making a living.

While I agree with pretty much everything you said, I think it's incorrect to assume you learned REAL skills and kids who go to college don't. Do many kids who go to college major in useless things? Yes but certainly not the vast majority. I think you are smart to show your kids that there are many ways to have success, not just college.