I won't give in till I reach the end... and then I'll start again (comments welcome)

[azrivest]

Based on it being downhill at HM Tempo and an uphill recovery jog, isn't that what you would expect? To be faster on the downhill and slower uphill? Or do you mean, "is it okay to do a downhill HM Tempo workout?" Which the answer to that is, yes.

I meant faster/slower than the prescribed pace. As I wrote in a previous post, how was I supposed to go down for 30 seconds at 9:40/mi then up for 60 seconds at 12:00/mi? But I guess here the actual prescribed pace doesn't really matter. It was the downhill effort that mattered.

Straight from McMillan's mouth:

https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/longest-long-run-marathon/

I had read that article a while back but had forgotten about it.

I read all of your posts, and listened to your podcast on Fat Man Running, and I thought what you said rang so true. Somebody running 30 minutes at a 70% effort does the same workout, no matter if that ends up being 3 miles or 6. So when he writes this: "Therefore, we must make it relative so I think talking in time is best.", but then drafts his long runs in terms of mileage, makes me doubt the plan itself. But in the end, I figure the main thing is to respect myself and follow McMillan's idea which increases gradually the mileage every Sunday. When it's time for those really long >3hr runs, I'll respect my body and see what it says.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I meant faster/slower than the prescribed pace. As I wrote in a previous post, how was I supposed to go down for 30 seconds at 9:40/mi then up for 60 seconds at 12:00/mi? But I guess here the actual prescribed pace doesn't really matter. It was the downhill effort that mattered.

Ahh, I see. Yes, the effort is what matters.

I read all of your posts, and listened to your podcast on Fat Man Running, and I thought what you said rang so true. Somebody running 30 minutes at a 70% effort does the same workout, no matter if that ends up being 3 miles or 6. So when he writes this: "Therefore, we must make it relative so I think talking in time is best.", but then drafts his long runs in terms of mileage, makes me doubt the plan itself. But in the end, I figure the main thing is to respect myself and follow McMillan's idea which increases gradually the mileage every Sunday. When it's time for those really long >3hr runs, I'll respect my body and see what it says.

The reason most plans are written in terms of mileage is that's what the vast majority of runners prefer it in. If a runner is given a schedule that says "run 19 miles" or "run 3:30 hrs" most runners would prefer it written as 19 miles. Look at the Daniels plan, most people would say it's really complicated because a lot of it is written in terms of time and that makes extra steps. But if he wants to set a duration limit for runners, then I'd hope that's written right in the plan. Like "run 19 miles*" and then the * explains whether some need to cut it off. The issue then becomes that someone might hit their peak duration 10-12 weeks before the race, and then keep running that same duration for each of the remaining peak weeks. That then pushes them into stagnation without the progressive nature of the plan. So that's where the cookie cutter plan that isn't based on his set times. So it's almost like he should have a Downhill marathon section, and then a sub-3 plan, 3:30 plan, 4:00 plan, etc.

 

[azrivest]

Seriously thanks so much once again for answering my questions.

So that's where the cookie cutter plan that isn't based on his set times. So it's almost like he should have a Downhill marathon section, and then a sub-3 plan, 3:30 plan, 4:00 plan, etc.

Yeah and this is where all my questions stem from I think. I have a feeling that the plan was built for faster runners. Just looking at the jump from the 1h30 last Sunday to the 2h+ run this Sunday makes me think faster runners wouldn't have had such a delta.



On another note, I heard on a podcast that training for a marathon is more than twice as hard as training for a half. I didn't really believe it, I figured my fitness was a good enough base after running 5 half-marathons. I am believing it today. I ran on tired legs this morning, so I guess I hadn't recovered all that much from my 11-mile run. I was able to mostly stay in zone 2, but phew

 

[DopeyBadger]

Yeah and this is where all my questions stem from I think. I have a feeling that the plan was built for faster runners. Just looking at the jump from the 1h30 last Sunday to the 2h+ run this Sunday makes me think faster runners wouldn't have had such a delta.

Yea, so it looks like the last two Sundays prior were time based (70-90 min) and then this week was mileage based (10-12 miles). For my fitness level, he gives a LR pace range of 7:17 (?!?!) to 8:32. So 10-12 miles would take me 1:13 (10*7:17) to 1:42 (12*8:32). So I'd agree that as a 1:28 HM runner I wouldn't have seen much of a jump from the last two weekends. Does he continue to alternate between time based LRs and mileage based LRs moving forward?

On another note, I heard on a podcast that training for a marathon is more than twice as hard as training for a half. I didn't really believe it, I figured my fitness was a good enough base after running 5 half-marathons. I am believing it today. I ran on tired legs this morning, so I guess I hadn't recovered all that much from my 11-mile run. I was able to mostly stay in zone 2, but phew

I'd personally say yes and no. I think the differences lie in beginning training for the HM distance and beginning training for the M distance. The training between a well prepared HM and well prepared M is mostly the same volume of work. There are some small differences in the pace specificity of the training. But by in large, if you train well for a HM, then you'll likely find yourself well trained for a M. Such that I'd be looking for 5 days per week, and something >6.5 hrs at the peak (preferably in the 8hr range). I would say it does take years and years of effort at the higher volume for it to become more normal. With that being said, there's a monumental difference between running/racing a marathon than a half marathon. It's hard to put into words the gap that exists between a HM to M. It's nothing like moving from a 10k to a HM despite a similar % increase. It's more akin to moving from the mile to the HM. The marathon just demands so much more and is so so hard to perfect compared to the shorter distances. It's what keeps me coming back.

 

[azrivest]

Does he continue to alternate between time based LRs and mileage based LRs moving forward?

A summary of this summer's planned long runs, starting from July 10th, and yes it does continue to alternate with a huge difference between the mileage based and time based runs:

07/10 70-90 minute Long Run with Downhill Focus
07/17 10-12 mile (16-19 km) Long Run
07/24 12-14 mile (19-22 km) Long Run
07/31 90 minute Thirds Progression Run
08/07 14-16 mile (22-26 km) Long Run
08/14 16-18 mile (26-29 km) Long Run with Downhill Focus
08/21 14-16 mile (22-26 km) Fast Finish Long Run with the last 4 to 6 miles (7-10 km) at Goal Marathon Pace or faster
08/28 90 minute Thirds Progression Run
09/04 16-18 mile (26-29 km) Fast Finish Long Run with the last 6 to 8 miles (10-13 km) at Goal Marathon Pace or faster
09/11 18-20 mile (29-32 km) Long Run

and after that starts the taper until my marathon on Oct 2nd.

I like the progressive aspect of it, especially if you say that I should aim to continue increasing to not stagnate.

 

[DopeyBadger]

A summary of this summer's planned long runs, starting from July 10th, and yes it does continue to alternate with a huge difference between the mileage based and time based runs:

07/10 70-90 minute Long Run with Downhill Focus
07/17 10-12 mile (16-19 km) Long Run
07/24 12-14 mile (19-22 km) Long Run
07/31 90 minute Thirds Progression Run
08/07 14-16 mile (22-26 km) Long Run
08/14 16-18 mile (26-29 km) Long Run with Downhill Focus
08/21 14-16 mile (22-26 km) Fast Finish Long Run with the last 4 to 6 miles (7-10 km) at Goal Marathon Pace or faster
08/28 90 minute Thirds Progression Run
09/04 16-18 mile (26-29 km) Fast Finish Long Run with the last 6 to 8 miles (10-13 km) at Goal Marathon Pace or faster
09/11 18-20 mile (29-32 km) Long Run

and after that starts the taper until my marathon on Oct 2nd.

I like the progressive aspect of it, especially if you say that I should aim to continue increasing to not stagnate.

Alright, so you're aiming for 7:21 min/km (slow side is better). McMillan and my's LR pace is equal (my calc also says 7:21 min/km for a 2:16:20 HM runner). You can go as slow as a 9:00 min/km and still be reaping benefits. I also think you should aim for the low side of every km window he gives (so 8/21 should be 22 km with 7 km at GMP). So that's going to be translated to something like this for durations:

7/10 - 80 min
7/17 - 128 min
7/24 - 139 min
7/31 - 90 min
8/7 - 161 min
8/14 - 191 min
8/21 - 157 min w/ FF
8/28 - 90 min
9/4 - 185 min w/ FF
9/11 - 210 min

The jump you saw from 7/10 to 7/17 was definitely the most aggressive. It's definitely progressive and if you use 180 min as a cutoff there's only a few runs over. Additionally if you go back to his blog post, McMillan's recommendation is to do 4:45 minus 30 min, or 4:15 hr long run. Based on the above, you won't come close to that (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion). Even with a projected 4:45 finish, I wouldn't necessarily recommend aiming for that. Rather a sub-5 is better to aim at. The 90 min runs are appropriate as recovery weeks.

I'd say as long as you don't see a fade, then keep on keeping on. If you see a fade during a LR (something like 20 sec/km) not attributed to change in weather or course elevation, then it's time to call an end to the workout. If you see a fade in two runs within a 1-2 weeks time, then raise the red flag and be ready to pivot.

 

[GollyGadget]

On another note, I heard on a podcast that training for a marathon is more than twice as hard as training for a half. I didn't really believe it, I figured my fitness was a good enough base after running 5 half-marathons. I am believing it today

I'd agree that it's more difficult but not more than twice as difficult. However, that totally depends on your training plans for each. If you went from Galloway half training to Hanson marathon training it probably is more than twice as hard. What surprised me the most about the marathon is how important the training actually is. You can't fake it through a marathon the same way that you can slide through a half with minimal training.

 

[azrivest]

Week 6 of 16 of my first-ever marathon training plan! My only goal is to finish, but the marathon does have a 5:30 time limit

Another hot summer week, like a lot of other runners in NA. I've been doing all of my weekday runs early. I try to be out the door at the latest at 6am. It helps, since the sun isn't fully up yet.

I was a volunteer all day Saturday at the junior track&field provincial competition being held in my city. It was so great to see all those 14-17yo kids competing. I was assigned the sign-up tent which really wasn't too bad. At least I was sitting and in the shade. I was able to glimpse all different kinds of events from pole vaulting to the 100m to the 3000m. I was supposed to volunteer again this afternoon (Sunday), but seeing how tired I was after being there for 8 hours, I figured there was no way I could after today's long run. So I'll be going back for the whole day Monday instead.

This week was the last week of the "Stability" phase of McMillan's Strength in Stride program. I'll be moving to the "Strength" phase next week.

Monday

• Off

Tuesday

• 30-45 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 35:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 5.51 km ~ 39:59 (7:15 min/km)
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 1 - Stability Program A
  • Completed: 10:47
• I moved my yoga from Thursday noon to Tuesday mornings. I am just thinking of dropping yoga altogether during marathon training. Some parts of the class are good for mobility, stretching and overall body strengthening. But after 40 minutes of running + 10 minutes of strength training, I just didn't have it in me to hold Downward Dog or Chaturanga for 2 minutes.

Wednesday

• Recovery Day (Off, Cross-Train or Optional Run)
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 4.17 km ~ 30:42 (7:21 min/km)

Thursday

• Steady State Run
• Planned: 6 mi @ 6:09-6:25 min/km
  • 1 mile WU
  • 4 miles at HM pace (10:20 - 10:48 /mi, adjusted for the T+D)
  • 1 mile CD
  • Completed: 9.7 km ~ 1:06:43 (6:52 min/km)
• I was DREADING this workout. Like, how on earth am I going to maintain that pace for 4 miles, considering how hot and humid it is outside? T+D at start was 147 at 5:00 am. Seriously? I had to run super early since I had a work call at 8:00 am.
  I was looking at Strava before leaving and I noticed Billy posted his pace adjustments for his own run, so I added ~5% to my planned pace.
  Well considering, I think I did great. And I was actually a bit fast based on those paces adjusted for the T+D. I figured I wouldn't have the energy to do my strength training after my run, but I did!
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 1 - Stability Program B
  • Completed: 10:47

Friday

• Off

Saturday

• 30-45 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 35:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 4.91 km ~ 34:59 (7:07 min/km)
• Planned: Running Form Drills
  • Completed: Skipped
• I skipped my drills after my run cause I was in a bit of a hurry to get to the competition.

Sunday

• 12-14 mile (19-22 km) Long Run
• Planned: 13 mi @ 6:36-7:21 min/km
  • Completed: 20.31 km / 12.6 mi ~ 2:39:04 (7:50 min/km)
  • Total elapsed time was 3:15, so that pace is a bit cheated. I was with my running group and we took quite a few rest breaks.
• Eeeesh. Not easy at all today. And looking at the T+D makes me think it was even more brutal than I felt.
• T+D at start was 76+67
• T+D at end was 81+69
• I should have cut this run a bit earlier and not go past 2h30 of running, but I was bent on reaching that 20k. But still I'm so proud of myself that I persevered. I worked on my mental game especially today. After mile 9 my legs were lead. I put myself in the mindset how it must feel at mile 20-23 of a real marathon. And I kept going.

Next week is luckily a shorter long run planned, capped at 1h30. We'll be out of town and that'll make it so much easier for me to go running while the kids are waiting in the hotel room if the run isn't 2h-2h30.


Happy running!

 

[HangWithMerida]

You’re doing great! It is a hard time of year to be putting in that type of mileage.

 

[azrivest]

Week 7 of 16 of my first-ever marathon training plan! My only goal is to finish, but the marathon does have a 5:30 time limit

I moved to the "Strength" phase of McMillan's Strength in Stride program. And I basically hate it. The exercices are meant to built (upper-body) strength yeah, but they neglect the aspects of my strength training I really need to work on, like my glutes and my hamstrings. I can already feel the twinge in my left medial glute come back after being good for a month. So I'll add in some of my own exercices.

Program A does:
- Goblet Squats
- Split squats
- Paloff press
- Chek press
- Plank rollout

Program B does:
- Romanian deadlift (I basically felt no workout whatsoever doing this)
- Hip Thrusters
- Bent over row (same, my weights are not heavy enough for this)
- Pushups on stability ball
- Jack knifes on stability ball

Overall good for my arms and my core, but I don't feel it's a total body workout. McMillan Running promotes this as a complete workout program for runners, but I ain't convinced.

We had a follow-up appointment with our daughter's neuropsychologist on Wednseday afternoon and the result was not good at all. She was diagnosed with ADD, which was only a formality as we've known this for many years. But more than that, they're suggesting my daughter be held back a year, since she's not learning at the rhythm she should be. Quite a gut punch. I was in no mood to go running the next morning.

We had a weekend vacation in Ottawa. @striker1064: we took the kids to see Hamilton yesterday afternoon. It was our first show since COVID. I almost cried I was so happy. My kids, not so much. The almost 3 hours of showtime was too long and the story too complicated for them to follow. You can't expect two 7 & 10 yo Canadian children to understand the American Revolution unfortunately. At least we had box seats, so we weren't squeezed in with long rows of other spectators and they could move around a bit during the show. The actors were all amazing, but the one playing Aaron Burr doubly so.

As I wrote, I'm starting to get fatigued. As Billy and FFigawi wrote, I'm probably overdoing it a bit. My easy runs never feel that easy. The training plan paces were calculated using my previous HM result, but it's too fast based on my expectations for the marathon. So I'm going to dial the pace back in August, with more heat waves coming and our vacation to Universal later in the month. It's getting into the thick of marathon training and my main goal is to reach the starting line feeling good.

Monday

• Off

Tuesday

• 50-60 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 55:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 7.52 km ~ 55:00 (7:18 min/km)
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 2 - Strength Program A
  • Completed: 12:25
• Skipped yoga.

Wednesday

• Recovery Day (Off, Cross-Train or Optional Run)
• Planned: 30:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 4.23 km ~ 30:02 (7:06 min/km)
• Even though I hit the planned pace pretty much, I was dead tired after this one. And then we had that follow-up appointment with our daughter's neuropsych. So overall a bad day.

Thursday

• Hill Strides
• Planned:
  • 20-min WU
  • 8 to 10 times 15-30 seconds on a moderately sloped downhill (1-2% downhill grade) at half-marathon effort with the jog back up the hill as recovery
  • 20-min CD
  • Completed: 6.89 km ~ 52:01
• Did this run late at night since I didn't want to run in the morning. It went pretty well overall.
• I'm just now seeing the 8-10 X 15-30 secs. My watch had me doing 8 reps @ 9:31 - 9:51 /mi for 30 seconds so I did 8 reps for 30 seconds.
• My downhill paces : 10:11, 9:22, 9:17, 7:13, 9:12, 9:03, 9:12, 8:08
• Using everyone's advice on the main Running thread, I concentrated on keeping in zone 2 for the WU/CD.
• Planned: Strength in Stride Phase 1 - Stability Program B
  • Completed: 8:16

Friday

• Off

Saturday

• 30-45 minute Easy Run
• Planned: 35:00 @ 6:34-7:05 min/km
  • Completed: 5.25 km ~ 37:24 (7:07 min/km)
• Running Form Drills seem to be a thing of the past
• I went running in a waterfront park since we were out-of-town. Really pretty. Only thing is I forgot my headphones at home. Running without music or podcasts is soooo booooring. Ugh. All I can think of "How much time is left?" "This is so hard. When am I done?". But with the glorious running temperatures, I was able to keep pace, and my HR stayed in z2.

Sunday

• Thirds Progression Run
• Planned: 30:00 @ 11:33-12:22/mi + 30:00 @ 10:35-11:24/mi + 30:00 @ 9:54-10:20/mi
  • Completed: 30:00 @ 12:40/mi + 30:00 @ 11:21/mi + 22:38 @ 10:08/mi
• I went running on the pathway around the Rideau Canal, which if you know Ottawa is a terrific place for running or cycling.
• The first 30 minutes felt brutal. My legs were lead and I was seriously pondering turning around and going back to the hotel.
• The second 30 minutes felt much better. Picking up the pace was actually easier.
• I didn't finish the last 30 minutes. I held the pace, but after 22 minutes I couldn't take it anymore.

According to the coach notes in Final Surge, this week is "another "down" week so reduce your training load so you can rest up for the next block of training." I'll take it.

Happy running!

 

[SheHulk]

Sending strength and solidarity to you on your daughter's issues. The most important thing is that you are on it and addressing her needs. I know it must be very hard to hear something like a recommendation to hold your kid back a year. Not saying you should do it or not, but having a kid with a lot of developmental differences, who is now in college, hopefully you'll look back on this time as just a bump in the road whether you make the decision to follow the recommendation or not. As you have probably found, running is a great way to burn off some stress. Maybe that's why you're running too hard!

 

[DopeyBadger]

 

[striker1064]

You can't expect two 7 & 10 yo Canadian children to understand the American Revolution unfortunately.

Haha, every time I hear of Hamilton touring outside the US I wonder how that goes. Obviously it's a cultural phenomenon, but it's set at a very specific period in US history. I find particular amusement in the West End version! Glad you got to see it!

Sending you lots of good thoughts and positive vibes!

 

[GollyGadget]

Dink here so I can't even pretend to understand your current situation but I'm wise enough to know it takes a minute to catch your breath after a punch to the gut. So take some time, regain your breath, and make a plan forward. You got this

 

[flav]

Sending you encouraging thoughts. Also you are doing amazingly well with your training, celebrate each step you take P’tit train va loin

 

[SharonRunsDisney2023]

DopyBadger ..... would you be interested in creating a training plan for me? I am a newbie and signed up to walk the Disney 2023 1/2 marathon. I am on week 2 of the Galloway plan, but am a bit hesitant that it will enable me to finish in the 3.5 hour time limit.

 

[SharonRunsDisney2023]

Why is Temp+Dew more important than Temp+humidity?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Why is Temp+Dew more important than Temp+humidity?

It's an interesting twist on the conversation, because usually the question is why dew point instead of humidity. Humidity can be deceiving as a stand-alone value. Two runs can have 90% humidity levels but be vastly different conditions. A temp of 40F with 90% humidity feels way better than 80F with 90% humidity. Two runs that have a dew point of 70F or two runs with a dew point of 40F are going to be more distinguishable. The 40F dew point is going to be a good running day under most temp conditions. A 70F dew point is going to be bad running conditions under most conditions. The Temp in combination with the dew point helps define how bad a 70F dew point is or how ideal a 40F dew point is.

But what you're asking is why not combine Temp+humidity into a single value like we do for Temp+Dew. In theory it should also be possible. Whether a Temp+Dew of 150, whether it's 80F temp + 70F dew or 90F temp + 60F dew, are exactly equal is debatable, but they're close in how they effect your body (this is isolating these two values and ignoring solar radiation). I've seen this with my own personal data that more often than not, 150 is 150 and requires a 4.5% adjustment regardless of how it was composed. But more often the comparison that is best made is that 150 is way worse than 120, and 170 is way way worse than 150. Meaning the bodies response to the change in T+D is not linear, and a difference in these values creates a significantly different response.

What I don't have data on, is whether a 80F temp + 70% humidity (150 value when treating the % not as a %) and 90F temp + 60% humidity (150 value as well) are near equal. At 80F with 70% humidity, that's a T+D of 150 as well (70% humidity at 80F is 70 dew point) and 90F with 60% humidity, that's a T+D value of 165 (60% humidity at 90F is 75 dew point). So the T+H are equal at 150 each, but the T+D is 150 vs 165. My personal data would say that these T+H values, despite being equal, are going to produce vastly different body responses. That very well may be why T+D is a more preferred method over T+H. Because with T+D, a 150 is a comparable value despite how it's come to be, and a T+H value of 150 has a vastly different response depending on how it's come to be. Presumably a higher T+H value will yield less ideal conditions than a low T+H value, but if the values themselves are less comparable depending on how they came about, then it disrupts the ability to use it as a means to predict/change goal pacing.

 

[azrivest]

I also read that humidity levels can be misleading, since hot air can absorb more humidity than cold air. So when temperatures rise during the day, the humidity in the air can increase. Whereas the dew point is more stable.

 

[striker1064]

I also read that humidity levels can be misleading, since hot air can absorb more humidity than cold air. So when temperatures rise during the day, the humidity in the air can increase. Whereas the dew point is more stable.

This is correct. % humidity is a measure of the ratio of actual water vapor against the water capacity of the air. This is misleading because cooler air always has a lower capacity than warmer air. % humidity is always at or near 100% in the morning hours (because during the night the air stagnates) despite that often feeling like the best time to run. During the summer, % humidity drops as the day goes on and the air temperature rises (because the actual water capacity of air increases with temperature). However, if you only relied on % humidity, you'd wonder why it feels so much more humid mid-day than it does in the morning - this is where dew point becomes useful.

Additionally, during the cold winter months, the average % humidity is usually very high because the capacity of cold air is much lower, but dew points of 40F or lower tell you that it's very comfortable.