Incedent at DTD

[missbrooke06]

And we know when she passed out by.... ?

Because being left naked in bushes doesn't signal consciousness.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

Because being left naked in bushes doesn't signal consciousness.

I think Sam is saying we don't know WHEN she passes out. I'm sure the guy didn't stay to cuddle after though so I assume sometime during

 

[Ambear]

And we know when she passed out by.... ?

I mean... do you think after he finished up that she must have (conveniently for him) only passed out in that period of time and then he decided to try to put her clothes on but couldn't because she was out?

 

[larryz]

Two points: It's never a good idea to get so wasted that you'll wind up in a situation you can't control, or at least opt out of. Have a plan; use the buddy system.

And it's never a good idea to take advantage of anyone incapable of making a rational decision, no matter what the cause.

That said, why people get so blotto they can't remember anything is a psychological mystery... you can ascribe multiple motivations to their drunkenness. But when in doubt, refer to points one and two above.

 

[sam_gordon]

I mean... do you think after he finished up that she must have (conveniently for him) only passed out in that period of time and then he decided to try to put her clothes on but couldn't because she was out?

I think it is possible, or at least once he was past "the point of no return" if that makes sense.

I'm going to ask this... Based on what has been released so far, if you were on a jury, would you convict the guy of rape?

I'm not saying she wasn't raped. But I don't think there's enough evidence yet to say she was.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I think in light of the information out now, it is hard to see this particular case as anythign other than rape (or at least some form of sexual assault). The video showing her unable to walk out of the cub with him helping to hold her up shows that he did have an advantage: she was so impaired she could not walk without assistance whereas he not only could walk,he could help her while he was at it. I also think the video showing him going up to her so quickly after her friends left her indicates that he was likely waiting and watching for his chance.
I can't tell from what is written if she stopped him on the way to the car to say "I can't wait, let's just do it here" or to say she was having second thoughts--if the latter that is even more clear and worse. It's a good thing that there was video to help both with identifying him and showing that he was much more in control of his faculties than she was of hers.

In the more general discussion:

Someone brought up the college students who raped unconscious women. IN that case, being drunk does not absolve them, anymore than it would absolve them of a DUI--they still had a clear and obvious advantage. Being too drunk to notice that does not excuse it---if you do not want to be held responsible for stupid things you do while drunk, then do not get that drunk.

Someone posted stats about how few rapists ever see jail time, etc. That is horrible. It really is.
Part of the problem is the culture that OKs this--men brag and their friends congratulate them, or at least keep quiet instead of reporting it; women are told they are to blame for wearing short skirts, or being out at night, or drinking; those convicted of rape are given a "slap on the wrist" instead of a stiffer sentence (sadly, a convicted rapist can get off with less punishment than someone convicted personal use of a recreational drug with no violence or harm to others occurring).
ALL of those are things we should be working hard on rectifying, and doing so would go a LONG way towards reducing the numbers of rapes and increasing the amount of convictions.

Sometimes, unfortunately, someone gets off simply because lacking witnesses or video or some other evidence, it can be very hard to prove rape. This is terrible when it results in a rapist going free, but I think it would be FAR more terrible to convict the innocent by rigging the system to favour one gender over another.

I do realize that there are not that many false accusations happening, and that there are FAR more rapes that go unreported---but you do not right one wrong by leaving that alone and creating a new wrong to "balance" the numbers somehow.

 

[NHdisneylover]

And yes, obviously if a woman gets a man drunk/drugged and has sex with him it is rape. If she blackmails him and has sex with him, it's rape. If she makes him feel like a ***** because men should always want sex and then has sex with him when he didn't really want it, it's rape. Unfortunately men are still raised in a culture that says being dominated, especially by women, is the most shameful thing and so they don't report it.

Feminism actually helps to fix that. Feminism is for ALL genders.

Actually, I do not think that is "obvious" at all. If, as many have said in this thread, in many places penetration is part of the legal definition of rape, in the many scenarios you list above, it is entirely possible only he penetrated her, so by the poorly written legal definition it would not count as him being raped.

And I have not seen anyone, in the hypothetical discussion on the thread, say that someone getting someone else drunk in order to have sex with them is not rape (sorry if I missed it--and if it was said, I strongly disagree with that opinion).
What I have seen, and what I think, is that two more or less equally impaired individuals does not mean either is taking advantage or a rapist.

I fully agree that changing laws, perceptions, rules and culture to respect women equally as men and to protect PEOPLE is good for both women and men. very good and how things should be.
What I do not agree with is taking the attitude (which some posters displayed and which we DO still see in our society too often) that the man should be assumed guilty unless he can be proven innocent in sexual matters. I think that is bad for both men and women.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Actually, I do not think that is "obvious" at all. If, as many have said in this thread, in many places penetration is part of the legal definition of rape, in the many scenarios you list above, it is entirely possible only he penetrated her, so by the poorly written legal definition it would not count as him being raped.

And I have not seen anyone, in the hypothetical discussion on the thread, say that someone getting someone else drunk in order to have sex with them is not rape (sorry if I missed it--and if it was said, I strongly disagree with that opinion).
What I have seen, and what I think, is that two more or less equally impaired individuals does not mean either is taking advantage or a rapist.

I fully agree that changing laws, perceptions, rules and culture to respect women equally as men and to protect PEOPLE is good for both women and men. very good and how things should be.
What I do not agree with is taking the attitude (which some posters displayed and which we DO still see in our society too often) that the man should be assumed guilty unless he can be proven innocent in sexual matters. I think that is bad for both men and women.

You explained it much better than I've been able. Thanks.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Actually, I do not think that is "obvious" at all. If, as many have said in this thread, in many places penetration is part of the legal definition of rape, in the many scenarios you list above, it is entirely possible only he penetrated her, so by the poorly written legal definition it would not count as him being raped.

And I have not seen anyone, in the hypothetical discussion on the thread, say that someone getting someone else drunk in order to have sex with them is not rape (sorry if I missed it--and if it was said, I strongly disagree with that opinion).
What I have seen, and what I think, is that two more or less equally impaired individuals does not mean either is taking advantage or a rapist.

I fully agree that changing laws, perceptions, rules and culture to respect women equally as men and to protect PEOPLE is good for both women and men. very good and how things should be.
What I do not agree with is taking the attitude (which some posters displayed and which we DO still see in our society too often) that the man should be assumed guilty unless he can be proven innocent in sexual matters. I think that is bad for both men and women.

I love what you said!

I have seen a lot of guys lives ruined because people assumed he was guilty when he was innocent. I wouldn't want any innocent person to have their life ruined by not having all the facts.

I also don't think anyone is blaming the victim in this thread.

Did she drink too much? Yes. Did she deserve to have any kind of violence towards her? no. Should she have stayed home? Yes! 8 shots of vodka is a lot! Plus, the beer! I hope she didn't drive!!!!

 

[sunshinehighway]

I hope her friends feel like crap for leaving her. Young people go out, they drink too much. I'm not going to judge that because I had my own wild nights in my younger days. Friends need to look out for one another.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I hope her friends feel like crap for leaving her. Young people go out, they drink too much. I'm not going to judge that because I had my own wild nights in my younger days. Friends need to look out for one another.

Why did they leave her? My girls are taught to have a buddy system and never ever leave someone, even if they want you to.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Why did they leave her? My girls are taught to have a buddy system and never ever leave someone, even if they want you to.

the article linked above says they leave her at HOB and the guy quickly swoops in.
it's really important for people, especially women, to remember to look out for one another, especially if they are going to be out partying.
While nobody should be assaulting, raping, robbing... anyone else, the truth is there are people who go out looking for drunk people to take advantage of.