If you've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, ask & discuss it here.

Originally posted by dmadman43
Look MM is free to make whatever "art" he wants. But, to pawn it off as a documentary is simply making a mockery of documentaries.


I keep hearing this argument over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, (and that's just from dmadman) but, for all intents and purposes, the movie still fits the definition of a documentary.

Unless, of course, dmadman is now the sole authority on what get called a documentary as Galahad seems to be the sole authority on what is called "art."
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Just to be clear, I'm not ducking it, just saying it's not relevant to this thread.

How predictable! :rotfl:
 
To me what is sad about this whole F/911 thing is that after almost 3 years removed from that tragic day, the first theatrical release regarding 9/11 is this piece of crap. We look back on WWII and saw all the great movies that attempted to tell the story of the brave men and women that fought in that war, and today, we get crap from MM that does not attempt tell the story around the events that launched the war on terrorism, but rather is a political hatchet piece intended to help defeat a President. Don't get me wrong. MM has every right to apply his tiny brain to such an effort. I just find it sad that when we look back, this will be the first "9/11" theatrical release we can point to.

This really disrespects the souls that lost their lives that day, and the brave men and women that worked to save them. I mean, where is the "Let's Roll" movie? Sad. Very sad, IMHO.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
This really disrespects the souls that lost their lives that day, and the brave men and women that worked to save them. I mean, where is the "Let's Roll" movie? Sad. Very sad, IMHO.

Wow. So you're clairvoyant?

Well, that explains the nic.
 

Originally posted by dmadman43
But, I take issue with him positioning it as something that it is not. "JFK" was not a documentary and North never positioned it as such. It was simply his view of the Kennedy assasination. I'm sure there were many people that viewed what they saw in there as an accurate portrayal of the events surrounding JFK's assassination. It wasn't. Same with "F9/11". It's NOT a documentary. If it's like any other MM movie, it a collage of sometimes unrelated footages pieced together to make the viewer THINK what he is seeing is accurate.

Wrong Oliver. You mean Oliver Stone right? Oliver North was someone else.

The big difference between JFK and F911 is that the first is a movie with actors. The second one is composed of documented footage of the real people. Hence: Documentary. At least it fulfills the requisites of the Academy or Cannes festival to participate under that category (what do those bleeding heart ignorants know, right?)

Does the fact that MM includes his own commentary and opinions to the footage make it less of a documentary? To some, it may. He has said himself that it is more of a Op-Ed piece. The difference is that in this piece, images speak a thousand words and stay in people's minds longer than a regular editorial. This is a powerful movie and can change people's minds, and that is why so many people on the other side of the fence are so angry and trying to bring it down.
 
I suggest you take a class in the humanities. Or even a quick trip to your local library.

I have sir. Several. I suggest you save your condescension for your clients. The argument over the nature of art has been going on for centuries. Plenty of "experts" take a position similar to mine.

I am familiar with all of the works you mentioned. None of them purports to do what F 9/11 intends to do.

Do you, in fact, consider a campaign commercial art?

To suggest that such-and-such isn't "art" because it has political over-tones is, well, ignorant.

It might be. Except that I didn't say that.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
To me what is sad about this whole F/911 thing is that after almost 3 years removed from that tragic day, the first theatrical release regarding 9/11 is this piece of crap. We look back on WWII and saw all the great movies that attempted to tell the story of the brave men and women that fought in that war, and today, we get crap from MM that does not attempt tell the story around the events that launched the war on terrorism, but rather is a political hatchet piece intended to help defeat a President. Don't get me wrong. MM has every right to apply his tiny brain to such an effort. I just find it sad that when we look back, this will be the first "9/11" theatrical release we can point to.

This really disrespects the souls that lost their lives that day, and the brave men and women that worked to save them. I mean, where is the "Let's Roll" movie? Sad. Very sad, IMHO.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Did you see "The Fog of War"? Winner of this year's Oscar for Best documentary?

It consisted basically of historic footage and interviews with Robert McNamara, the architect of the Vietnam giving advice to future generations. I read Rumsfeld declined to see it (he is making the same mistakes plus some of his own). Do yourself a favor and watch it. Incredibly powerful stuff. I am sure that if more people saw it, it would have an even bigger effect than F911.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/
 
/
Originally posted by Galahad
I have sir. Several. I suggest you save your condescension for your clients. The argument over the nature of art has been going on for centuries. Plenty of "experts" take a position similar to mine.

I am familiar with all of the works you mentioned. None of them purports to do what F 9/11 intends to do.

Do you, in fact, consider a campaign commercial art?



It might be. Except that I didn't say that.


Ahhh... Not only does he define what is art and what is not but he purports to "know" an individual through the exchange of messages on an internet discussion board!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
How predictable! :rotfl:

What to start a new thread t discuss the 9/11 comission, be my guest.

BTW, glad to see I can stil depend on you as my straightman.
 
Originally posted by Galahad


Do you, in fact, consider a campaign commercial art?

Personally, I adhere to a very expansive definition of art, and feel a campaign commercial could fall into that category. It doesn't have to be something I'd hang on my wall or even something that I would call good. It was something envisioned and designed to elicit a certain response and it reflects particular social viewpoints. It is performance, and performance is a whole category of art.

Indeed, MM alluded to this in the film with the numerous pieces of footage of political leaders straightening thier hair, putting on make-up, etc. Politicians are performers, no matter what party they are from. They have to follow certain aesthetic rules or they pay the consequences. Look no further than Dean's "I have a scream" speech.
 
Indeed, MM alluded to this in the film with the numerous pieces of footage of political leaders straightening thier hair,


rcyannacci,


okay...you know exactly which scene you just evoked.....just in time to ruin my dinner :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
rcyannacci,

okay...you know exactly which scene you just evoked.....just in time to ruin my dinner :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Oh, dear...please accept my sincerest apology. You know, I've been feeling a bit queasy all day. It's probably this very image stuck in my subconscious that's the culprit. ;)
 
has this been posted before?

Letterman's Top Ten List: Top Ten George W. Bush Complaints About
"Fahrenheit 9/11":

10. That actor who played the President was totally unconvincing

9. It oversimplified the way I stole the election

8. Too many of them fancy college-boy words

7. If Michael Moore had waited a few months, he could have included the
part where I get him deported

6. Didn't have one of them hilarious monkeys who smoke cigarettes and
gives people the finger

5. Of all Michael Moore's accusations, only 97% are true

4. Not sure - - I passed out after a piece of popcorn lodged in my
windpipe

3. Where the hell was Spider-man?

2. Couldn't hear most of the movie over Cheney's foul mouth

1. I thought this was supposed to be about dodgeball
 
Some interesting information:

Moore's an Eagle Scout.

See http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0704-05.htm
>
>NEW YORK - As a young boy, I loved the American flag. I'd lead my
>younger sisters in patriotic parades up and down the sidewalk, waving
>the flag, blowing a whistle and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance over
>and over until my sisters begged me to let them go back to their
>Easy-Bake Oven.
>
>I loved singing the national anthem. I won an essay contest on "What
the
>Flag Means to Me." I decorated my bicycle with little American flags
for
>a Fourth of July parade and won a prize for that too. I became an Eagle
>Scout and proudly promised to do my duty to God and country.
>



Some more interesting information:

See http://www.indiewire.com/onthescene/onthescene_040702docs.html

"Of course it's a documentary, it's a non-fiction film, it's a
documentary," emphasized Michael Moore, during a conference call with a
group of journalists earlier this week. "Documentaries by their very
nature are supposed to have a point of view. The word has also been used
over the years -- from 'NBC White Paper' to any of a number of forms of
documentary. My form of doc is an op-ed piece. It presents my opinion
that's based on fact. I am trying to present a view of the last
three-and-a-half years that I don't feel has been presented to the
American public."

"Yes, 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is a doc," noted Ira Deutchman, an indie veteran
who was a founder of Fine Line Features, "Michael Moore is just pushing
the envelope further away from the pretense of reality that people
usually associate with documentaries."

Morgan Spurlock agreed, saying, "Many people have seemed to jump on the
bandwagon that once a documentary becomes subjective or presents an
obvious point of view from the director then it is no longer a
documentary. I do not agree, for I believe that the very act of
filmmaking, whether fictional or non-fictional, is filled with
subjective decisions made on the part of the director for the betterment
of his/her piece. Just because you are presenting facts and crafting an
honest storyline does not completely remove the involvement of one's
viewpoint from a project... we knowingly make decisions in the edit room
that can effect the audience's reaction."

Chisholm" director Lynch said, "It is a documentary that is a well
structured and thought provoking story. Rather than being contextual in
approach, it is dialoguing with Americans that have a context for
understanding 9/11, the Iraq War, and the Bush administration. I think
Michael Moore's motivation is that he believes Americans are not being
given the whole story. The documentary is meant to fill in the gaps. In
other words, the audience is bringing a lot to the table in terms of the
broader context for a fuller understanding."

SXSW's Dentler had this to say: "It's also borderline propaganda, just
like a newspaper's endorsement for a politician during an election. No
matter how important I feel the message is, and no matter how much I
agree with it, it's hard to look at the film as objective." Dentler
added that he liked the film and agreed that it is a documentary.
"Historical documentaries or 'talking head' pieces should tell both
sides of the story, both sides of the history. And, in a sense,
'Fahrenheit' tries to portray itself as a historical doc, but it's
really closer to propaganda. I think a very key point of this is how the
film credits Michael Moore as the writer, a credit (that) documentaries
rarely feature."

Braun said, "'Fahrenheit 9/11' is a documentary like 'Super Size Me' and
'*******' are documentaries. They are non-fiction narrative films that
skillfully manipulate reality for the sake of truth, entertainment, and
a satisfying narrative structure, not always in that order."






and another joke:

http://tomburka.com/

July 03, 2004
"Fahrenheit 9/11" Not Even About Temperature, Say Republicans
Conservatives across the country are complaining vehemently about what
they called "the countless and innumerable inaccuracies" of Michael
Moore's documentary and polemic film, "Fahrenheit 9/11."

"For one thing, the title is intensely misleading," said Spartelby Fisk,
a Republican gnome. "It has nothing to do with heat. It's a crock."

Fisk said that the film is a travesty. "For one thing, early in the
film, President Bush moves in slow motion. President Bush has never
moved in slow motion. This is just an out-and-out lie."

At several points Bush is shown in freeze frame. "He's never been that
motionless," said Fisk. "This film is utterly dishonest."

Fisk also derided Moore for depicting Bush as "pasty" and "beady-eyed,"
and oft-times blurry and out-of-focus. "The President has always been
distinct and clearly-defined," said Fisk.

In a private conversation, Karl Rove was heard to disagree. "I would
never allow President Bush to be seen clearly by the American people.
Good lord, how would I ever get anybody to vote for him?"
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Ahhh... Not only does he define what is art and what is not but he purports to "know" an individual through the exchange of messages on an internet discussion board!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

??

Where did I "define" art and what did I purport to know about you? I have offered an opinion about what I think might not be art. Is it too presumtious to have an opinion? Simply defending against insult I guess goes too far.........? After all, you presume to know what is and isn't on my transcripts......
 
Originally posted by rcyannacci
Personally, I adhere to a very expansive definition of art, and feel a campaign commercial could fall into that category. It doesn't have to be something I'd hang on my wall or even something that I would call good. It was something envisioned and designed to elicit a certain response and it reflects particular social viewpoints. It is performance, and performance is a whole category of art.

Indeed, MM alluded to this in the film with the numerous pieces of footage of political leaders straightening thier hair, putting on make-up, etc. Politicians are performers, no matter what party they are from. They have to follow certain aesthetic rules or they pay the consequences. Look no further than Dean's "I have a scream" speech.

Now that is interesting (and I know really OT). Obviously I don't think I adhere to your expansive view of art. You could take the next step and call ALL human activity art and get REALLY pedantic about it. But your mention of "following certain aesthetic rules" is interesting. Said another way....are you suggesting that if communication itself is effective then that communication is "art"?

Feel free to move this to another thread...........preferably one that isn't political.... ;)
 
Originally posted by Joeblack
Sorry, but you are wrong. Did you see "The Fog of War"? Winner of this year's Oscar for Best documentary?

It consisted basically of historic footage and interviews with Robert McNamara, the architect of the Vietnam giving advice to future generations. I read Rumsfeld declined to see it (he is making the same mistakes plus some of his own). Do yourself a favor and watch it. Incredibly powerful stuff. I am sure that if more people saw it, it would have an even bigger effect than F911.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/

I'm sorry, I see nothing in that desciption that suggests "The Fog of War" is about "9/11" What am I missing?
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
Would that apply to facts about WMDs?.....how about facts about the "ties" between bin Laden and Hussein?
Did you miss my post to you? I'll repeat it:
What are you saying he lied about? That there was no collaborative relationship? That there are longstanding links between Saddam and al Qaeda?
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
This is from Michael Moore's own website regarding these flights. Since most of you didn't bother to see the movie before criticizing it, I'm sure you won't bother to read this either, but it's worth a shot :rolleyes:
This argument is of the strawman variety. You're attempting to discredit anything posted by anyone who has not seen the movie. It's completely irrelevant.
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Just thought I would share a comic from our local newspaper this morning...

comic.jpg


$61,118,488 and counting!
Oh, maybe you missed the post I directed to you, just like faithinkarma did. I'll repeat it:
Maybe you can explain in your own words why you are troubled by the Bushes, bin Ladens and the Carlyle Group. No links, just you telling me why this is an important point for the movie.
 

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