Interesting-re FP new rules

[mom2rtk]

No doubt about that. Human nature I guess, don't give people too many options or they can't make a decision. Can you imagine the amount of energy it is going to take people to make X-pass reservations (assuming they are what we think they are)?

I just praise the heavens I won't be standing behind them at a computer kiosk while my OTHER fastpass expires!

 

[LaurenT]

I have no doubts that that is true. I acknowledged the evidence of the practice in my post.



Excuse me? I don't even know where this is coming from. You are being a little bit defensive here and I certainly didn't attack anyone for
using late fast passes.



So.. My "holier than thou rhetoric" made you post huh?

Exactly what did I say that was "holier than thou" because I'm not seeing it. I offered no value judgements to anyone here. I have issues with the way the policy was implemented, yes, but not the
people who made use of the policy.

*shrug*

Holier than thou wasn't directed at you.
It was meant for all the posters who over and over again have to tell everyone that the enforcement doesn't bother then because they are "rule followers"... Which implies that anyone who used the FP late is a cheater.

 

[AppleSister1]

The increase in number of FP issued simply results in a decrease in the number of SB riders in a particular day - I don't believe it would necessarily make waits shorter, and don't understand how it would need to be a byproduct of the window enforcement even if it has been simultaneous with that change.

I feared that many people had been using their FP after the printed window, and that by forcing them to use the FP within the window, the FP lines would be longer. It seems that might not be the case.

Reading through here, it seems most people who even knew they could use them late, were not doing that in great numbers. Also it seems that perhaps less people are using FP (or using fewer FPs) because they find the window inconvient.

I didn't say anything about increase in FP issued.

I realize for lots of people this is a painful change in their touring style. It seems our personal touring style may not be affected, that's all.

 

[reiella]

You can throw out all the numbers you want, it doesn't make them realistic.

As I said, of 100% people who KNEW they could use them late, less than a quarter of them used them significantly late.

If for some bizarre reason 90% of guests used them late, well, then you still need to qualify, how late?

If everyone used them 5 minutes late, then it really doesn't matter. It's just shifted everything by 5 minutes. And the standby line gets a 5 minute bonus to boot...

If 90% of guests tried to use them at the end of the day? That's called a "self-limiting problem". They would become unusable, so then no one would use them that way, and therefore it's not a problem again.

The problem being burst period impacts to the line. You can see some of the burst periods with the complaints about enforcement actually.

The problem isn't that everyone more or less uniformly was late so many minutes, it's that people decided they wanted to redeem their FP at the same time, causing a burst problem. Which is something that has to be accounted for if they want the fastpass queue to be reasonable [and seem like it's a worthwhile service].

If you can reduce the drift into the burst periods, you can increase the general availability. As I said, normalizing the distribution .

 

[kaligal]

Holier than thou wasn't directed at you.
It was meant for all the posters who over and over again have to tell everyone that the enforcement doesn't bother then because they are "rule followers"... Which implies that anyone who used the FP late is a cheater.

And some of them lie, lol.

If you watch closely, you will see that some of these folks who state that Disney saying you can do it doesn't make it okay if the printed material says otherwise...will show up early and enter the MK before 7:00 for hard ticket events.

They will also enter parks before the posted opening time if someone allows them to do it.

The list goes on and on.

They are just selective (though vocal) about following some printed info.

 

[debbibee]

would it matter if you returned during the beginning of your time period or towards the end. or does that have no bearing because your end period is someone else's beginning

 

[doconeill]

would it matter if you returned during the beginning of your time period or towards the end. or does that have no bearing because your end period is someone else's beginning

Are you wondering if it is better or worse to use it at the beginning or end of your window? It shouldn't actually matter, because, as you say, the end of your window is the beginning of someone elses.

A whole lot of people could show up at once and clog the FP line, and still be perfectly well within their window. So the idea of enforcement preventing "bursts" is limited. They still happen.

Overall, it all averages out, however.

 

[seashoreCM]

Even though DIS members are a very small percentage of total Disney goers, Disney monitors The DIS and, after seeing "you can use your FASTPASS late" flying back and forth several times a day, decided to nip it in the bud.

Another way of describing FASTPASS as it debuted and also post-March-7, consider this: Let's say that on the day you are there the typical wait time showing on the respective sign outside is 65 minutes for Peter Pan, 90 minutes for Soarin; and 110 minutes for Toy Story Mania. If you suddenly heard that at some specific time, randomly picked and later that day, the wait time would be 10 minutes just for you, then would you criss cross the park to get to the ride at that future time?

 

[doconeill]

Even though DIS members are a very small percentage of total Disney goers, Disney monitors The DIS and, after seeing "you can use your FASTPASS late" flying back and forth several times a day, decided to nip it in the bud.

You say that as if it is fact. Fact is, those threads have been going around the DIS for YEARS, and they didn't do anything about it until now. So either they reached some breaking point, for which I've never seen any evidence, or they are changing it for other reasons - and there is a lot of evidence for that.

Another way of describing FASTPASS as it debuted and also post-March-7, consider this: Let's say that on the day you are there the typical wait time showing on the respective sign outside is 65 minutes for Peter Pan, 90 minutes for Soarin; and 110 minutes for Toy Story Mania. If you suddenly heard that at some time in the future the wait time would be 15 minutes just for you, then would you criss cross the park to get to the ride at that future time?

I'm actually not sure at all what your point is here...I don't think that question relates at all to the enforcement as it doesn't really change.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

This is what bugs me most on these threads. The people who wish to berate those that took advantage of the late FP policy throw out reasons for enforcement for which there is no evidence while there is plenty of evidence to suggest the reason is due to upcoming changes. They fail to see the irony when they posit the reason is due to widespread abuse while saying that it is unfair because not enough people knew about it. They reason that huge surges at the FP line are due to late FP use apparently not realizing, or ignoring, that a large number of FP's are within their windows at any given time (with the exception of the very beginning and end of the FP day). Fine, I get it, you feel that as a person who followed the rules as you saw them you were wronged, but at least admit that there is a possibility that late FP use really didn't have a significantly negative effect on the system as a whole.

Whew! Let me just put this soapbox away now.

 

[UNCFanatik]

This is what bugs me most on these threads. The people who wish to berate those that took advantage of the late FP policy throw out reasons for enforcement for which there is no evidence while there is plenty of evidence to suggest the reason is due to upcoming changes. They fail to see the irony when they posit the reason is due to widespread abuse while saying that it is unfair because not enough people knew about it. They reason that huge surges at the FP line are due to late FP use apparently not realizing, or ignoring, that a large number of FP's are within their windows at any given time (with the exception of the very beginning and end of the FP day). Fine, I get it, you feel that as a person who followed the rules as you saw them you were wronged, but at least admit that there is a possibility that late FP use really didn't have a significantly negative effect on the system as a whole.

Whew! Let me just put this soapbox away now.

I hear what you are saying. I am not one of those that believes the enforcement change came about because of late FP usage/abuse. The more logical conclusion to draw is that they are preparing for NexGen/Xpass or whatever it maybe called.

What I do take exception to is those that say that late FP usage had zero/negative effect on other guests. Sure, you can mathematically look at ride capacity and such and break down all the averages. But remember, they are averages. So on a grand scale over the course of the day, the average may show zero sum affect on the lines. However, that does not take into consideration the individual guests experience that is on the high end of that average. Hardcore users on this site keep insisting that there was ZERO negative effect on others, when that was not the case.

 

[bobbiwoz]

I never understood the complaining about Fastpass enforcement times. The times are there on the ticket for a reason.

If you had a 9AM doctor's appointment but just bopped in around 12PM you can't expect to just be taken right away.

I love this!

 

[CuteAsMinnie]

so...dare I say it....is it possible the new rule has started redistributing crowds and made waits shorter? That would rock!

I am inclined to think this is was Disney's intent for FP all along. As the years went by and crowds declined (somewhat) due to the economy, FP lines and subsequently the wait times grew longer. For whatever reason the FP seems to be working the way it was originally intended is fabulous (IMHO)

 

[doconeill]

I hear what you are saying. I am not one of those that believes the enforcement change came about because of late FP usage/abuse. The more logical conclusion to draw is that they are preparing for NexGen/Xpass or whatever it maybe called.

What I do take exception to is those that say that late FP usage had zero/negative effect on other guests. Sure, you can mathematically look at ride capacity and such and break down all the averages. But remember, they are averages. So on a grand scale over the course of the day, the average may show zero sum affect on the lines. However, that does not take into consideration the individual guests experience that is on the high end of that average. Hardcore users on this site keep insisting that there was ZERO negative effect on others, when that was not the case.

I have not claimed that there was zero negative affect on the individual users, at least in their perception. The only people, however, it truly affected negatively were other people in the Fastpass line, and then only for a short time.

People in the standby line benefited...however, their perception rarely picks up on that benefit because they can't see it from inside. They can, however, perceive a negative impact, even if that negative impact is false, because they see a bunch of people going ahead of them - people who would have been ahead of them either way. And admittedly, people's perceptions are what (usually) counts.

 

[doconeill]

I am inclined to think this is was Disney's intent for FP all along. As the years went by and crowds declined (somewhat) due to the economy, FP lines and subsequently the wait times grew longer. For whatever reason the FP seems to be working the way it was originally intended is fabulous (IMHO)

I'm actually curious about this statement...if the crowds declined, how did the lines get longer?

 

[reiella]

I hear what you are saying. I am not one of those that believes the enforcement change came about because of late FP usage/abuse. The more logical conclusion to draw is that they are preparing for NexGen/Xpass or whatever it maybe called.

What I do take exception to is those that say that late FP usage had zero/negative effect on other guests. Sure, you can mathematically look at ride capacity and such and break down all the averages. But remember, they are averages. So on a grand scale over the course of the day, the average may show zero sum affect on the lines. However, that does not take into consideration the individual guests experience that is on the high end of that average. Hardcore users on this site keep insisting that there was ZERO negative effect on others, when that was not the case.

To be fair, most that I see are generally claiming a negligible effect. Which is a perspective issue, or ultimately, something only Disney has the hard numbers to support/manipulate.

By the same token, it's really just consumer speculation as to the difference in FP distribution and utilization.

It is the sort of change I see being necessary if Disney wanted to heavily promote the Fastpass system [or as appears in this case, promote a successor system]. And as Disney does want to make it easier for us guests to have time to spend our money in their shops . There is a very fair point that the current windows may impact their table-service utilization. And while I'd suggest that the same argument that the previous FP window-no-enforcement policy had negligible impact on FP queues also suggests a negligible impact on TS usage, there is the reality that the population of "folks riding Splash Mountain" is significantly greater than "folks eating at table service in Magic Kingdom", so it's a bit harder to pin down . But there are two 'direct' solutions to the TS issue, either expand the window [or grace period], or get the restaurants seating time far closer to the ADR time.

 

[Goofy's_Biggest_Fan]

I hope I can put into words what my puny brain is trying to compute ...

IMO, the whole FP system (with non-enforcement) worked fine on 75% of all attractions. FP and standby lines lines moved pretty quickly and things ran smoothly. Guests were in and out in a reasonable time frame.

The issue, however, was the remaining 25% of attractions where the FP system wasn't as effective. Unfortunately, these were the headliner attractions, such as Soarin', Toy Story Mania, Tower of Terror, etc. The demand for these attractions were so large that the FP's didn't work. Standby lines were horrible - up to two hours wait time. We were in a FP line for Soarin' and waited 45 minutes in a FP line. Another day, the kids waited 35-40 minutes in the FP line at ToT. Say what you want to about the standby lines, but you would expect FP lines to not be over 15 minutes - no matter how big the crowd is, or what holiday it is, or what special offers are going on at the time..

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Disney keep the FP system "as is" (with non-enforcement) for the attractions that the system worked on.

However, changes needed to be made on the headliner attractions to keep the times down for BOTH the FP and the standby lines. I don't know if enforcing return times is the answer or not. My instincts say that enforcement will help the FP lines move a little quicker to a small degree, but I'm not sure that will be any help to the standby lines.

Cutting down wait times for everyone needs to be Disney's goal.

 

[doconeill]

I hope I can put into words what my puny brain is trying to compute ...

IMO, the whole FP system (with non-enforcement) worked fine on 75% of all attractions. FP and standby lines lines moved pretty quickly and things ran smoothly. Guests were in and out in a reasonable time frame.

The issue, however, was the remaining 25% of attractions where the FP system wasn't as effective. Unfortunately, these were the headliner attractions, such as Soarin', Toy Story Mania, Tower of Terror, etc. The demand for these attractions were so large that the FP's didn't work. Standby lines were horrible - up to two hours wait time. We were in a FP line for Soarin' and waited 45 minutes in a FP line. Another day, the kids waited 35-40 minutes in the FP line at ToT. Say what you want to about the standby lines, but you would expect FP lines to not be over 15 minutes - no matter how big the crowd is, or what holiday it is, or what special offers are going on at the time..

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Disney keep the FP system "as is" (with non-enforcement) for the attractions that the system worked on.

However, changes needed to be made on the headliner attractions to keep the times down for BOTH the FP and the standby lines. I don't know if enforcing return times is the answer or not. My instincts say that enforcement will help the FP lines move a little quicker to a small degree, but I'm not sure that will be any help to the standby lines.

Cutting down wait times for everyone needs to be Disney's goal.

I agree on TSM and Soarin'. TOT hasn't been that bad in a while that I've seen, but I'm going again soon for the first ultra-peak time in a while, so we'll see. RNRC is hit and miss - seems to be more due to maintenance issues than overall FP use.

What TSM and Soarin' have in common, however, is their load rates, which aren't high enough for their popularity. And part of that is due to the lack of other E-ticket attractions with similar target audiences. Neither is an extreme thrill ride and is aimed at all age ranges, so TOT, RNRC, Mission: SPACE, etc. are not really their peers in that regard. Test Track is a bit closer (and also is popular, but it's load rate is crippled by maintenance issues).

I think they had hopes that the new Star Tours would help with TSM, but the Star Tours capacity is huge in comparison.

At these popular but slow loaders, Fastpass I think works to their detriment overall, as it allows those who manage to get the FPs the opportunity to get a second ride in when otherwise a guest may only choose to ride once if they have to wait. That takes an extra slot away from someone else, and does make the standby line longer than if FP didn't exist. We have no idea how many do this, but I think it's probably more common that late FP users

 

[UNCFanatik]

I have not claimed that there was zero negative affect on the individual users, at least in their perception. The only people, however, it truly affected negatively were other people in the Fastpass line, and then only for a short time.

People in the standby line benefited...however, their perception rarely picks up on that benefit because they can't see it from inside. They can, however, perceive a negative impact, even if that negative impact is false, because they see a bunch of people going ahead of them - people who would have been ahead of them either way. And admittedly, people's perceptions are what (usually) counts.

I would disagree. I have used this example before but if I come upon an attraction at 9pm lets say and it has a stated wait time of 20 minutes of SB. I decide this is an acceptable wait time and I get in line. 10 minutes into my wait, a large group with expired FPs with a 11am- 12pm window jump in the FP line. This increased my wait time and in that moment has a negative effect on me increasing my wait time. Now you may argue that the SB line wouldnt have been 20 minutes if this large group used their FPs on time and it the cumulative effect it would have had throughout the day. However, I wouldnt have gotten in that line with a longer stated wait time. For that instance, late FP usage, would have negatively effected me in an SB line. It is not just perception that is being affected.

 

[doconeill]

I would disagree. I have used this example before but if I come upon an attraction at 9pm lets say and it has a stated wait time of 20 minutes of SB. I decide this is an acceptable wait time and I get in line. 10 minutes into my wait, a large group with expired FPs with a 11am- 12pm window jump in the FP line. This increased my wait time and in that moment has a negative effect on me increasing my wait time. Now you may argue that the SB line wouldnt have been 20 minutes if this large group used their FPs on time and it the cumulative effect it would have had throughout the day. However, I wouldnt have gotten in that line with a longer stated wait time. For that instance, late FP usage, would have negatively effected me in an SB line. It is not just perception that is being affected.

Right, and that wait time indicator (which is not the most accurate thing, and at the beginning and end of the days is mostly inaccurate) unfortunately sets your expectations - which is part of your perception.

Mathematics can't determine whether you make the choice to get in that line or not based on a wait time indicator. It can only tell you when you would have gotten on the attraction if you did.

But the counter example that people keep forgetting is...you get in that line with a 20 minute wait time indicator, and a large group of people enter the Fastpass line but do so WELL WITHIN THEIR WINDOW, you have the same negative experience. Of course, you don't know whether they used them in their window or not since you are neither them or the CM checking them. However, you see the negative effect on your wait time, and therefore it is bad.