Independent Audit Blasts Disney For Pulling ‘Bait And Switch’ On Florida: ‘A Mousetrap’

[TippyThomas]

Here's that same guy as before, this time going through some of the evidence submitted with the report. I know, some of you will hate his humorous and irreverent spin on things, but honestly he's starting to grow on me. Legal stuff is normally pretty boring, but he manages to make it entertaining. As some of you already know, he's not pre-Disney, so you may not like his take on things. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not competent to say how accurate his opinions are: anyway, eventually the courts will probably have to decide this.

Looks pretty independent and unbiased.


/s

 

[Genie+]

Here's that same guy as before, this time going through some of the evidence submitted with the report. I know, some of you will hate his humorous and irreverent spin on things, but honestly he's starting to grow on me. Legal stuff is normally pretty boring, but he manages to make it entertaining. As some of you already know, he's not pre-Disney, so you may not like his take on things. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not competent to say how accurate his opinions are: anyway, eventually the courts will probably have to decide this.

This guy was picked apart from his first RCID content. Many legal details wrong from the start. Turned me off no matter how entertaining he may be because disingenuous irks me. Don’t present as something and not be that.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

It's a tale as old as time. I look forward to reading the same tired back and forth with him on the next thread about RCID.

Well, you know, if people would show me instead of tell me, maybe we’d both get somewhere.

 

[bcla]

It's a tale as old as time. I look forward to reading the same tired back and forth with him on the next thread about RCID.

It's clear that fairness isn't an issue since he only faults Disney for this.

If anyone thinks this is wrong, then there are absolutely no clean hands.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/re...ard-omits-gifts-top-florida-politi-rcna128506​

“This is not a secret,” said former Republican state Sen. Jeff Brandes. “There are no secrets, really, in Tallahassee, as it relates to one of your largest economic engines facilitating events on their properties.”​

​

When it comes to influence in the statehouse, Brandes said, “Disney is the mouse that roars.”​

*******​

But since 2014, state records show the company has donated more than $43 million worth of cash and in-kind considerations to state-level politicians and political committees — plus millions more spent on lobbying.​

​

“This is not something that I think should shock or amaze people,” Brandes said, adding the influence can help large corporations ensure a seat at the table on important issues.​

​

“If you look around the state of Florida, there are a variety of different organizations offering [in-kind donations],” Brandes continued. “It’s not like Universal doesn’t do the same thing, or the Florida Restaurant & Lodging Association through their resorts or properties...[because] the political parties are asking for these favors.”​

​

According to state election records, Universal Studios and affiliated subsidiaries provided $1.8 million worth of in-kind donations to political parties and candidates since 2014, via donated lodging, tickets, food/beverage, and other entertainment, the records show.​

 

[bcla]

Well, you know, if people would show me instead of tell me, maybe we’d both get somewhere.

We have shown you, but you refuse to believe that which doesn't comport with your preconceived notions. It was well known that RCID paid for its own fire department rather than a city or county fire department, although I suppose Bay Lake or Lake Buena Vista could have had city (or consolidated) fire department paid for with the city ad valorem taxes that Disney pays. There's been talk about that on this forum for years.

 

[Kwami]

Well, you know, if people would show me instead of tell me, maybe we’d both get somewhere.

There's no point. You ignore any evidence that doesn't further your preconceived views on everything. You also rarely, if ever, provide any evidence for your ridiculous claims.

 

[Smugpugmug]

It's clear that fairness isn't an issue since he only faults Disney for this.

If anyone thinks this is wrong, then there are absolutely no clean hands.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/re...ard-omits-gifts-top-florida-politi-rcna128506​

“This is not a secret,” said former Republican state Sen. Jeff Brandes. “There are no secrets, really, in Tallahassee, as it relates to one of your largest economic engines facilitating events on their properties.”​

​

When it comes to influence in the statehouse, Brandes said, “Disney is the mouse that roars.”​

*******​

But since 2014, state records show the company has donated more than $43 million worth of cash and in-kind considerations to state-level politicians and political committees — plus millions more spent on lobbying.​

​

“This is not something that I think should shock or amaze people,” Brandes said, adding the influence can help large corporations ensure a seat at the table on important issues.​

​

“If you look around the state of Florida, there are a variety of different organizations offering [in-kind donations],” Brandes continued. “It’s not like Universal doesn’t do the same thing, or the Florida Restaurant & Lodging Association through their resorts or properties...[because] the political parties are asking for these favors.”​

​

According to state election records, Universal Studios and affiliated subsidiaries provided $1.8 million worth of in-kind donations to political parties and candidates since 2014, via donated lodging, tickets, food/beverage, and other entertainment, the records show.​

Oh, I'm aware. It's not worth engaging with bad faith arguments (to which I feel like the OP of this thread is veering into based solely on their responses to other posters).

 

[Douglas Dubh]

There's no point. You ignore any evidence that doesn't further your preconceived views on everything. You also rarely, if ever, provide any evidence for your ridiculous claims.

How would you know? You never present me any.

 

[Kwami]

Oh, I'm aware. It's not worth engaging with bad faith arguments (to which I feel like the OP of this thread is veering into based solely on their responses to other posters).

Absolutely. The OP posted a very biased "report" from a very biased website and then backed it up with very biased YouTube videos. When anyone tried to push back, suddenly the OP was no longer interested because there are things in life other than politics. Or something nonsensical like that.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

We have shown you, but you refuse to believe that which doesn't comport with your preconceived notions. It was well known that RCID paid for its own fire department rather than a city or county fire department, although I suppose Bay Lake or Lake Buena Vista could have had city (or consolidated) fire department paid for with the city ad valorem taxes that Disney pays. There's been talk about that on this forum for years.

Sure, and I’ve never expressed any doubt about that. But does Disney actually pay more taxes than they would if RCID not exist?

Earlier I was accused of harboring conflicting beliefs, but it seems like many arguing here do as well. Many claim that the State punished Disney by taking away RCID but how can that be true if Disney pays for all of RCID plus everything they’d pay to Orange and Osceola counties without it? If RCID didn’t give Disney some advantage, why is it such a big deal if RCID goes away?

 

[Sykes]

Many claim that the State punished Disney by taking away RCID but how can that be true if Disney pays for all of RCID plus everything they’d pay to Orange and Osceola counties without it? If RCID didn’t give Disney some advantage, why is it such a big deal if RCID goes away?

Sigh. At some point it just becomes easier to re-post from earlier in the thread.

RCID existed almost entirely so that Disney had some control over its own infrastructure needs (which the existing local governments weren't equipped to support when it was formed anyway), so they could use municipal bonds to fund that infrastructure on favorable financial terms, and to streamline zoning, permitting, and code enforcement.

All things that make perfect sense when a single entity is substantially in control of the entire district.

Edited to add: If you want to understand what is really important to Disney then it's instructive to read the controversial 30-year development agreement that the previous RCID board entered into as their final act before dissolution. 0% of it was about taxation or payments.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

At some point it just becomes easier to re-post from earlier in the thread.

Again repeating a claim doesn’t make it more true.

 

[Sykes]

Again repeating a claim doesn’t make it more true.

You failed to present a novel question that hasn't already been answered ad nauseam, so it warrants the same response. There are no great mysteries here--RCID operated publicly and in full view of the world in everything they did and the answers you seek are trivially easy to find. We can't help you if you just want to stick your head in the mud.

 

[bcla]

Sure, and I’ve never expressed any doubt about that. But does Disney actually pay more taxes than they would if RCID not exist?

Earlier I was accused of harboring conflicting beliefs, but it seems like many arguing here do as well. Many claim that the State punished Disney by taking away RCID but how can that be true if Disney pays for all of RCID plus everything they’d pay to Orange and Osceola counties without it? If RCID didn’t give Disney some advantage, why is it such a big deal if RCID goes away?

Yes they do pay more in taxes. And if the district went away, the millage rate in Orange County would inevitably go up while Disney

Disney was happy with the arrangement because they got a superior level of governmental services to provide for the benefit of their customers. It's not that hard to understand. I'd rather deal with a smaller governmental entity that would be extremely responsive to my needs. And they as a taxpayer could select the board like most other special districts can in Florida. But now all that power to select the board is consolidated in the Governor's hands, and it's clear that they're not operating in any way other than what would please the Governor. The report is less an audit than a hit piece. No independent auditor would ever use such inflammatory language.

Here's a 2020 tax bill for that property I posted earlier - 1534 W Buena Vista Dr (parcel # 35-24-27-0000-00-008). This is public information available from the Orange County Property Appraiser. As far as I know, there are no public schools on the WDW nor Reedy Creek (I will continue to use that name) properties nor any libraries. If the special district fully dissolves, where do you think the services come from? That 1.14% in property taxes goes away and they county has to come up with that budget somewhere else, which would be to increase the general county millage rate. But they could only do that across all property taxes in the county. But yeah if that happened, Disney's property taxes would clearly go down overall.

https://ocpaweb.ocpafl.org/parcelsearch

Taxing Authority	Assd Value	Exemption	Tax Value	Millage Rate	%	Taxes	Tax Breakdown
Reedy Creek Impr.	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	11.1429		$692,329.50	45%
Public Schools: By State Law (Rle)	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	3.6090		$224,234.02	15%
Public Schools: By Local Board	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	3.2480		$201,804.39	13%
General County	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	4.4347		$275,536.30	18%
City Of Bay Lake	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	1.6237		$100,883.56	7%
Library - Operating Budget	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	0.3748		$23,287.04	2%
South Florida Water Management District	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	0.1103		$6,853.15	0%
South Florida Wmd Okeechobee Basin	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	0.1192		$7,406.12	0%
South Florida Wmd Everglades Const	$62,131,895	$0	$62,131,895	0.0380		$2,361.01	0%
Totals				24.7006		$1,534,695.07

 

[bcla]

You failed to present a novel question that hasn't already been answered ad nauseam, so it warrants the same response. There are no great mysteries here--RCID operated publicly and in full view of the world in everything they did and the answers you seek are trivially easy to find. We can't help you if you just want to stick your head in the mud.

The new district will probably get an exemption to the Florida Sunshine law. I heard they might be in violation of it already with one of the board members having her image blurred out during the public broadcast of board meetings.

 

[john7994]

The new district will probably get an exemption to the Florida Sunshine law. I heard they might be in violation of it already with one of the board members having her image blurred out during the public broadcast of board meetings.

Was it Bad Girl Bridget?

 

[Sweettears]

Of course it's definitive that Disney is pretty much the only taxpayer for Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista and that district funds pay for police and fire services that aren't paid for with any other city or county taxes other than the special district. It's not that hard to figure out. This has been discussed on DISBoards for years even before the current controversy.

That was the whole point of this district. They were an omnibus governmental entity that was paid for with high tax rates (up to a statutory 3% of property value). And on top of that the same taxpayer was still on the hook for county taxes. It was a win-win for the county, that wasn't necessarily prepared to provide the services, on top of this one big taxpayer just giving the county money where they expected very little in return for the ability of have this special government provide what they needed.

The other taxpayers of Orange and Osceola Counties certainly wouldn't find it equitable to treat Disney the same, because they know how much of a benefit it is to them that Disney is paying for the special district through high taxes while still paying county property taxes.

Yep Would seem obvious to most, Nice summation

 

[Sweettears]

You failed to present a novel question that hasn't already been answered ad nauseam, so it warrants the same response. There are no great mysteries here--RCID operated publicly and in full view of the world in everything they did and the answers you seek are trivially easy to find. We can't help you if you just want to stick your head in the mud.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

seek are trivially easy to find.

Well, I’ve tried googling and can’t find a definitive source. There’s no doubt that Disney pays taxes; I just can’t find an independent source that shows how much, if any, Disney saves due to the district. I’ll go back and reread BCLA’s earlier posts and see if I can figure those numbers out.

 

[bcla]

Well, I’ve tried googling and can’t find a definitive source. There’s no doubt that Disney pays taxes; I just can’t find an independent source that shows how much, if any, Disney saves due to the district. I’ll go back and reread BCLA’s earlier posts and see if I can figure those numbers out.

They don't save money due to the district. It's really that simple. I'll give you another example that can be compared to one Universal pays in the city of Orlando. The owner of this property is Universal Studios Florida, and the property tax rate is about 1.8%, compared to the 2.4% that Disney was paying for a WDW property in Bay Lake.

It's 5858 Universal Studios Plz (parcel # 13-23-28-8833-00-060), which is listed as an industrial warehouse with an assessed value of $29,659,063. The line items are the same except that Universal is paying for the City of Orlando (6.6500 mills), while Disney is paying for the City of Bay Lake (1.6237 mills) and Reedy Creek Improvement District (11.1429). And it seems really bizarre to me as a California property tax payer under Proposition 13 where ad valorem property taxes only go to the county and any portion of the revenue goes to the cities through the county. But I digress.

Taxing Authority	Assd Value	Exemption	Tax Value	Millage Rate	%	Taxes	Tax Breakdown
Public Schools: By State Law (Rle)	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	3.6090		$107,039.56	19%
Public Schools: By Local Board	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	3.2480		$96,332.63	17%
General County	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	4.4347		$131,529.05	24%
City Of Orlando	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	6.6500		$197,232.77	36%
Library - Operating Budget	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	0.3748		$11,116.22	2%
South Florida Water Management District	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	0.1103		$3,271.39	1%
South Florida Wmd Okeechobee Basin	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	0.1192		$3,535.36	1%
South Florida Wmd Everglades Const	$29,659,063	$0	$29,659,063	0.0380		$1,127.04	0%
Totals				18.5840		$551,184.03