I need some advice, serious problem (update 05/05/09)

[Dean]

I read that the owner pledged a reasonable effort to cancel a reservation in a timely manner if that situation arose.

The contract clearly says the renter will not be penalized if the owner is not penalized. All the gibberish in the contract about re-renting, and how much the renter would recover, etc, etc, seems to only pertain to a situation where there were restrictions on the owner's use of the points as a result of the cancellation.

If the ressie were canceled > 31 days out and the points were still fully usable/bankable, I'd say the OP has a good case for a full refund. (Mind you, I would never rent points using this contract, but that does appear to be what the contract says.)

The difficulty, of course, is the possibility of banked/borrowed points being used...which the renter would have no way of knowing, either going into the contract or if told that was the case after problems developed. An unscrupulous owner could hide behind that, and the renter would not be able to prove otherwise.

I reread it and I'm inclined to agree with you. I was reading it the way it should have been written, that the member would make efforts to reschedule rather than to cancel. As written, any points put at risk from a banking standpoint would also fall out as non refundable.

 

[LisaS]

If you look back at the rent/trade board at the end of June you will see that she answered two "ads" offering points at $10 each. One poster now has about 30 posts and has recently become a more active member of the DIS. The other also has about 30 posts, but all of them appear to be rent/trade board posts.

Thanks Robin. I was curious if the OP rented from an established DISboard member or if she was contacted via the email address she posted in her R/T board posts by someone lurking on the R/T board who doesn't really participate in the DISboard community. After looking at the posts, I still can't tell. I'm not trying to expose anyone but since we often caution people here to rent from someone with a decent posting history here on the DIS, I'm just curious.

 

[robinb]

After looking at the posts, I still can't tell. I'm not trying to expose anyone but since we often caution people here to rent from someone with a decent posting history here on the DIS, I'm just curious.

I always tell people to rent from someone with a decent posting history ... one not just on the Rent/Trade board. While I know that newbies can be perfectly honest I know that I would feel better renting from someone who is a regular DIS member.

FWIW, I think that the owner is still trying to work with the OP as he gave her until late next year to use the points. There may be a perfectly valid reason why he has not returned her emails. OP, I would email again and ask the owner one more time asking about the dates you selected for your re-booked vacation. Give him a couple of days (like until next Tuesday) and then CALL him on the phone. When he answers tell him that you were not sure that the emails were going through.

 

[LisaS]

I always tell people to rent from someone with a decent posting history ... one not just on the Rent/Trade board. While I know that newbies can be perfectly honest I know that I would feel better renting from someone who is a regular DIS member.

I agree, and that is what I meant (though not what I said! Thanks for clarifying.) I would want to read some of their posts to see if they seemed to have a good understanding of DVC, so that I felt I was renting from someone who knew what they were doing.

I also agree that there is still hope that things will work out for the OP.

 

[Sammie]

Basically if you are renting from an owner involving a private transaction between 2 individuals, regardless of whether you rent from here on the Rent/Trade, VRBO, or other listings, since this is a private transaction, your only sure fire way to protect your investment is travel insurance.

I would never deal with an owner without it.

 

[JimMIA]

Basically if you are renting from an owner involving a private transaction between 2 individuals, regardless of whether you rent from here on the Rent/Trade, VRBO, or other listings, since this is a private transaction, your only sure fire way to protect your investment is travel insurance.

I would never deal with an owner without it.

This is great advice. The REAL risk to a renter in a DVC rental is NOT that an unscrupulous owner might try to rip them off. The REAL risk is that the renter's own plans might change.

Trip insurance reduces that risk with one caveat: With trip insurance, you'd better have a thorough understanding of what is covered and what is not.

Trip insurance covers only certain situations. The most common situation is a medical issue, but there are others, depending on the policy. No policy I know of covers things like changing your mind, finding out the vacation is going to cost more than you can afford, encountering a financial setback, etc, etc.

The other main issue is that trip insurance only covers non-refundable vacation costs incurred via one of the covered causes.

In the example of OP's contract, trip insurance might not pay a penny. Why? Because of all that gibberish in the contract about partial refunds, rescheduling, etc, etc. The contract is everything BUT non-refundable. If you have an option to reschedule -- but you can't work it out because of conflicts between availability and your schedule -- too bad, so sad. Inconvenience is not a covered risk.

The renter is therefore exposed to MORE risk by this kind of contract than if they had rented from an owner whose contract specified that everything is non-refundable and non-cancelable from the start.

A DVC rental requires trust on both sides, but the biggest risks (IMHO) are 1) lack of understanding of the limitations/restrictions inherent in a DVC rental (by either or both parties), and 2) the renter's plans changing for some reason.

 

[jcodespoti]

OP: Sorry to hear about your situation.

I have rented points before, and I always try to spell out everything in simple english and have simple contracts between me and the other party. As DVC gets more members, I'm afraid this situation will occur more often.

Joe in CT

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Hey everyone! I didn't abandon this post; just have had sick kiddos. The man I rented from is a Dis member but from what I remember didn't have a huge post history. I could weed through my email and PMs to find the initial contact if you would like me to.

 

[gblast123]

What I don't understand is why you didn't just post your vacation on the disboards for someone to take over?

I have found that when you get reasonably close to the actual vacation, someone is usually out there looking for the same dates.

Recently, because of some peculiar circumstance, I found that I had to cancel one reservation less than 30 days out. I had no trouble finding someone to take the reservation over, and for more than I had originally rented it out for!!

The time period that you had was long enough so that there shouldn't have been any problem in finding someone.

I have a policy with my renters that as soon as someone wants to cancel, I work with them to immediately post the reservation to see if someone wants to take it over. The few times it has happened, I either got the full amount, or more!!

In looking at your post and the various other things you have said, I think that you might have rented from someone without much experience renting out their points.

Also, I don't see that the renter did anything that was not in the contract. However, he should have responded to your emails.

Try calling him. That usually works best.

Good luck on your trivals and I hope you get to Disney soon.

David

 

[Lovemy3babes]

What I don't understand is why you didn't just post your vacation on the disboards for someone to take over?

I have found that when you get reasonably close to the actual vacation, someone is usually out there looking for the same dates.

Recently, because of some peculiar circumstance, I found that I had to cancel one reservation less than 30 days out. I had no trouble finding someone to take the reservation over, and for more than I had originally rented it out for!!

The time period that you had was long enough so that there shouldn't have been any problem in finding someone.

I have a policy with my renters that as soon as someone wants to cancel, I work with them to immediately post the reservation to see if someone wants to take it over. The few times it has happened, I either got the full amount, or more!!

In looking at your post and the various other things you have said, I think that you might have rented from someone without much experience renting out their points.

Also, I don't see that the renter did anything that was not in the contract. However, he should have responded to your emails.

Try calling him. That usually works best.

Good luck on your trivals and I hope you get to Disney soon.

David

I had no idea such a thing could be posted. Wish I would have known!

 

[JimMIA]

What I don't understand is why you didn't just post your vacation on the disboards for someone to take over?

Since OP is a non-owner, I'm not sure how viable an alternative this is. I think your suggestion is a good one for a DVC owner, but not for a renter.

First of all, the owner owns the ressie and may not want a renter subletting the ressie. And secondly, obviously, OP has zero ability to change the ressie to another person's name, handle requests, set up DDP/DME, etc.

I'm not even sure her advertising to sublet her ressie would meet the Rent/Trade board guidelines, because it would essentially be advertising something you don't actually have the ability to deliver.

 

[LIFERBABE]

I rented a reservation from a family last year that was in the position to cancel. She posted her reservation on the boards and then I was placed in contact with the owner who switched everything over.

The owner was relieved that everything worked out, because he was not in the position to help the renter and she would have lost her reservation if she had not found someone to take it over. So subbing is an option in a pinch. I was extra careful in how I proceeded and made sure everything was legit before paying in full.

Working with someone experienced is really the key. 2 inexperienced people in this type of transaction really increases the risk when a situation arises.

 

[lisaviolet]

Since OP is a non-owner, I'm not sure how viable an alternative this is. I think your suggestion is a good one for a DVC owner, but not for a renter.

First of all, the owner owns the ressie and may not want a renter subletting the ressie. And secondly, obviously, OP has zero ability to change the ressie to another person's name, handle requests, set up DDP/DME, etc.

I'm not even sure her advertising to sublet her ressie would meet the Rent/Trade board guidelines, because it would essentially be advertising something you don't actually have the ability to deliver.

I had a renter ask me if she could do this, sublet her reservation on the Rent/Trade, when she felt she needed the money back very close to the reservation. Not an issue like the OP needing to change/cancel. Just felt she was in a position where she needed the money. We had done probably a 10 month out booking, with a lot of changes during the period, and this was probably a month or two from arrival. I said no. ( An aside: I used a no refund on both my rental agreements )

Renters need to know that we are liable for any damage and charges that might get on our accounts somehow ( and they do....friends got internet in their room put on my account without anyone contacting me....I was there in another suite...no big deal at all these were friends but what if they were renters) .
You never "know" anyone but when you are completing a transaction for awhile it helps. And I "knew" my renter by communicating with her. I was not interested in going through the being comfortable process again by someone else using the room.

Thankfully, it ended up working out for her. Situation changed financially. And they had a great time.

 

[robinb]

I have a policy with my renters that as soon as someone wants to cancel, I work with them to immediately post the reservation to see if someone wants to take it over. The few times it has happened, I either got the full amount, or more!!

In looking at your post and the various other things you have said, I think that you might have rented from someone without much experience renting out their points.

That's a good policy. Is that in your contract or do you just do it because you are ultimately in charge of your own points? When I rent out my points I have a refund policy with a service fee to pay for my time and effort of re-renting the points.

Try calling him. That usually works best.

I totally agree.

 

[Terri2007]

The other main issue is that trip insurance only covers non-refundable vacation costs incurred via one of the covered causes.

In the example of OP's contract, trip insurance might not pay a penny. Why? Because of all that gibberish in the contract about partial refunds, rescheduling, etc, etc. The contract is everything BUT non-refundable. If you have an option to reschedule -- but you can't work it out because of conflicts between availability and your schedule -- too bad, so sad. Inconvenience is not a covered risk.

The renter is therefore exposed to MORE risk by this kind of contract than if they had rented from an owner whose contract specified that everything is non-refundable and non-cancelable from the start.

I rented points for the first time last week and to some extent it was a fire-sale in that they were to expire at the end of January. As such, my contract read that the agreement was non-refundable and non-cancellable.

As I was drafting, I contemplated the other possibility - renting points were there is no rush and you have the vast majority of your use year. I have come to some general conclusions -

IMHO the simpler the better. Do not raise expectations such as "member making reasonable attempts to re-rent reservation" - what is reasonable? Obviously if the ressie is re-rented and the tenant regains their money and the owner gets the rental then it is reasonable. However, I think the word "reasonable" is unreasonable in a contract.

The other story is as Jim points out in the above quote. When you are talking serious dollars, get trip insurance and further, understand it's limitations. Also, the "reasonable" clause may keep the tenant from getting a penny.

I also would like to think that most owners do not want to steal or defraud anyone, but they may not be up to the task of re-renting the property or meeting additional time demands. Also, lets face it - these rentals are going for an extremely low price. Based on the numbers I saw on the R/T Board, I just rented for a week in January (studio) for $890 ($9 pp). If you went through Disney, the cost of this ressie was $2993. (Which is another thread I would like to start... why are per point prices so incredibly below market value, even at $10pp?- ) I guess my point about raising the numbers regarding rental values is that renters are getting an absolutely phenomenal rental deal/value on the R/T board - isn't too much to expect that the reservation should be anything but non-refundable?

Please understand that I am not an ogre ...when I rented my points to another family, I would be heartbroken if somehow their plans and hard-earned money was lost. I do not understand an owner who would not at least attempt to make another reservation and if available at any site - just change it in a time frame that would meet the needs of the tenant. The tenants should also be, in the event of a change, extremely flexible about what they get with respect for resort etc...

Hope this doesn't sound too disjointed. This board is fantastic. You all are a superb resource with great, reasoned points of view.

Also to the OP - I am sorry you have had difficulty both in your life as well as with your rental. Hope it all works out for you and your family..

 

[LisaS]

What I don't understand is why you didn't just post your vacation on the disboards for someone to take over?

A reservation for rent cannot be posted on the Rent/Trade board until 30 days from check in. If there were no takers and the reservation was cancelled so as not to lose the points, the points would go into the holding account. Based on the contract, the owner could argue that the OP was not entitled to a refund because the points were subject to holding account restrictions. So while it's possible the reservation could have been re-rented, there is a risk in waiting until 30 days from check in to find out.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Hey everyone. I wanted to pop back on and give you an update so you wouldn't think I was rude. I never have gotten any sort of response. I took all of your suggestions and tried to contact him again. I sent a couple emails and then left two phone messages over the last months, evenly spaced out so he wouldn't think I was badgering him or something. Even if he couldn't re-rent the points, I just don't think a phone call, letter or email is out of the question. *sigh* I'm just so sad over this all. I know it's my fault that I had to cancel, 100%. I just wish there was someway to reschedule or get a portion of the $1000+ money back. I guess not and have learned my lesson. Thanks to all of you bright people for all of your wonderful advice and insight. One question though. Disney did request that I provide the owner's name and information. I have not done so. Should I? Or would that just seem spiteful? I don't want to make waves.

 

[Dean]

Disney did request that I provide the owner's name and information. I have not done so. Should I? Or would that just seem spiteful? I don't want to make waves.

I would, it seems to be a reasonable request at this point. And while they have no obligation, I wouldn't be surprised if they did contact the member on your behalf.

 

[robinb]

Hey everyone. I wanted to pop back on and give you an update so you wouldn't think I was rude. I never have gotten any sort of response. I took all of your suggestions and tried to contact him again. I sent a couple emails and then left two phone messages over the last months, evenly spaced out so he wouldn't think I was badgering him or something. Even if he couldn't re-rent the points, I just don't think a phone call, letter or email is out of the question. *sigh* I'm just so sad over this all. I know it's my fault that I had to cancel, 100%. I just wish there was someway to reschedule or get a portion of the $1000+ money back. I guess not and have learned my lesson.

Have you contacted anyone from the DIS to intervene for you? I know that sometimes they will get involved in issues like this.

One question though. Disney did request that I provide the owner's name and information. I have not done so. Should I? Or would that just seem spiteful? I don't want to make waves.

I don't think that you have anything to lose as long as you are satisfied that you have explored all your options. There is no reason to protect a dirty owner and there is nothing wrong with being "spiteful" when someone stole over $1000 from you.

 

[JimMIA]

Disney did request that I provide the owner's name and information. I have not done so. Should I? Or would that just seem spiteful? I don't want to make waves.

I agree with Dean. If you are out $1,000, I wouldn't worry about what anyone thinks.

I would not expect the DIS to jump into this. They've always been quite clear that their role was to provide a free service -- not to be the rental police or some kind of arbitration board to resolve disputes. It's important to keep in mind that the DIS mods give their own time to make these boards possible. I don't think it's realistic to expect them to police private transactions between DIS members.