If you are Lutheran.....

[castlegazer]

I actually think, and people may flame me if they want to, that there are two bodies in the Lutheran Church (WELS/LCMS and ELCA) - one of which is not truly Lutheran anymore. The debate between the synods is similar to the debate right now in the Episcopal Church and, while the split already happened, has made two completely different religions.

WELS has Close communion for only those in the same belief as ours and you must be confirmed - i.e. 13 yo and have been through Catechism. We are pretty similar to the Catholic Church in many beliefs - you are saved through Christ alone (living in Christ rather than simply doing good works to be saved). As said above, we also are very strict to the teachings of the Bible which does exclude exclude acceptance of evolution, abortion, gay-rights, women as pastors and women voting (although, find me where this is written in the Bible). So depending on where you are feeling the pinch from your church, you will need to fully examine what one synod truly believes over another.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

LCMA has the same views as WELS regarding who can partake in communion.

Castlegazer-I seem to recall our Pastor telling us once that there was a difference between WELS and LCMS in the belief of the body and blood of Christ. One believes that it is actually Christs body and blood and the other believes it just represents it. Do you know which is which? I can't seem to remember for sure. Thanks.

 

[TigerBear]

Thank you TigerBear, that just confused me more. LOL!
From your comparisons of the 3 Lutheran branches the two things that get me with ELCA are teaching Evolution and Pro-abortion. How is evolution taught? Instead of creation? Or both? Do they teach the Big Bang theory?

Just to clarify those were not my comparisons - it was a quote from the site I referenced. I definitely am not an authority on the ELCA (I'm not even religious at this point in my life). However, I know some churches teach that evolution and creationism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. God may have started all with a big bang...a day back then may not have been 24 hours.

 

[Piglet's Pal]

The Lutheran Chruch that we belong to is ELCA and I just wanted to say that we receive Communion every Sunday.
PP

 

[castlegazer]

We believe its the actual body and blood - so it must be us.

Heres a statement about it (which has an interesting preface on this web page about arising differences in this belief and a wish to come to agreement between ELS and WELS - http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=795&contentID=4445&shortcutID=5298):

Statement on the Lord's Supper


In the matter under discussion we need to study Christ's words of institution in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and in 1 Corinthians, as well as St. Paul's additional statements about the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 11 and 10. On that basis we can establish the following concerning the essence of the usus of the Lord's Supper (consecration, distribution, reception):


1. The real and substantial presence of Christ's body and blood during the usus.

2. The sacramental union of bread and wine and of Christ's body and blood during the usus.

3. The oral manducation of bread and wine and Christ's body and blood by all the communicants during the usus.

4. The real presence of the body and blood of Christ in the usus is brought about solely and alone by the power of Christ according to the words of institution, that is, by His command and promise. We accept this statement (Point 4) with the understanding that:

a) The real presence is effected solely by the original words of institution spoken by our Lord (causa efficiens) and repeated by the officiant at His command (causa instrumentalis).

b) While we cannot fix from Scripture the point within the sacramental usus when the real presence of Christ's body and blood begins, we know from Scripture and acknowledge in the Confessions that what is distributed and received is the body and blood of Christ. c) The Confessions do not assert more as a point of doctrine than the above, which is clearly taught in Scripture.

​

 

[Bichon Barb]

Just got back from lunch and errands and have read through this thread. It's quite educational.

As I said, I'm ELCA. My husband and sons are Catholic. The ELCA invites all who believe in Jesus to take communion. The ELCA churchs around here give communion the first Sunday of every month. My husband's church only allows Catholics to take communion.

Another big deal in the Lutheran Church (at least the ELCA) is the music. A lot of the service is sung. And those Lutherans love to sing it loud! All kidding aside, after a few years of attending Mass with my family, I decided to go back to a Lutheran service one Sunday. I had forgotten how powerful the music was. I was really moved. So moved that I was "verklempft" and had to really hold back the tears. LOL.

 

[Kallison]

Hey Papa Deuce -- A lot of my friends from our Lutheran Church were Catholic. I call our church Catholic without the guilt. We have many gay members, it isn't an issue. When we take communion, anyone can take it. Technically it is supposed to become the body and blood of christ as in Catholic Church, but they definitely don't teach that in our first communion classes. Just say it signifies body and blood. What else? We like to eat a lot.

 

[phillybeth]

IWe are pretty similar to the Catholic Church in many beliefs - you are saved through Christ alone (living in Christ rather than simply doing good works to be saved).

But doesn't living in Christ INCLUDE doing good works? Jesus didn't just preach, He ministered to the outcast, dined with prostitutes and tax collectors, the scum of Jewish society in those times. He performed a miracle merely to please His mother. He fed the hungry. IMO it's not enough to merely accept Jesus as God and Savior, you must strive to become Him as much as possible- and that includes good works.

 

[castlegazer]

Yes, that's actually why I said that. You are supposed to do good works and live as Christ did - BUT - we don't believe that is the path to salvation. Believing in Christ as your savior is the path to salvation.

I'm really sorry I don;t have time this afternoon to really go into this but follow this link to a much more detailed description of what we believe:
http://www.wels.net/s3/uploaded/4421/eng.pdf

 

[Jenn Lynn]

But doesn't living in Christ INCLUDE doing good works? Jesus didn't just preach, He ministered to the outcast, dined with prostitutes and tax collectors, the scum of Jewish society in those times. He performed a miracle merely to please His mother. He fed the hungry. IMO it's not enough to merely accept Jesus as God and Savior, you must strive to become Him as much as possible- and that includes good works.

Right, but I think people (in general) get confused and think that their good works will get them into heaven. You do good works, self-lessly, because you want live a Godly life NOT to get yourself into Heaven. And the fact is that we will fail. And when we fail it is God's Grace that saves us. We repent and try again to live in his image.

 

[disykat]

Good explanation, Jenn Lynn. I like to think of it as "saved by grace, called to his service".

I go to an ELCA church because I agree more with their doctrine than other Lutheran churches. I get upset sometimes by the "liberal" turn, but keep my voice active in church polititics and utilize my vote - something I would not be allowed to do in many LCMS/WELS churches due to the fact that I am a woman. Depending on the congregation, I have felt at home in some other synods - I was confirmed in the LCMS - but ultimately shared communion is a real biggie for me.

My parents are still LCMS (because that's what's available in their town) and the the new minister has said he is willing to make "an exception" and allow their kids to commune when they visit. Most of my parents friend's kids (and almost all the kids in my confirmation class/ youth group) are now members of the ELCA and technically not welcome to commune at our old church. With previous ministers it hasn't been an issue - we were welcomed.

That said, I love being Lutheran. My dh is very conservative and I can see a time when we may have to join an LCMS church or leave the Lutheran church. Depending on the congregation, I would probably choose to join LCMS rather than leave. I actually would not be surprised if another synod forms - dividing the ELCA - at some point. That would be sad, considering I was active at the time of the merger between LCA and ALC, but I can see it happening.

 

[disneymom3]

From http://experts.about.com/q/956/3795472.htm

The difference between Lutheran churches is major! I will attempt to point out some of the major areas:

Evangelical Lutheran Church in American: teaches salvation outside of Chrisitanity, favors women pastors, leans towards homosexual rights and ordination, teaches evolution, and is fairly pro-abortion. .

This is very interesting. And quite odd. Our church is definitely ELCA and definitely and adamantly against gay marriage, against abortion and for creation science. And they teach that the only way to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour and that salvation is open to all. Hmmm. Obviously this highlights some of the differences in churches that may technically be the same denomination.

I also wanted to add from my first post, but ran out of time, that the two Catholic churches we attended in this area were totally different from the one we were members of before. That one was very open to children, had a very upbeat and moving mass every week and a priest who sat down and talked with the kids individually about the meaning of sin and why it displeased God and emphasized that we are always forgiven and that Jesus died to save us from that sin. Again, a highlight of why you need to look at individual churches and not just assume from the faith what it will be like.

 

[castlegazer]

I think I see a huge difference in many of the ELCA churches through this thread too. Interesting.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

So in ELCA anyone can take communion even if they are not confirmed?

In our LCMS church they had a couple of questions on the back of a card in the pew. I think they were along the lines of "Do you believe God is your Savior" and "Do you believe in the Trinity", something like this I don't remember for sure. Anyway, if you were a visitor, no matter what religion, they asked that you read the questions and if you agreed with them then please feel free to partake in communion. They left it up to you and God. The questions were VERY basic about faith.

 

[mjslvswdw1]

As I stated before I'm LCMS and we to have a similar card, but you must speak to the pastor. My new husband has spoken with him and our church practices close communion and only until he is confirmed in the LCMS can he participate in the sacrament. It has been like that in every LCMS church I've belonged to or been to...maybe it is different in a different part of the country!

Melissa

 

[Jenn Lynn]

Iowa is not that far from IL.

I just think each congregation is different. Is yours really big? Ours is HUGE! I don't think they would be able to talk to all of the out of town guests every week. LOL!

 

[mjslvswdw1]

Jenn,

How funny...I guess it isn't that far! I grew up in a church with about 200 members, when I went to college it was about 1000 members and the one I've been at now for five years is about 500-600. I love my church and really like both of our pastors...they have started incorpoating Luther's small catitcism(sp) in the services...kind of a refreasher course! I think my husband will at least go through the class and I will go with him.

Melissa

 

[disykat]

So in ELCA anyone can take communion even if they are not confirmed?

Basically, yes. At our church a very general statement about all are welcome here is stated. However it is understood that it is "all who believe and are baptized". Everyone comes to the table and those who don't commune are blessed. At some churches, they serve communion to very young children. At my church and at the one I attended in my last town, they have an early communion class available to children at around 5th grade (and sometimes much younger depending on the parent) where the pastor talks with them about communion prior to receiving 1st communion. It is very big in the ELCA to serve communion as often as possible, so it is rare to find congregations who don't have it weekly.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

As some of the answers to the OPs question have already illustrated quite clearly, it can be rather dangerous (and perhaps even incendiary) to attempt to say "ELCA Lutherans believe and teach... but LCMS Lutherans believe and teach... and WELS Lutherans believes and teach..." It is safe to say, however, that all Lutherans believe and teach the same theology about Holy Baptism -- we do have differing opinions on Holy Communion (re: who may receive it). We subscribe to the same beliefs as set out in the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (i.e. the Book of Concord) however we interpret them differently and how those beliefs inform our day-to-day lives.

I'm a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada -- the Canadian "version" of the ELCA, except that we've been around longer than they have. We are a much smaller church than the ELCA -- reflecting Lutheran immigration patterns in the 18th and 19th centuries.

All this said -- I have found many "recovering" Roman Catholics living very comfortable lives as members of the ELCIC and I have found many practising Roman Catholics enjoying their place within Lutheran worship while their Lutheran spouse enjoys a similar place within Roman Catholic worship. Like the ELCIC, the ELCA is involved in ecumenical relations with the Roman Catholic Church (and the Episcopalians). The liturgy of the mass is very similar to the Lutheran liturgy of Holy Communion and one will find similar people take similar roles in a Lutheran church service as in a Roman Catholic church service. On many occasions Roman Catholics have noted to me, "The services are very much the same." The reasons for this coincidence can be found within the basic tenets of the Evangelical Lutheran faith (which includes WELS and LCMS) -- Martin Luther and his allies preserved the Mass in all its forms.

So nice to find someone asking about Lutheranism -- and so nice to read such a wide range of answers as to how each Lutheran understands their faith.

 

[JKLLady]

Another ELCA checking in; my original parish was LCA, and became ELCA upon the merger. My DD, 18 was baptized at my original parish & my MIL, a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic (it was the first time she had been in a Protestant church), said to me afterwards "It was just like a mass". I gathered that she expected we were a bunch of heathens.
As you can guess, my DH was raised Catholic & became Lutheran. He found it to be a natural progression. We were married in my MIL's Catholic church & I am very familiar with that church's teachings, but my DH could not agree with many of their edicts, and switched.
I'm rather a traditionalist & switched parishes several years ago when we didn't agree with our "new" pastor. He began to introduce "healing" and folk services; not my cup of tea! Our current parish is still ELCA, and very traditional, DS, 7 attends Sunday School & was just a Wise Man in last weeks Sunday School play.
ELCA may be "Catholic light", but I find its teachings to be very much with the modern world while maintaining a traditional structure.