I need some advice, serious problem (update 05/05/09)

[Lovemy3babes]

Hi DVC members. I'm hoping you can give me some sound advice. Way back in June, I posted on the rent/trade board, looking for accommodations. After a some back & forth, a very nice man emailed me and we set up an agreement. He gave me an excellent deal because the first time, he had misquoted me on points I would need to use. This vacation was supposed to take place from 11/11/-11/17. And here I sit at home. I paid up front half of the money and then the other half a week later when they faxed me a copy of my reservation. I never received a real, hard copy.

I signed a contract and this is what it says as far as cancelling/rescheduling:
If Renter wishes to cancel the reservation, Member will make reasonable efforts to assist Renter to cancel the reservation on a timely basis. Cancellation must take place 31 days or more in advance of arrival to avoid penalties. Renter will be repaid for any points that are not subject to any restrictions and are returned to their original Disney Vacation Club status and use year. Points that are in holding accounts, or are subject to banking or borrowing restrictions or are permanently transferred outside of the Disney Vacation Club resort collection are repaid only if Member can rent them and only to the extent of any rental payments received by Member for such points up to and not to exceed the amounts paid by Renter. Member shall deduct any nonrefundable fees or costs incurred by Member prior to returning any monies due to Renter. Member shall return any monies due to Renter via PayPal or certified check within 5 business days of the date that such determination is made.

I had some very catastrophic happen in my life in July. I emailed this man and his wife immediately and let them know I needed to cancel or reschedule. They were sympathetic at first. Since then, really nothing. I have emailed over 20 times probably. Each time I am more than friendly and am just asking for a refund or a rescheduled vacation. He has responded a couple times saying that he needs to try and rent it to someone else (this was before the vacation), etc, etc. But again, nothing. When I asked about a reschedule vacation (this was in October) he responded with a date I would need to travel by so I thought we were getting somewhere. I responded with a few possible weeks and again, nothing. No response for over a month. I have called and left a few messages. I have mailed a copy of the contract and highlighted the cancellation policy.

I called Disney the other day. They said there was nothing they could do money wise but really wanted his name and information. I felt so guilty and like I didn't to get anyone in trouble that I said I would call back later and hung up. I haven't called back. I am so not a trouble maker. I am honest. I have three children who want to see DisneyWorld again sometime. What more can I do? Anything? Any advice? I did call Old Key West last week and verified my ressie was cancelled and it was. So this means he got his points back, right? Everything seemed on the up and up. I feel really duped.

 

[tomandrobin]

First off, sorry to read that you could not make your trip.

Unfortunately, this is the bad side of enting points. Every couple of months a horror story is posted by a renter getting stiffed or short changed. It seems for your post that you made every effort to cancel/change your reservation. Hopefully, this will work out for you.

Personally, as a rentor (not DVC) I have a no refund policy. That doe not mean I am heartless, just that I take this a permanent transaction.

Karma...What goes around, will come around.

 

[LIFERBABE]

When I asked about a reschedule vacation (this was in October) he responded with a date I would need to travel by so I thought we were getting somewhere. I responded with a few possible weeks and again, nothing. No response for over a month. I have called and left a few messages. I have mailed a copy of the contract and highlighted the cancellation policy.

What were the dates he told you to travel by? That was probably his UY expiration.

I too think this was a very unfortunate set of circumstances that left you both in a bad situation.
Availability has been tight for the last 6 months, almost gridlocked and if you tried to get any reservation in October or later I can see where he may not have been able to put one together for you. Maybe this could have been communicated more clearly, but I do not think this was a case of someone setting out to defraud you, just bad timing and he could have done everything perfect and you would have still lost your reservation and money because of the way DVC is set up.
For those renting, please understand this contract states that every "reasonable effort" will be made and "Renter will be repaid for any points that are not subject to any restrictions and are returned to their original Disney Vacation Club status and use year".
As members, when a reservation is cancelled it can be extremely difficult to rebook.
I hope you both find resolution

 

[Deb & Bill]

... I did call Old Key West last week and verified my ressie was cancelled and it was. So this means he got his points back, right? Everything seemed on the up and up. I feel really duped.

All it really means is that the reservation was cancelled in your name. It doesn't mean he got his points back. It may mean that he is not able to use the points if he couldn't get anyone else to rent the reservation at the price you agreed to. He may have had to fire sale them to recoup what you would have paid him for the remaining price of the rental.

 

[JimMIA]

Unfortunately, this is the bad side of enting points. Every couple of months a horror story is posted by a renter getting stiffed or short changed.

I follow rental threads -- and especially rental problems -- pretty closely, and my experience is that this statement is WAY off the mark.

There are thousands of DVC rentals each year, and we almost never hear about a non-owner renting a ressie having a problem.

In fact, in the entire history of the DIS Rent/Trade board, I only remember one person who ripped anyone off. Unfortunately, she victimized several people, but she's the only crook I've heard of. Doc has much more knowledge and experience with this than I, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I only know of that one problematic person.

 

[tor]

All it really means is that the reservation was cancelled in your name. It doesn't mean he got his points back. It may mean that he is not able to use the points if he couldn't get anyone else to rent the reservation at the price you agreed to. He may have had to fire sale them to recoup what you would have paid him for the remaining price of the rental.

Wether or not he got the points back there is an obligation to respond to the purchaser

 

[JimMIA]

I hope this works out for you, but there are a couple of things you need to understand.

One is that the transaction you entered into is strictly between you and the owner you rented from. Disney has neither the ability nor any interest in helping you. The owner you rented from, after all, is a direct competitor to Disney.

The other thing you need to understand is that none of us can do anything but speculate unless you provide the exact dates of when you notified the owner of your need to cancel, when they actually canceled, and when they told you the points had to be used by.

You have two potential issues there, and noone can give you any sensible feedback without knowing those dates.

If you post the specifics, we will try to help you and the owner resolve this, but in the end, it's up to the two of you to work out. We can offer suggestions and opinions to help you better understand the situation, but that's all we can do.

 

[JimMIA]

I feel really duped.

There is nothing in anything you've posted so far that sounds like you've been duped.

The rental sounds like a legitimate rental that went bad because of the issue you were dealing with, and then the owner couldn't fix it. It sounds like they have been trying to help you, but there are a number of situations in which the owner's ability to help can be severely limited. If that's the case, there may still be a resolution possible.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I let the owner know of the situation on 8/8/07. I have no idea of when he cancelled it through Disney. He said the the date I would have to travel by would be 9/30/08.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Wether or not he got the points back there is an obligation to respond to the purchaser

Thanks for understanding. This was my thought. I just haven't received any sort of response at all from this man.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

I hope this works out for you, but there are a couple of things you need to understand.

One is that the transaction you entered into is strictly between you and the owner you rented from. Disney has neither the ability nor any interest in helping you. The owner you rented from, after all, is a direct competitor to Disney.

Disney did explain they could not do anything as far as a reservation and money. They did however express a great interest in the name of the owner and all details of our transaction. I didn't provide them with any of this at all.

 

[Dean]

There are always two sides. As noted above, it sounds to me like the member did make some efforts but those efforts didn't satisfy your needs. You obviously don't think they did enough, I don't think we have enough info to truly know one way or another. When I rent, I too make it non refundable, just for this reason. While I'd be happy to work with anyone that needed to make changes, I establish no expectation I'd do so. I bet these were 1 Dec UY points and that many were not bankable (borrowed or previously banked). As posted, I'd say the member satisfied their legal and technical obligation but it sounds like they might could have been a little more user friendly as posted. This is exactly the reason why I've said the wrong contract is actually worse than no contract at all.

 

[Tamar]

Since you have until Sept 2008 to reschedule, I wouldn't give up yet. Keep in mind that, just like you had something happen in your life, maybe he's got something going on in his life and your rescheduled vacation is not his top priority. If the dates you gave him are more than 7 months out, maybe he CAN'T confirm a reservation for you yet. Maybe his computer crashed, maybe he travels a lot for work, there could be a lot of reasons you haven't heard back.

Hopefully you will hear something soon.

 

[JimMIA]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I let the owner know of the situation on 8/8/07. I have no idea of when he cancelled it through Disney. He said the the date I would have to travel by would be 9/30/08.

That's good news. You notified the owner three months prior to your scheduled arrival, so there is no excuse for them incurring any penalty as a result of the cancellation. If they waited too late to cancel, that's their bad.

It is also good news that they were renting right at the beginning of their UY. That means they have almost a year to make other arrangements for you. Because of the new banking deadlines, they will not face any issues with their account until May '08. Prior to the end of May, they will be able to bank any points you don't use, so they have nothing at risk.

If the points they were using were already banked into their 2007 UY, they would not be able to re-bank the points, but they still have more than a year from your notification to work something out.

 

[JimMIA]

I bet these were 1 Dec UY points and that many were not bankable (borrowed or previously banked). As posted, I'd say the member satisfied their legal and technical obligation but it sounds like they might could have been a little more user friendly as posted.

If what OP posted above is correct, the points appear to be Oct '07 points of some type or another -- could be 10/07 points and therefore bankable through May 08, or they could be banked 06 points or borrowed 08 points, either one of which would be non-bankable but still good for more than a year after OP's cancellation.

This is exactly the reason why I've said the wrong contract is actually worse than no contract at all.

Yep. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one cringing as I was reading that contract. That's what happens when you get too legalistic and technical with a contract. As you correctly point out, there are always two sides to every story, but my reading of that contract is that the owner owes her an equal-value ressie or a full refund. (Unless they want to say, "Well, technically, those points were banked 06/borrowed 08 points and technically I can't put them back in their original UY...so you're out of luck. "

Of course, that's only my opinion, and enforcing a contract is a totally different matter.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

You guys know a lot! I appreciate it. I'm still going to hold out hope. I want to go back to WDW!!!

 

[LisaS]

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one cringing as I was reading that contract. That's what happens when you get too legalistic and technical with a contract. As you correctly point out, there are always two sides to every story, but my reading of that contract is that the owner owes her an equal-value ressie or a full refund. (Unless they want to say, "Well, technically, those points were banked 06/borrowed 08 points and technically I can't put them back in their original UY...so you're out of luck. "

I'm not a lawyer but it seemed to me that if the member used banked or borrowed points for this reservation, this contract does not obligate the member to refund anything more than what they get by re-renting the reservation. They could re-rent to a relative or friend for $1 and that would be the extent of the refund the renter would be entitled to:

Points that are in holding accounts, or are subject to banking or borrowing restrictions or are permanently transferred outside of the Disney Vacation Club resort collection are repaid only if Member can rent them and only to the extent of any rental payments received by Member for such points up to and not to exceed the amounts paid by Renter.

I don't see anything in this section that requires the member to go to any effort to re-rent them either. And if this person rented out their points due to financial difficulties, they may not have the funds available to issue a refund to the OP, even if they wanted to.

To the OP: please don't name names, but I'm curious if you rented this reservation from a DISboard member with a reasonable post count and someone who is an active participant in this community. If you did, I think your chances are good that they will try to work something out with you, or that they will at least be back in touch with you.

 

[robinb]

To the OP: please don't name names, but I'm curious if you rented this reservation from a DISboard member with a reasonable post count and someone who is an active participant in this community. If you did, I think your chances are good that they will try to work something out with you, or that they will at least be back in touch with you.

If you look back at the rent/trade board at the end of June you will see that she answered two "ads" offering points at $10 each. One poster now has about 30 posts and has recently become a more active member of the DIS. The other also has about 30 posts, but all of them appear to be rent/trade board posts.

 

[Dean]

my reading of that contract is that the owner owes her an equal-value ressie or a full refund.

I read it somewhat differently in that the member owes the effort. The question is whether they've made the appropriate effort to accommodate the renter, obviously the OP would say no and we really have no way of knowing one way or another. The other issue is at what point the renter specifically told the member to cancel, was it August or did they just let them know they had issues in August and confirmed a cancellation later. We also don't know how flexible the OP was in their expectations to reschedule. Hopefully it will still work out for the OP.

 

[JimMIA]

I read it somewhat differently in that the member owes the effort. The question is whether they've made the appropriate effort to accommodate the renter, obviously the OP would say no and we really have no way of knowing one way or another.

I read that the owner pledged a reasonable effort to cancel a reservation in a timely manner if that situation arose.

The contract clearly says the renter will not be penalized if the owner is not penalized. All the gibberish in the contract about re-renting, and how much the renter would recover, etc, etc, seems to only pertain to a situation where there were restrictions on the owner's use of the points as a result of the cancellation.

If the ressie were canceled > 31 days out and the points were still fully usable/bankable, I'd say the OP has a good case for a full refund. (Mind you, I would never rent points using this contract, but that does appear to be what the contract says.)

The difficulty, of course, is the possibility of banked/borrowed points being used...which the renter would have no way of knowing, either going into the contract or if told that was the case after problems developed. An unscrupulous owner could hide behind that, and the renter would not be able to prove otherwise.

The other issue is at what point the renter specifically told the member to cancel, was it August or did they just let them know they had issues in August and confirmed a cancellation later.

Right -- that's a key issue. Letting someone know there are issues arising is NOT the same as saying, "I can't make it, cancel now before we both end up in jeopardy."

We also don't know how flexible the OP was in their expectations to reschedule. Hopefully it will still work out for the OP.

True. If OP were trying to reschedule the trip sometime in the next two months, obviously that would be a problem. But if OP is willing to wait until the Spring/Summer, they should be able to work things out.

Worst case scenario, I don't see any misconduct by the owner yet. Hopefully a combination of patience and the owner's desire not to make DVC's Naughty List will yield a satisfactory outcome.