Ian

[nancipants]

I've got friends and relatives all through Central Florida. And it seems to be incredibly localized. Some have trees down, some have been without power since late yesterday morning, some have flooding in their homes. And some are perfectly intact without power so much as blinking and just a few leaves in the yard. Crazy how different everything can be just a couple of miles apart.

My house is absolutely fine, except for a previously fixed leak in our roof getting worse. Never lost power. No flooding. Lots of debris around our neighborhood, but nothing major.

Friend lives 45 minutes away. Her house is still without power. In-law's house five minutes from her never lost power.

My mom lives 1.5 hours away in Port Orange. Her neighborhood is flooded and she's had no power since yesterday morning, with no estimated time of restoration. No clue how long it will take for the water to recede and FPL is giving no estimated time of restoration.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

I mean, at some point building back in certain areas just won't be feasible. Just look at pacific island nations that are slowly being swallowed up by rising oceans - some even have plans for ensuring their citizens are trained for jobs that will help them emigrate as their island becomes uninhabitable. If people want to build in risky locations, go right ahead, but it shouldn't be done at the cost of general taxpayers by way of insurance rates that are artificially forced low.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

No we should ban building on these islands. We shouldn't subsidize it either by offer low cost flood insurance so people can get mortgages.

You know the mortgage does not go away just because the house is destroyed. In fact, current mortgage contracts are written so if there is any insurance it is paid to the mortgage holder and IF they decide you can rebuild, they release money in stages to do it on a big rebuild. If they decide not to do it, then the insurance is just paid to the mortgage subservicer and applied to the mortgage loan. The homeowner has to pay for any estimates and plans to get a plan together to present to see if they will get to rebuild. A lot of people trying to pay the mortgage and the cost of their temporary housing just cannot stretch that far. Even if they have insurance, if there is a shortfall, the homeowner is still personally liable for the shortfall. So, the insurance company decides how much they will pay, the mortgage company gets to control it and effectively gets to make the decisions. The homeowner still retains personal liability even if they do not have a habitable property. Most people cannot pay housing costs twice at the same time!

That's the first chapter. The second chapter is that since the homeowner has made a claim on their insurance, their name goes into a "C.L.U.E." database. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/homeowners-insurance/clue-report/
If they make huge insurance claims or too many, they cannot get insurance or they have to go to a high risk market which is horribly expensive. So, no insurance, no mortgage -- and as it is becoming more common. It doesn't stop there. No rental either because landlords want their tenants to carry insurance.

Also, just making an insurance claim and getting put in the CLUE database as a claimant can lower your credit score. A lower credit score means paying higher mortgage rates. I think it takes something like 7 years for a negative CLUE entry to fall off the database. I have also heard some people are hiring attorneys to cut deals with the mortgage companies and insurance companies to pay a premium so they will not be entered into a CLUE database.

Thinking that just not reporting a loss will shield you? Nope. If the insurance company or mortgage company finds out you have a loss that you did not report, it goes down quite poorly for the insured/borrower.

And you thought a good credit history was all you needed for a good credit rating? Not anymore.

I am very empathetic for all those caught in storms or in any loss situation -- whether or not the local government declared an emergency. (Generally, that is required to get any assistance.)

 

[MillauFr]

You know the mortgage does not go away just because the house is destroyed. In fact, current mortgage contracts are written so if there is any insurance it is paid to the mortgage holder and IF they decide you can rebuild, they release money in stages to do it on a big rebuild. If they decide not to do it, then the insurance is just paid to the mortgage subservicer and applied to the mortgage loan. The homeowner has to pay for any estimates and plans to get a plan together to present to see if they will get to rebuild. A lot of people trying to pay the mortgage and the cost of their temporary housing just cannot stretch that far. Even if they have insurance, if there is a shortfall, the homeowner is still personally liable for the shortfall. So, the insurance company decides how much they will pay, the mortgage company gets to control it and effectively gets to make the decisions. The homeowner still retains personal liability even if they do not have a habitable property. Most people cannot pay housing costs twice at the same time!

That's the first chapter. The second chapter is that since the homeowner has made a claim on their insurance, their name goes into a "C.L.U.E." database. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/homeowners-insurance/clue-report/
If they make huge insurance claims or too many, they cannot get insurance or they have to go to a high risk market which is horribly expensive. So, no insurance, no mortgage -- and as it is becoming more common. It doesn't stop there. No rental either because landlords want their tenants to carry insurance.

Also, just making an insurance claim and getting put in the CLUE database as a claimant can lower your credit score. A lower credit score means paying higher mortgage rates. I think it takes something like 7 years for a negative CLUE entry to fall off the database. I have also heard some people are hiring attorneys to cut deals with the mortgage companies and insurance companies to pay a premium so they will not be entered into a CLUE database.

Thinking that just not reporting a loss will shield you? Nope. If the insurance company or mortgage company finds out you have a loss that you did not report, it goes down quite poorly for the insured/borrower.

And you thought a good credit history was all you needed for a good credit rating? Not anymore.

I am very empathetic for all those caught in storms or in any loss situation -- whether or not the local government declared an emergency. (Generally, that is required to get any assistance.)

Agreed. A horrible situation for those affected.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

It is so much more than houses, the public cost comes with infrastructure damage and the ripple effect.

My point was that LIVING in areas that naturally come with risk is everywhere in this country and often in highly populated areas. California has a high percentage. Telling people to not develop where nature brings consequences applies all over this country, it's not just the very few in the grand scheme that live on barrier islands.

Very true. Hurricanes, floods due to heavy rains, forest wildfires, prairie wildfires, earthquakes, tornados, blizzards that down power and freeze pipes etc, landslides, smoke damage, insect invasions that destroy home construction materials, tsunamis, high winds, flash flooding, volcano eruptions, civil unrest, war and more . I am wondering if there is any area of the country that is free of all possible things that threaten homes. We are talking hurricane Ian here, but any policy has to be across the board.

 

[dvcgirl67]

No we shouldn't ban building on these islands. We shouldn't subsidize it either by offer low cost flood insurance so people can get mortgages.

Exactly right....the free market should decide. Unfortunately, a lot of folks aren't going to be able to rebuild or even repair their homes in some cases with this storm. Many of them already have learned (or are about to learn) the very hard lesson that their insurance will not cover water damage from Ian....even though the storm surge is caused by the storm itself. Most of the inland flooding from rain will not be covered at all. If you don't have flood insurance....you're out of luck. Also, many, many residents in this area are underinsured. It will be long tough recovery for sure.

 

[cm8]

We’ve now lost power for the second time today. Hopefully, we won’t be without it for too long!

 

[nancipants]

Also, many, many residents in this area are underinsured. It will be long tough recovery for sure.

Not to mention a lot of insurance companies dropping coverage in Florida completely. There will be much more after this.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Abr.lvI have a customer who moved down to Sanibel permanently during the pandemic. I texted her a couple of days before to wish them luck in the storm. I heard from her about 30 minutes ago...she said they have no idea when they'll be able to get back on the island, but have hearcatastrophic. I can't imagine .

We are in Sebastian. 48 hours and counting with no power but that’s nothing compared to the Ft Myers area.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Not to mention a lot of insurance companies dropping coverage in Florida completely. There will be much more after this.

I doubt ...it although premiums will go sky high for minmal coverage. They will try to wiggle out off paying legitimate claims. It's how insurance companies roll nowadays....delay, delay, delay.

A Florida exodus would have severe implications to surrounding states. It might just turn change things very significantly. Other coastal residents will be paying attention.

 

[JLTraveling]

We have to rebuild smarter. Up, not out. Condensed living. People don't like to hear that though. Everyone wants their own piece of land.

Great theory. Until we get hit by another, ya know, pandemic. How exactly are you supposed to stay six feet away from people if you're living literally on top of each other?

 

[wvjules]

Great theory. Until we get hit by another, ya know, pandemic. How exactly are you supposed to stay six feet away from people if you're living literally on top of each other?

How do you think the millions of people that live in condos/apartments did it this time?

I live in an apartment. I very easily avoided my neighbors during the pandemic. We were required to wear masks while in public spaces including the hallways, elevators, gym, mailroom, etc. It's not that hard.

 

[JLTraveling]

How do you think the millions of people that live in condos/apartments did it this time?

I live in an apartment. I very easily avoided my neighbors during the pandemic. We were required to wear masks while in public spaces including the hallways, elevators, gym, mailroom, etc. It's not that hard.

In normal apartments/condos, sure. But she was suggesting condensing all the people who currently live in houses, along with all the people who currently live in apartments or condos, into gigantic apartment buildings somehow. Which would make for crowding we can't even begin to imagine.

 

[dvcgirl67]

In normal apartments/condos, sure. But she was suggesting condensing all the people who currently live in houses, along with all the people who currently live in apartments or condos, into gigantic apartment buildings somehow. Which would make for crowding we can't even begin to imagine.

Well, I believe she also said it's not going to happen, because people want land. I'm surprised at how many detached homes on slabs were that close to the Gulf. A lot of these homes are occupied by retirees, some of them quite elderly. I've heard stories of people in their 80s-90s attempting to clean out their homes that have had 4-6 ft of gulf water inside of them. I'm not a contractor, but I'm thinking that many of those interiors will need to be completely gutted to be habitable. With the heat/humidity down there and no A/C in many cases because those units were also under water....they'll be a total loss because even if they dry out the mold situation will be off the charts. Factor in the labor shortage, inflation for construction supplies and you have the makings of another disaster....the amount of time it's going to take to fix these homes. Many have a lot of their money in those homes....and the only way to unlock those funds, even if they decided to leave...is to fix up the home and sell it. Will all of those homes on slabs need to go up stilts now? That's another very expensive proposition. It's all very sad.

 

[fla4fun]

I will be interested in finding out what caused flooding in parts of Orlando that normally don’t flood. They were talking on the news to people in a neighborhood where the residents had lived there for a long time, some over 50 years, and there had never been any type of water back up at all, let alone flooding. But they were now under several feet of water, and I am sure did not have flood insurance.

When we lived in Pinellas County (the county west of Tampa, right on the Gulf) We were in a non evacuation zone. We had a couple close calls from storms, including one that sat in the Gulf and lashed us with storm bands for three days. One of the main storm drains for the neighborhood was right in front of our house and it could handle a massive amount of water. There was never even a tiny puddle left, no matter how much rain we received. One day, a typical Florida thunderstorm came through, and some debris blocked the entrance of the storm drain. In just a few minutes, the water was halfway up the front yard. We took some long poles and got the debris out of the way and the water went on it’s way. That was the only time there was even a threat of a flood. I wonder how many neighborhoods with standing water either have drains that are too small, or drains that are blocked and no one noticed. That’s one of the bad things about these storms hitting at night. You can’t see when something like this happens, when it might have been reversed before it became catastrophic.

I can understand areas flooding where lakes, rivers, etc. were located, especially since we had a very wet summer here. If we would have had a typical summer, the water levels would have been lower and the ground able to absorb more water. Everything just happened to come together to make this a worst case scenario. But not all the flooding can be attributed to water features that simply filled and overflowed, and I hope people in these areas can get some answers and some help so it doesn’t happen again. There is one neighborhood in Orlando that got approval to have drainage fixed almost five years ago, but there has been so much red tape getting the financing that it still hasn’t been fixed. Yep, they are now under water again. Who holds the blame for that?

I expect car prices to go through the stratosphere. There were so many cars in Florida that were filled halfway or more with water. Those cars will be totaled, and all those people, whether they decide to stay in Florida or move elsewhere, are going to need cars. That is a lot of demand for an industry that has been suffering supply chain issues and delays in production. It’s not going to be pretty, no matter whether you typically buy new or used. The same is true with construction supplies. Even if you don’t rebuild some of southwest Florida, the repairs in central and northeast Florida are going to require a huge quantity of materials.

I have often sat and contemplated where I could move and have the smallest risk of any natural disaster. So far, I haven’t found that place. I was lucky this time, but the next time it might be my roof gone, or my tree fallen on the house. I would like to find a place to live out the rest of my days without fear of storms, blizzards, fire, flood, earthquakes, etc. If anyone has any ideas, my ears are open.

 

[momz]

It's fine to have "great ideas" so let's get down to brass tacks.

So, when you all ban building or rebuilding in a certain area, can I ask if you all intend that the local government exercise its power to condemn the property in an "eminent domain" proceeding? It has to be for a governmental purpose and the government has to pay the property owner for that land. If the government just passes a law, regulation or ordinance that no building can happen on that land, that is a condemnation of existing property rights. Zoning is different. What posters here are discussing are full-on condemnation of existing property rights and that costs a whole lot of money.

I'm reading through this discussion, and I definitely see your point. What happens if property owners are unable to find insurance. I'm wondering if eminent domain will come into affect, but rather insurance companies will deny policies to these properties. What do you think? honestly, I know nothing about this, have no dog in the fight. We have tornadoes here. But I live north of tornado alley. We don't get the big ones.

 

[DLgal]

Great theory. Until we get hit by another, ya know, pandemic. How exactly are you supposed to stay six feet away from people if you're living literally on top of each other?

Let me ask my best friend who lives on the 7th floor of a 26 story high rise in Chicago how she did it and then eventually only caught covid when she was HOME visiting her parents in NJ 2 months ago.

 

[DLgal]

In normal apartments/condos, sure. But she was suggesting condensing all the people who currently live in houses, along with all the people who currently live in apartments or condos, into gigantic apartment buildings somehow. Which would make for crowding we can't even begin to imagine.

What? Where did I suggest this? Building up can mean a stacked multi story condo, attached to others. Our city has tons of these. It allows you to house several families in a footprint smaller than several single family homes would take up. Condensed living doesn't mean tiny box sized apartments. There are many ways to maximize space in a small footprint. In addition, if people would just be willing to give up yards, you can fit a LOT more houses in smaller spaces. This allows you to not have to extend into areas that should not be developed.

I live in a very densely populated city in Southern CA. And it doesn't feel crowded at all because it's a master planned city with plenty of green spaces, trails, parks, and amenities equally spread out around town so everyone isn't at all the same place all the time. Nothing is ever crowded despite a population of 300,000 in a space just about twice the size of Sanibel Island (which has a population of 6500 by comparison). You could relocate ALL the residents of that island to just my neighborhood, which is under 2 square miles. And we are considered only a MEDIUM DENSITY housing development. It can be done. People need to be open minded about how much space they actually need.

 

[barkley]

Factor in the labor shortage, inflation for construction supplies and you have the makings of another disaster....the amount of time it's going to take to fix these homes.

this has come to my mind as i've heard of the initial reports of destruction. i know of people who lost homes in western u.s. wildfires over a year ago that are still in the early stages of repair and reconstruction due to delay after delay due to staffing shortages and supply chain issues. best case scenarios may have their homes done by the 2 year mark. i can't imagine with the sheer number of structures/climate impact how long it could take for the homes in florida.

 

[JLTraveling]

What? Where did I suggest this? Building up can mean a stacked multi story condo, attached to others. Our city has tons of these. It allows you to house several families in a footprint smaller than several single family homes would take up. Condensed living doesn't mean tiny box sized apartments. There are many ways to maximize space in a small footprint. In addition, if people would just be willing to give up yards, you can fit a LOT more houses in smaller spaces. This allows you to not have to extend into areas that should not be developed.

I live in a very densely populated city in Southern CA. And it doesn't feel crowded at all because it's a master planned city with plenty of green spaces, trails, parks, and amenities equally spread out around town so everyone isn't at all the same place all the time. Nothing is ever crowded despite a population of 300,000 in a space just about twice the size of Sanibel Island (which has a population of 6500 by comparison). You could relocate ALL the residents of that island to just my neighborhood, which is under 2 square miles. And we are considered only a MEDIUM DENSITY housing development. It can be done. People need to be open minded about how much space they actually need.

I live in the historic part of New Orleans. Our homes are literally separated by tiny alleyways barely large enough to get a garbage can through. And most of the ones over about 1500sf have been subdivided into apartments or condos. So I'm not unfamiliar with what you're saying. But I don't think you can extrapolate it to include everyone in the entire country, and then also only put them in places that are "safe" from natural disasters, and expect to not end up with massive overcrowding. There's a limit. That's all I'm saying. No different than how Genie+ and FastPass before it made the pathways at the parks burst at the seams--the same number of people, crammed into a smaller footprint, eventually leads to senseless overcrowding.