Interesting-re FP new rules

[mjp12831]

I hear what you are saying. I am not one of those that believes the enforcement change came about because of late FP usage/abuse. The more logical conclusion to draw is that they are preparing for NexGen/Xpass or whatever it maybe called.

What I do take exception to is those that say that late FP usage had zero/negative effect on other guests. Sure, you can mathematically look at ride capacity and such and break down all the averages. But remember, they are averages. So on a grand scale over the course of the day, the average may show zero sum affect on the lines. However, that does not take into consideration the individual guests experience that is on the high end of that average. Hardcore users on this site keep insisting that there was ZERO negative effect on others, when that was not the case.

I think you just contridicted yourself within two paragraphs.

Also consider that many SB riders - especially earlier in the day - benefitted from late FP usage. If I returned late for my window and in the meantime you rode SB, you benefitted.

I get that you perceive that you were wronged when you see someone get in the FP line late while you're standing in the SB line, but that person would have ridden ahead of you anyways. I get this because my first impression was exactly what yours is, but I listened to what people said and thought it through and came to the conclusion that I was wrong - late FP use doesn't have any significant effect on wait time.

 

[UNCFanatik]

Right, and that wait time indicator (which is not the most accurate thing, and at the beginning and end of the days is mostly inaccurate) unfortunately sets your expectations - which is part of your perception.

Mathematics can't determine whether you make the choice to get in that line or not based on a wait time indicator. It can only tell you when you would have gotten on the attraction if you did.

I agree. I made the choice based on the current factors at hand. But the math that is being used can not account for individual instances that are variances in which people experience a negative experience because of late FP usage.

But the counter example that people keep forgetting is...you get in that line with a 20 minute wait time indicator, and a large group of people enter the Fastpass line but do so WELL WITHIN THEIR WINDOW, you have the same negative experience. Of course, you don't know whether they used them in their window or not since you are neither them or the CM checking them. However, you see the negative effect on your wait time, and therefore it is bad.

Very true. However, we were discussing the assertion that late FP usage has ZERO negative affect on other park goers. It is more than just guest's perceptions but actual instances because this does not happen in a vacuum and FP usage as you mentioned does have an affect on SB lines.

Also, as mentioned before, late FP usage has an affect on FP availability which can be a negative to late arriving guests.

 

[CarolineB]

I went to a ride this week with a fastpass and I was 5 minutes early. I was let in the ride but the CM told me to walk slowly because I might be sent back if I arrived at the next area where they take the fastpas from you. Now that's strict!

 

[mjp12831]

I would disagree. I have used this example before but if I come upon an attraction at 9pm lets say and it has a stated wait time of 20 minutes of SB. I decide this is an acceptable wait time and I get in line. 10 minutes into my wait, a large group with expired FPs with a 11am- 12pm window jump in the FP line. This increased my wait time and in that moment has a negative effect on me increasing my wait time. Now you may argue that the SB line wouldnt have been 20 minutes if this large group used their FPs on time and it the cumulative effect it would have had throughout the day. However, I wouldnt have gotten in that line with a longer stated wait time. For that instance, late FP usage, would have negatively effected me in an SB line. It is not just perception that is being affected.

In an effort to prove your argument, your example neglects to understand the other side.

If you have 20 late returnees come while you're in the SB line that does extend your wait time in that moment, so I understand that you may not have gotten in the SB line if you knew this was going to happen, however...

consider that there also are 20 people who had return time windows while you are in the SB line who hold their FP and return later in the day - this improves your wait time because the posted wait time assumes that they were going to return (assumes mixing in of FP people).

The net of these is likely (agreed not always) negligible during your SB wait time and is most definately ZERO when you consider the entire day (as I believe you yourself have acknowledged).

 

[doconeill]

Very true. However, we were discussing the assertion that late FP usage has ZERO negative affect on other park goers.

But again, I am NOT making that assertion. The correct assertion is that it balances out - for all the negative affects, there were positive effects earlier.

 

[UNCFanatik]

I think you just contridicted yourself within two paragraphs.

Also consider that many SB riders - especially earlier in the day - benefitted from late FP usage. If I returned late for my window and in the meantime you rode SB, you benefitted.

True, while some late SB riders experienced longer wait times because of late FP usage.

I get that you perceive that you were wronged when you see someone get in the FP line late while you're standing in the SB line, but that person would have ridden ahead of you anyways. I get this because my first impression was exactly what yours is, but I listened to what people said and thought it through and came to the conclusion that I was wrong - late FP use doesn't have any significant effect on wait time.

I dont look at it as a guest has been "wronged". Only that they have a negative effect of late FP usage. Again, it can and does have an effect on an individual's wait time at any given minute depending on the circumstances. While this may all be a wash in many of the mathematical formulas being used it still does not discount the individual for that moment had their wait time lengthened because of late FP usage.

And as I mentioned in a previous post to you. If a guest has a FP for an attraction from 11am-12pm, their place in line expires as 12pm and therefore they are no longer in front of me. If I show up at that attraction at 9pm, they technically do not have a place in line in front of me. AND as mentioned above, if a large group with the same FP window of 11-12 show up and jump in the FP line, it increases my wait in the SB line. Thus resulting in a negative experience for me.

I didnt contradict myself. I just dont agree with people who say that late FP usage had zero affect on other guests.

 

[UNCFanatik]

But again, I am NOT making that assertion. The correct assertion is that it balances out - for all the negative affects, there were positive effects earlier.

yes, it may balance out as a whole but may not on an individual level. the net waiting time for a guest on a given day may increase because of late FP usage. While another guest may experience a net decrease in wait time because of late FP usage.

 

[mjp12831]

I hope I can put into words what my puny brain is trying to compute ...

IMO, the whole FP system (with non-enforcement) worked fine on 75% of all attractions. FP and standby lines lines moved pretty quickly and things ran smoothly. Guests were in and out in a reasonable time frame.

The issue, however, was the remaining 25% of attractions where the FP system wasn't as effective. Unfortunately, these were the headliner attractions, such as Soarin', Toy Story Mania, Tower of Terror, etc. The demand for these attractions were so large that the FP's didn't work. Standby lines were horrible - up to two hours wait time. We were in a FP line for Soarin' and waited 45 minutes in a FP line. Another day, the kids waited 35-40 minutes in the FP line at ToT. Say what you want to about the standby lines, but you would expect FP lines to not be over 15 minutes - no matter how big the crowd is, or what holiday it is, or what special offers are going on at the time..

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Disney keep the FP system "as is" (with non-enforcement) for the attractions that the system worked on.

However, changes needed to be made on the headliner attractions to keep the times down for BOTH the FP and the standby lines. I don't know if enforcing return times is the answer or not. My instincts say that enforcement will help the FP lines move a little quicker to a small degree, but I'm not sure that will be any help to the standby lines.

Cutting down wait times for everyone needs to be Disney's goal.

I agree on TSM and Soarin'. TOT hasn't been that bad in a while that I've seen, but I'm going again soon for the first ultra-peak time in a while, so we'll see. RNRC is hit and miss - seems to be more due to maintenance issues than overall FP use.

What TSM and Soarin' have in common, however, is their load rates, which aren't high enough for their popularity. And part of that is due to the lack of other E-ticket attractions with similar target audiences. Neither is an extreme thrill ride and is aimed at all age ranges, so TOT, RNRC, Mission: SPACE, etc. are not really their peers in that regard. Test Track is a bit closer (and also is popular, but it's load rate is crippled by maintenance issues).

I think they had hopes that the new Star Tours would help with TSM, but the Star Tours capacity is huge in comparison.

At these popular but slow loaders, Fastpass I think works to their detriment overall, as it allows those who manage to get the FPs the opportunity to get a second ride in when otherwise a guest may only choose to ride once if they have to wait. That takes an extra slot away from someone else, and does make the standby line longer than if FP didn't exist. We have no idea how many do this, but I think it's probably more common that late FP users

Reposted these together because I thought they moved beyond the typical opinions which you see on this and other FP enforcement threads, and actually made me think. Thanks guys.

 

[Goofy's_Biggest_Fan]

I think you just contridicted yourself within two paragraphs.

Also consider that many SB riders - especially earlier in the day - benefitted from late FP usage. If I returned late for my window and in the meantime you rode SB, you benefitted.

I get that you perceive that you were wronged when you see someone get in the FP line late while you're standing in the SB line, but that person would have ridden ahead of you anyways. I get this because my first impression was exactly what yours is, but I listened to what people said and thought it through and came to the conclusion that I was wrong - late FP use doesn't have any significant effect on wait time.

I have always found it humorous that as high-tech and cutting edge as Disney is, their means of determining line times are pretty low-tech.

Almost all of us have had the experience of having a CM at the front of the attraction que, hang that lanyard with the time card, on the neck of your youngest child, with the instructions to give it to cast member when she or he gets through the line. Of course, your child thinks they have just been given the most important job in the world and all of Disney World depends on them completing that simple task!

I'm not sure how accurate that is. I can think of plenty of ways that could throw off the accuracy of the time.

 

[doconeill]

I have always found it humorous that as high-tech and cutting edge as Disney is, their means of determining line times are pretty low-tech.

Almost all of us have had the experience of having a CM at the front of the attraction que, hang that lanyard with the time card, on the neck of your youngest child, with the instructions to give it to cast member when she or he gets through the line. Of course, your child thinks they have just been given the most important job in the world and all of Disney World depends on them completing that simple task!

I'm not sure how accurate that is. I can think of plenty of ways that could throw off the accuracy of the time.

The biggest problem is that it measures how long it took someone to get through the line, who is now AT THE FRONT. It has little to do with how long someone who just entered the line in the back will wait, as there could have been an influx of people just before that person, or the opposite.

(and this goes to UNCFanatik's example as well...that clock could have said 20 minutes, but unbeknownst to you a large tour group entered the standby line 5 minutes before. Same thing happens - you get delayed, but you have no idea why - but if you see a large group go by in the Fastpass line, the thought it still "It's those darned late FP users!" )

Now, if I was Disney, I'd be applying all sorts of mathematics based on historical information, scheduled events (like parades), CMs not running the cards through like they should, etc. to try and make it more sensible. I don't know if they do or not.

There's an even lower-tech though. The old "your wait time is XX minutes from this point" fixed signs along the queue. Strangely, they could be more accurate, but only if the flow is steady, and FP, late or not, throws a wrench into that. It also depends on not bunching in line.

If you wanted to go higher tech, you'd need to know how many people are in the queue and track their speed through it at a finer grain that entrance/exit. Queue conspiracy theorists about Disney tracking your every movement...

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

It is interesting that Touring Plans and Ridemax can do a really good job of modeling a touring plan based on historical data as it pertains to crowd levels and how people move through the parks but Disney has a hard time getting accurate wait times on their attractions when the people are right in front of them.

 

[DisneyFive]

I hope I can put into words what my puny brain is trying to compute ...

The demand for these attractions were so large that the FP's didn't work. Standby lines were horrible - up to two hours wait time. We were in a FP line for Soarin' and waited 45 minutes in a FP line. Another day, the kids waited 35-40 minutes in the FP line at ToT. Say what you want to about the standby lines, but you would expect FP lines to not be over 15 minutes - no matter how big the crowd is, or what holiday it is, or what special offers are going on at the time..

I agree, what we don't know is if the enforcement will make any improvement to the types of scenarios above or if it is more of an issue with the attraction itself or how FP work in general on those attractions.

Dan

 

[buffettgirl]

I tend to disagree with the fact that the enforcement had ANYTHING to do with crowd control.

I think the enforcement has everything to do with money. Find where Disney was losing money from the old system and you'll find the reason for the new system. Were they finding that many people were leaving the parks during mid day ? The new system seems designed to keep people in the park longer each day; "oh fp is due at 3pm, lets just stay a little longer and use it." Where before you could say "Oh we'll just use this later". And the more time people spend in the park, the more money people spend.

I'm not saying this is THE reason, but I'm saying that I believe that the reason will always point to money.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

I tend to disagree with the fact that the enforcement had ANYTHING to do with crowd control.

I think there enforcement has everything to do with money. Find where Disney was losing money from the old system and you'll find the reason for the new system. Were they finding that many people were leaving the parks during mid day ? The new system seems designed to keep people in the park longer each day; "oh fp is due at 3pm, lets just stay a little longer and use it." Where before you could say "Oh we'll just use this later". And the more time people spend in the park, the more money people spend.

I'm not saying this is THE reason, but I'm saying that I believe that the reason will always point to money.

I agree that the reason has to do with money. By all evidence that money is in the form of the new X-Pass pay system. In whatever form they decide to roll it out, it would seem that more money will be going in Disney's pocket either through a straight pay-to-play system or as an perk for onsite guest.

 

[Goofy's_Biggest_Fan]

I tend to disagree with the fact that the enforcement had ANYTHING to do with crowd control.

I think there enforcement has everything to do with money. Find where Disney was losing money from the old system and you'll find the reason for the new system. Were they finding that many people were leaving the parks during mid day ? The new system seems designed to keep people in the park longer each day; "oh fp is due at 3pm, lets just stay a little longer and use it." Where before you could say "Oh we'll just use this later". And the more time people spend in the park, the more money people spend.

I'm not saying this is THE reason, but I'm saying that I believe that the reason will always point to money.

You are 100% correct; it's all about the money.

However, the fact remains that folks who are standing in line for 30-45 minutes per attraction are not spending money. Instead, they are getting cranky and tired, and are more likely to leave the park, and certainly not gong to browse shops and spend money.

It is in Disney's best interest to create proper crowd control through attractions, and that will increase the amount of money that is brought in.

 

[chartle]

I tend to disagree with the fact that the enforcement had ANYTHING to do with crowd control.

I think there enforcement has everything to do with money. .....

I agree that the reason has to do with money. .......

You are 100% correct; it's all about the money.

However, the fact remains that folks who are standing in line for 30-45 minutes per attraction are not spending money. Instead, they are getting cranky and tired, and are more likely to leave the park, and certainly not gong to browse shops and spend money.

It is in Disney's best interest to create proper crowd control through attractions, and that will increase the amount of money that is brought in.

As always, we all have to remember everything at WDW is all about the money. Disney is a business and its job is to make money and they do it very well by providing entertainment that people want to see and do.

 

[KellyNY]

But again, I am NOT making that assertion. The correct assertion is that it balances out - for all the negative affects, there were positive effects earlier.

It does not balance on individual level. People have different touring styles and you cannot absolutely be sure that I will benefit at any moment from someones no show.
So, while benefitting is questionable, negative affect is always there, therefore there is no balance on individual level.

Also do not forget that time at 11AM is not as valuable as time at 4PM. Afternoon and evening hours are busier by nature, more people go during this time and lines are naturally longer. It is Prime Time and getting a spot during this time is not the same as getting the spot during slow times.

It may be same ammount of time but you do not feel the need for that during the slower time but when you are in a long and annoying line, you do not need more time to be added to your wait.

Isn't it why collectors were using lines in a morning and collecting FP for later? so in other words, it is not even exchange, nor I was free to decide if I want it or not, it was forced upon me.

And while collector liked to feel more in control of his time, I liked same thing and did not like wait for 40 min in 20 min line for Soarin for example, esp. when my inconvenience is a pay for someones else better experience.

 

[doconeill]

It does not balance on individual level. People have different touring styles and you cannot absolutely be sure that I will benefit at any moment from someones no show.
So, while benefitting is questionable, negative affect is always there, therefore there is no balance on individual level.

Also do not forget that time at 11AM is not as valuable as time at 4PM. Afternoon and evening hours are busier by nature, more people go during this time and lines are naturally longer. It is Prime Time and getting a spot during this time is not the same as getting the spot during slow times.

It may be same ammount of time but you do not feel the need for that during the slower time but when you are in a long and annoying line, you do not need more time to be added to your wait.

Isn't it why collectors were using lines in a morning and collecting FP for later? so in other words, it is not even exchange, nor I was free to decide if I want it or not, it was forced upon me.

And while collector liked to feel more in control of his time, I liked same thing and did not like wait for 40 min in 20 min line for Soarin for example, esp. when my inconvenience is a pay for someones else better experience.

Please don't start this non-argument all over again. I have said several times in this thread that it is not and the "individual level" as you put it.

 

[Art 1]

Put ticket into machine, ticket comes out with ride time. Ride the ride during that time. I don't see what is so difficult about that.

I don't use fast passes that often but go to the parks often, once a week or so. It never dawned on us or did we ever think that folks would do otherwise.

It seems all so simple and easy.

 

[bytheblood]

There is also speculation that Disney is messing around with the number of FP distributed on a given day. So it may have been that there actually WAS/IS more FP. Not a result of the enforcement but due to tweaking.

That is what I was thinking.