If resorts closed, will DVC rental companies and Hotwire refund your money?

[lanejudy]

Not exactly. Quoting from the renter agreement on David's, "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only."

Points aren't just an entity on their own - they're an accounting representation of a fractional slice of time at a resort. Thus, per the agreement, a seller can't accept money (or not refund it) without being able to provide the accommodation.

I think a lawyer could easily argue that bolded phrase to be the definition of the points, not that the owner can be held accountable for accommodations (which is outside of their control). The DVC owner can only provide the points which by definition represent accommodations because only WDW can provide the actual accommodation. The DVC owner can't be held legally accountable to provide something they have no control over (the status of the resort facility). They can be held accountable for providing the points.

I don't have a bone in this fight. I see it as a catch-22, with owners, renters and the agency all caught in a situation that can't make everyone whole. And yet none are to blame.

 

[ScubaCat]

I don't have a bone in this fight. I see it as a catch-22, with owners, renters and the agency all caught in a situation that can't make everyone whole. And yet none are to blame.

To be fair, I'm not sure what the law states (nor do I feel very motivated to look it up ) Florida timeshare law probably settles this pretty easily.

 

[Marionnette]

Not exactly. Quoting from the renter agreement on David's, "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only."

Points aren't just an entity on their own - they're an accounting representation of a fractional slice of time at a resort. Thus, per the agreement, a seller can't accept money (or not refund it) without being able to provide the accommodation.

Bolding mine.

And herein lies the rub. The renter is agreeing to rent points. Those points have a finite life. They expire at the end of an owner’s use year. They can only be “banked” once and banking must be done before a deadline. The points that they rented may have already been banked. They may expire at the end of a March, or May or July. They may be past the banking deadline and must be used in the next 5 months or less. There may not be the same accommodations available that the points were originally used for. It may cost more points to book those same accommodations when the renter wishes to travel. Or the renter may want to travel at a time that nothing is available.

I know that when I rented my points thru David’s in the past, they asked about the status of the points I was offering...when is my use year? Are they banked or borrowed points? Did I want to rent those points out for a premium rate (11-7 months prior to arrival). David’s should be well aware of the current status of those points even before they contact the owner. And to be perfectly honest, most owners don’t want to screw the renter or David’s. They will do what they can for their renters.

 

[Pooh2]

I have rented points 4 times over the past few years through a broker understanding that I cannot cancel or get a refund.
It would never have occurred to me that Disney World would close!
We were suppose to be there this week with resort booked directly through Disney. One click on MDE and we had our money back.
After reading about the stress of people left holding the bag, I would be very hesitant to book through a broker again or through Hotwire.
My thoughts go out to those dealing with the financial loss on top of the lost vacation experience.

 

[Minniesgal]

I booked a trip to Aulani through David's Vacation rentals. It's for mid April. At this point I would go if the resort was open, but I doubt they will do anything for me if the resort closes. I just assume some lucky DVC owner is going to get my money and their points back.

Reality is owners might get points back but a large percentage will be wholly unusable due to expiry before there is availability to book.

 

[Searc]

I am dealing with them now. DVC owners ARE getting their points back. David's DVC Rentals told me that they are asking owners "if" they will work with us and they are waving their staunch refund policy at this time. However, if the owner doesn't give the money back, then David's DVC says I am out the $5,600. I will never use them again - they have shut their phone lines down and mandate that you communicate through email. With them taking over 24 hours to respond and it is a different person responding each time - they really need to get their act together.

A little grace is in order, don't you think? You knew going in it was nonrefundable. They are overwhelmed and SWAMPED with customers trying to get answers for trips that are weeks away. You aren't their only customer.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Yeah makes sense since they probably weren't going to be able to use the points anyways right? It was my first time renting instead of paying cash at a DVC property.

Reality is owners might get points back but a large percentage will be wholly unusable due to expiry before there is availability to book.

 

[JenniJ]

If the renter receives their points back and either uses them or re-rents then that is the very definition of double dipping which is illegal.

This is exactly what I am concerned about. The resort is closed still when our trip occurs. I bought the PP from DVC Rental Store, but can't get my money back because I waited to see if the resort will open. The broker gets paid. The owner gets points back, with the chance to resell the points. (YEs, they may not, but they could if they get them back) The broker gets paid again.
The renter is out no matter what.
I know it is a sticky situation, but in the end the renter has more to loose.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

To be clear:

Owners are not getting points back in all cases. Or, rather, they are not getting usable points back. Banking and borrowing rules are being maintained. At first, borrowed points were going back to 2020UY (where almost all of them were borrowed from), but now they are being left in the UY they were borrowed to (2019 UY at this point; only two contract months have entered 2020 as yet). A lot of current UY points are past banking deadlines AND up against expiration at this point.

DVC has changed the rules multiple times THIS WEEK alone.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The broker gets paid. The owner gets points back, with the chance to resell the points. (YEs, they may not, but they could if they get them back)

They may not be able to, depending on the points. If someone is holding April 2019 points, they expire 3/31. June UY points, they are past banking, and nearly impossible to use at this point even if resorts reopen after Easter.

There are a lot of factors around points usage and expiration in play at this stage. Renters don't see if someone is using banked or borrowed points, or points running up against expiry.

 

[Bearval]

If they won't give a refund, then I guess it's fair game for a credit card company dispute. The consumer would seem likely to win that one, as the promised goods (hotel stay) were not delivered. If the resort is actually closed and there is literally no way for the consumer to stay there, I don't see how the companies can legally justify keeping the money.

Your dispute will be with the rental agency and not the owner. Most rentals for DVC make you sign at least 2 documents that the rental agency will give to the credit card company so they win the dispute. One will be the document that basically states you are well aware this contract is non refundable and the second would be the one where you decline trip insurance . You have to prove you been defrauded.

 

[fla4fun]

If I had paid in advance for a room in a resort, and the resort was closed so I could not stay there, if anything less than a full refund was paid I would dispute the charge on my credit card.

You may or may not win, depending on the wording in the agreement that you signed when you booked the trip. It’s not always that simple. If you signed documentation that spelled out in detail that the transaction was non-refundable, then you accepted the risk when you completed the transaction. All the rental company will have to do is provide proof that you knew the terms and conditions prior to purchase. If the cancellation policy wasn’t addressed up front, then you have a better chance of winning. It may not seem fair, but this is the kind of thing fine print was invented for. I am sure this is really going to alter the rental market in the future and I would not be surprised to see quite a few contracts up for sale when the dust settles.

I hope everyone is able to recoup their costs and move forward.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Here is what the renter agreed to through David’s last year when they rented our points:

David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort. The Walt Disney Company and the Disney Vacation Club are constantly improving their resorts and properties for the current and future enjoyment of all guests. Your trip or your resort amenities may or may not be impacted by construction at Disney resorts and properties. While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David's Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control.

If I were a lawyer, I would say that closing the resort falls under operations and David’s isn’t liable.

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

All the rental company will have to do is provide proof that you knew the terms and conditions prior to purchase.

No, that isn't all there is to it. They also have to prove that they provided the product or services promised. In this case, with a closed resort, and if the company won't let the renter change dates to when the resort is open, then the renter has effectively been swindled out of money and does deserve it back. "Nonrefunable" doesn't give the provider the right to not provide the goods. It's like when an airline cancels your nonrefundable flight: they still owe you your money back.

 

[Sandisw]

Not exactly. Quoting from the renter agreement on David's, "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only."

Points aren't just an entity on their own - they're an accounting representation of a fractional slice of time at a resort. Thus, per the agreement, a seller can't accept money (or not refund it) without being able to provide the accommodation.

I will add this is the reason that DVC doesn’t allow for payments for transfer. Because points by themselves have no value

 

[fla4fun]

No, that isn't all there is to it. They also have to prove that they provided the product or services promised. In this case, with a closed resort, and if the company won't let the renter change dates to when the resort is open, then the renter has effectively been swindled out of money and does deserve it back. "Nonrefunable" doesn't give the provider the right to not provide the goods. It's like when an airline cancels your nonrefundable flight: they still owe you your money back.

That’s why I said it depends on how detailed the paperwork was that the renter signed. I do not work in the rental business, so I don’t have experience with this specific industry, although as part of my work experience I have been the one who responded to disputes made against the company I worked for. If the wording is that you are renting points, and they prove you got the points (not what the points will “buy”, but the points), and knew that renting the points was non refundable before you agreed, it is going to be harder to win than a case with a less specific set of terms and conditions. I am not saying people shouldn’t try a dispute as a last resort, but it’s not a slam dunk that they will win.

Sometimes the card issuer will absorb the cost as well, and issue a refund to the customer without penalizing the merchant because both sides have good reasons why they should win. We could see more of that happening as well, although that could cause increased rates or fees for credit cards in the future as a result.

It’s not pretty, no matter which side of the transaction you are on.

 

[Sandisw]

That’s why I said it depends on how detailed the paperwork was that the renter signed. I do not work in the rental business, so I don’t have experience with this specific industry, although as part of my work experience I have been the one who responded to disputes made against the company I worked for. If the wording is that you are renting points, and they prove you got the points (not what the points will “buy”, but the points), and knew that renting the points was non refundable before you agreed, it is going to be harder to win than a case with a less specific set of terms and conditions. I am not saying people shouldn’t try a dispute as a last resort, but it’s not a slam dunk that they will win.

Sometimes the card issuer will absorb the cost as well, and issue a refund to the customer without penalizing the merchant because both sides have good reasons why they should win. We could see more of that happening as well, although that could cause increased rates or fees for credit cards in the future as a result.

It’s not pretty, no matter which side of the transaction you are on.

The thing is it is impossible to provide a renter with points unless it comes with a room,

So, there would be no way for the renter to receive the points until the check into the resort, So, if the resort is not open, they can’t even get the points.

In that case, I think it would be hard for the renter to lose the CC dispute because they paid for something and didn’t get it.

It also does say about not responsible for operations but it specifically lists what those are. It doesn’t include the words “included but not limited to”, so I don’t know if that would play a role as well.

 

[erbeaman]

I am getting a refund for a Hotwire Hot Rate. They emailed me to let me know that they were refunding because the hotel was going to be closed (POR). The crazy thing is, my reservations don't start until April 2... That seems like pretty good evidence that the parks won't be reopening by April 1!

 

[ScubaCat]

I am getting a refund for a Hotwire Hot Rate. They emailed me to let me know that they were refunding because the hotel was going to be closed (POR). The crazy thing is, my reservations don't start until April 2... That seems like pretty good evidence that the parks won't be reopening by April 1!

No way they'll be open then. We'll be lucky if they're able to open in May at this point.

 

[hereforthechurros]

I am dealing with them now. DVC owners ARE getting their points back. David's DVC Rentals told me that they are asking owners "if" they will work with us and they are waving their staunch refund policy at this time. However, if the owner doesn't give the money back, then David's DVC says I am out the $5,600. I will never use them again - they have shut their phone lines down and mandate that you communicate through email. With them taking over 24 hours to respond and it is a different person responding each time - they really need to get their act together.

Yeah I think I’m done with the DVC rental agencies as well. Each inquiry takes 30 hours to answer which is ridiculous when you’re dealing with a reservation system that changes by the minute. That and their jump to $20/point really takes away a lot of the savings.

I hope they can resolve your situation.