I have read many posts about rental rates...............

[Beca]

I think the real problem (as far as getting a fair price for points....and I am in the camp that $10 per point is too low) is that there are SOOOO many members who are trying to rent out their points. It is definitely a "supply and demand" business. When there are more points than people willing to rent those points, the price drops. I have seen times in the spring where the going rate seems to be around $11-12 per point.

I honestly think that some of this is created by DVC no longer requiring "this year's points" be returned to get a discount. Many people are buying into DVC, and cannot take their first trip home because they are poor from paying for a down payment.....OR, they are renting points from a member, buying into SSR while they are at DVC...and, their trip for the year is already gone. Therefore, they don't need this year's points, and are offering them for rent.

Now, even some of the re-sellers are encouraging (or offering) points from contracts that people are putting up for sale as rentals because loaded contracts are not going for much more than stripped ones, so it is a better deal for sellers to strip them out than sell them full. This is flooding the rental market.

As long as there are more points on the market to rent than there are people willing to rent those points, owners will be "undercutting" each other to get rid of those points.

And, the reality is....the price at which we "break even" on our points is not all the same. If you are an OKW owner who purchased at $52 per point, paid cash for your DVC and have some of the lowest dues, you are doing just fine at $10 per point (just over $1 per point in ownership, plus $4 in dues). However, if you are a new BCV owner (like me) who paid $92 per point for your most recent points, financed them, and has dues of $4.30 per point, you figures are very different ($2.49 per point in ownership and $4.30 per point, plus financing comes to appx. $7 per point). A difference of $2 per point. If you were renting 150 points, that is a difference of $300....pretty significant.

The saddest part for me is that the word is getting out, and renters are starting to "expect" a bargain, or no rental is going to happen. I really don't have a problem with owners renting for what they want. What bugs me is a market that "expects" certain things from owners. There is an assumption among renters on the dis that anyone asking for more than $10 per point is "crazy...raking it in....taking advantage"....when that is simply not the case. I hate the fact that $10 is becoming the "standard"...I hate the fact that there is a "standard" at all!! I would love to see a situation where those who want to rent for less can find interested parties, and those who want to rent for more can find interested parties. But, that is not possible right now on the dis. The reality is, a "reverse price fixing" is occurring. As long as owners are willing to undercut each other to get their points to go faster, no one will ever get more for their points. In that sense....we are to blame. The really sad part is....discounts at WDW are becoming more difficult to find. The "base" price (or standard) could very easily go up, but it is not because there is always someone willing to rent for less.

I would certainly be willing to transfer points to another member for $10 per point....it's easy and removes me from any responsibility. Plus, I really like the idea of helping out other DVC'ers. However, I think in the future, if I need to rent, I will go through some other venue than the dis....I don't like the pressure of having a low set price because of the competition. My points are worth more to me than that.

JMHO,



Beca

 

[DrTomorrow]

Beca makes a disturbing comment and a good point.

Disturbing: The saddest part for me is that the word is getting out.
I guess that I thought that the reason for the DIS forums was to share information and help each-other get the inside scoop and the best deals and "little-known secrets" on how to get in early or get the best room or to save a penny or two (There aren't many here who haven't got some advice about DVC or WDW from others). I guess this spirit only holds when it's getting a deal from Disney .

Good: I think in the future, if I need to rent, I will go through some other venue than the dis
That's exactly the thing to do. For one thing, the DIS is a group of people who are MUCH better informed about the various costs and values of WDW resort rooms/villas. If an on-line auction site has bidders who've never heard of $10 a point, then you might get a better price. Of course, most of those sites charge, then you have to arrange payment (I've heard some scary things about PayPal and larger amounts of $$$). But instead of trying to enforce a price by decree, try another site. Heck - start one!

IMHO - YMMV

 

[Beca]

Beca makes a disturbing comment and a good point.

Disturbing: The saddest part for me is that the word is getting out.
I guess this spirit only holds when it's getting a deal from Disney .


IMHO - YMMV

That's not what I meant. I agree that the dis is a very helpful place, and I love to help the very nice people here. My problem is that news of the "BEST bargain at WDW" is now being published on other sites. allearsnet now has a blurb about how you can "Stay at deluxe resorts for value prices"....a non-dvc owner is publishing this on an alternative site!! I haven't checked mousesavers, but I imagine there is probably a blurb there, too....as well as who knows how many other sites.

My problem with that is this....there is now an expectation that owners who rent thru the dis should be as cheap (or cheaper) than the least expensive WDW resort....that publicity is not something I, as an owner am at all comfortable with.

I see more and more posts of people who have VERY few posts asking if someone is willing to rent for $6, $7, or $8 dollars. The fact that they have the guts to get on a site where the going rate is obviously appx. $10 and ask that really makes me mad. The more I read the rent/trade board, the more it is obvious to me that the people who are coming to find ressies are different than they were even a year ago. More and more, I see the "bargain" hunters on there....not the people who want the chance to stay in a villa, but don't really feel the need to purchase (you think I am kidding...look at this thread .http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=966308 ). Now, I know that is not everyone....but, it is a LOT of people! Things are not like they were a year ago, and that bothers me a lot.

I'm all for helping, but I am VERY uncomfortable with the word being out on sites other than the dis that the rent/trade board here is the place for "bargain basement" prices on deluxe resorts. Something about that sits VERY wrong with me.

Maybe that is selfish in your eyes....but, that is just the way I feel about it....sorry if that seems uncharitable to you.



Beca

 

[tmt martins]

That's opens up a lot of new problems. Since the ressie is only controlled by the owner, how would you - and DVC - distinguish between my renting my points to my SIL and my gifting them to her? My son isn't DVC - so I have to wait until 2 months before his wedding date to get a villa at OKW for his honeymoon? No thanks!!!

As I think of it, your suggestion would devalue the points of DVC owners who rent - I bet that there wouldn't be many owners-who-rent that would sign up
for your DVCers Against Renters exclusionary movement!

I agree they have trouble now with the Ressies the way they are .
But they could go by the Name on the ressie not who makes them and I know you could just leave your name on the ressie.

Like I said I'm NOT against renting or the price (whatever it is you can get),I'm just more concerned about the future when things start to fill up and you have to call each day in in your home resort during Prime times.

 

[gppnj]

I think the best way to get rental prices higher is to spread the word more widely that renting points from DVC members is an option. Sometimes on the rental board it seems that there are more sellers than buyers, and the price is sure never going to go up if that continues to be the case. If we get more people looking to rent out points, it will drive the price up.

 

[lark]

So I decided to start this thread and tell you all if, we the DVC members, decided to rent our points we can also set the rates for renting, afterall Apple sets the price of IPOD's and Microsoft set the prices for the XBOX...............................

Your premise is wrong, unfortunately. Absent an antitrust violation, consumers set the prices for IPODs and XBOX.

Except in circumstances of entirely skewed supply or demand, there is pretty much one factor that sets timeshare rental rates: maintenance fees.

If you think the market for timeshare rentals is going to be affected by the value of the actual week (or points) being rented, as measured by what the villa or a similar accomodation would cost, you're always going to be misunderstanding the market. I'm sorry to be the bearer of this news, but you simply will not be able to find, except in crazy circumstances, timeshares that rent for much more than 1.8 to 2.5 times MFs. My favorite example is four seasons aviara, where a single hotel room goes for $500 a night. A 2BR should theoretically be worth thousands. Yet they rent, consistently, for $2500 to $3750 a week, even in very high demand summer weeks. Even during racing season at Del Mar, where you can't get a room for 15 miles.

What are maintenance fees, you ask? About $1700.

It's not an accident that DVC points go for $9 to $12, usually.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Sounds like the old debate board.

 

[Dean]

I agree in principle, but I think enforcement would be difficult, if not impossible.

Not only would it be impossible, it would be illegal and against DVC's own contractual obligation. Price fixing would also be illegal, however, anyone can state what they are willing to do and anyone else can do the same or differently. So bongo saying he is setting his price would be fine as long as everyone doesn't join in and agree to do the same.

 

[lark]

Not only would it be impossible, it would be illegal and against DVC's own contractual obligation. Price fixing would also be illegal, however, anyone can state what they are willing to do and anyone else can do the same or differently. So bongo saying he is setting his price would be fine as long as everyone doesn't join in and agree to do the same.

Yeah, isn't price fixing where you say, "I agree to keep my prices at x level IF you agree to do the same"? That's nothing like what's happening here.

 

[crisi]

So I decided to start this thread and tell you all if, we the DVC members, decided to rent our points we can also set the rates for renting, afterall Apple sets the price of IPOD's and Microsoft set the prices for the XBOX...............................I am sure some DVC members will discount to buy a cruise on cash or help out in a financial crisis but if we set the price for the market these arguments I have seen about "renters getting a huge break" may end...............after all we are our own worst enemy.............Therefore I am leaning towards resetting my own rate in the future if I do rent at 14 dollars a point...........................Now tell me DVC members............is that too high too low or just about right in your estimation?

I wish you all the best, but I think its too high. Why would anyone rent from you for $14 a point when they can rent from someone else for $10? If you want to do that, your best bet will be a different venue for selling. When enough people leave here and sell points on eBay because they get more, our supply and demand will change...there will be fewer people looking to DVC as a bargain choice because there will be fewer bargains and more people looking to rent points because that's where they want to stay. Fewer posts looking for people to rent fire sale points at less than $10 and more people posting that they want to make reservations now - 11 months out - and only want BCVs and are willing to pay $12 a point.

Do I think $14 is a better price - well, it depends. For new SSR owners $10 is barely covering their costs, no profit. But for OKW owners who bought their points at below $60, they are still making a tidy profit, even with the dues increase. Since to a renter, points is points (unless you are renting a reservation, as earlier discussed), as a renter I don't care what your cost is, I care about the relative value of your points compared to someone elses.

Now, if DVC owners could educate people on "points isn't points" - then we'd have something to work with. i.e. BWV owners who can rent standard view rooms during the Food and Wine might be able to get a lot more than $10 a point.

There is significant risk to a renter. In addition to the (small, but real) possibility that they'd get scammed out without recourse, there is significant risk in DVC cancellation policies when compared with CRO. And trip insurance for a DVC vacation is inadequate for a renter.

Moreover, while the Villas (i.e. the one bedroom units and bigger) are a big plus for a family over a regular resort room, the majority of renters I've watched are interested in getting a studio. There isn't a significant difference between a DVC studio and one at a moderate - particularly now that they put fridges in moderate and deluxe hotels. I trade daily housekeeping for a microwave. Personally, I like Deluxe hotel rooms a LOT better than I like DVC studios - like its worth an extra $80 a night to me. While I've found upkeep in DVC rooms acceptable, the deluxe rooms are better maintained, the appointments are better, and the staff pays better attention to you. And housekeeping IS worth something to me.

 

[snowbunny]

Therefore I am leaning towards resetting my own rate in the future if I do rent at 14 dollars a point.

In 2006, a premier season weekly preferred view 2BR at BWV would cost $6468 in rental fees at $14/point, versus $6615 plus tax from CRO (without any codes or discounts) including daily mousekeeping, the security and flexibilty of booking with CRO, and the opportunity to use the dining plan.

Most of the rental action is probably in studios where the outlay is less, but regardless, unless the owner is offering a really substantial discount versus CRO, there's no incentive for anyone to rent points from someone on the internet.

 

[DrTomorrow]

Sounds like the old debate board.

Ah, Good times, good times....

I miss the old DB - sometimes I'm just in the mood for a discussion on reclining airline seats or head tables at weddings....

 

[bongo59]

I wish you all the best, but I think its too high. Why would anyone rent from you for $14 a point when they can rent from someone else for $10? If you want to do that, your best bet will be a different venue for selling. When enough people leave here and sell points on eBay because they get more, our supply and demand will change...there will be fewer people looking to DVC as a bargain choice because there will be fewer bargains and more people looking to rent points because that's where they want to stay. Fewer posts looking for people to rent fire sale points at less than $10 and more people posting that they want to make reservations now - 11 months out - and only want BCVs and are willing to pay $12 a point.

Do I think $14 is a better price - well, it depends. For new SSR owners $10 is barely covering their costs, no profit. But for OKW owners who bought their points at below $60, they are still making a tidy profit, even with the dues increase. Since to a renter, points is points (unless you are renting a reservation, as earlier discussed), as a renter I don't care what your cost is, I care about the relative value of your points compared to someone elses.

Now, if DVC owners could educate people on "points isn't points" - then we'd have something to work with. i.e. BWV owners who can rent standard view rooms during the Food and Wine might be able to get a lot more than $10 a point.

There is significant risk to a renter. In addition to the (small, but real) possibility that they'd get scammed out without recourse, there is significant risk in DVC cancellation policies when compared with CRO. And trip insurance for a DVC vacation is inadequate for a renter.

Moreover, while the Villas (i.e. the one bedroom units and bigger) are a big plus for a family over a regular resort room, the majority of renters I've watched are interested in getting a studio. There isn't a significant difference between a DVC studio and one at a moderate - particularly now that they put fridges in moderate and deluxe hotels. I trade daily housekeeping for a microwave. Personally, I like Deluxe hotel rooms a LOT better than I like DVC studios - like its worth an extra $80 a night to me. While I've found upkeep in DVC rooms acceptable, the deluxe rooms are better maintained, the appointments are better, and the staff pays better attention to you. And housekeeping IS worth something to me.

...........the reason i know i can get 14 is because my renters know when the deal with me there is no monkey business.............I have about 7-10 people i have worked with over 10 yrs............when we have extra points.............and we have built trust....................four have already agreed to the 14 dollars................but i have no points left to rent in 05 or 06..............we are using them all

 

[bongo59]

In 2006, a premier season weekly preferred view 2BR at BWV would cost $6468 in rental fees at $14/point, versus $6615 plus tax from CRO (without any codes or discounts) including daily mousekeeping, the security and flexibilty of booking with CRO, and the opportunity to use the dining plan.

Most of the rental action is probably in studios where the outlay is less, but regardless, unless the owner is offering a really substantial discount versus CRO, there's no incentive for anyone to rent points from someone on the internet.

again no hotel room at WDW is better than a villa................once a renter experiences the villa they do not want a hotel room...............it is true with DVC members as well.

 

[pearlieq]

again no hotel room at WDW is better than a villa................once a renter experiences the villa they do not want a hotel room...............it is true with DVC members as well.

I understand you feel that way, but not everyone else does. I own DVC because it made financial sense for us, but I've experienced both and I vastly prefer hotel rooms. The average deluxe room is as least as good if not better than a studio. If I had unlimited funds I would still be enjoying the resorts.

As others have said, set your price/rent your points as you see fit, but there's no way I would pay $14 a point. At that rate CRO is cheaper and there's no incentive to take the risk of renting points. Frankly, if you're not choosy you usually don't even have to pay $10 a point.

(BTW, just an unsolicited opinion but the .............. thing in your posts makes them very hard to read.)

 

[mamatojon]

again no hotel room at WDW is better than a villa................once a renter experiences the villa they do not want a hotel room...............it is true with DVC members as well.

I think snowbunny was quoting rack rates for a 2BR villa, yep I just checked mousesavers, a 2BR villa peak season (Feb 16-April 22) would run 945/nt - 6615 a week. You'd have to add tax of course, but I think the point is that if someone was only going to get a 2 to 3% discount by renting points it would be fair to say that they wouldn't do it. The added value of mousekeeping, the security of CRO reservations, etc.

Oh, and I agree with the above poster - you might consider using punctuation. It really is very difficult to follow you.

 

[greenban]

Bongo, to answer your question, I think $10.00 per point is way too low for a 'regular rental' This is MY opinion based on MY circumstances. However, a 'deluxe rental' (400 points or so to one person) I will gladly rent much lower than $14.00, because of the ease in a large, single transaction. Hassle is why I don't (yet) rent on eBay.

Beca (as usual) is right on RE: the point surplus. I only buy loaded contracts from TTS, or 'deals' from Disney. Thus, I (GASP) HAD too many points (initially) for my needs, and I rented them off. Example: 2 years worth of SSR points with the one-time 100 point developer's bonus equalled 680 points, that I choose to use for acquisition cost reduction, I sold them for $10-$11 a point. Now that my 'bonus' points are gone, my 'real' (read as yearly) points are much too dear to rent out at $10.00 a point, I'd much rather get a 2 Bedroom on my next stay, than the 1 Bedroom we require!

Also, I like your '...........' thing, it clearly separates your thoughts, at least to me, but then again I though periods WERE punctuation, and thus a grouping of periods would thus still be considered punctuation, and I clearly abuse both parenthesis and single quotes, ..........?

-Tony

 

[snowbunny]

I think snowbunny was quoting rack rates for a 2BR villa, yep I just checked mousesavers, a 2BR villa peak season (Feb 16-April 22) would run 945/nt - 6615 a week. You'd have to add tax of course, but I think the point is that if someone was only going to get a 2 to 3% discount by renting points it would be fair to say that they wouldn't do it. The added value of mousekeeping, the security of CRO reservations, etc.

Yes, exactly - I'm comparing a 2BR villa rented from a DVC member vs. the same unit, as available obviously, booked through CRO. Apples to apples.

And I gave Bongo the benefit of the doubt by using 2006 rates quoted by CRO. If 2005 rates are used, $14 per rental point actually comes out higher than the CRO rate before tax. On that basis, the $14 rental is simply a dream.

 

[DizWacko]

I dont think there are too many people out there who would "prefer" a DVC studio over a standard hotel room in a Deluxe resort. In order for the value equation to make sense for a renter, one would need to "extend the carrot" for a 1bedroom DVC unit for the same cost as a deluxe hotel room. Or .. offer a studio vs. a hotel room in a Moderate Disney resort. And you know what? This is exactly what has been happening. I know emotionally it doesnt sit too well with DVC members, but the real world has proven this is correct.

The deluxe hotel room in most cases:

1) are larger than a studio
2) has a better view/location than a studio (in most cases, not all)
3) has daily mousekeeping
4) has 2 queen beds.
5) has a contract with Disney Company, no "leap of faith" required.
6) valet parking, onsite restaurants, room service, etc, etc

Personally, $10 per point seems about right to me, most of us can make a small profit from this.

 

[Chuck S]

I dont think there are too many people out there who would "prefer" a DVC studio over a standard hotel room in a Deluxe resort.

This is true for us, in our situation the 2 real beds of a deluxe room is superior to a bed and fold-out couch. If OKW didn't have the two bed studio design, we probably would not have purchased DVC in 1992. And while we do use 1 bedroom units we alternate between a 1 bedroom and studio to stretch points. We don't move on weekends. The positives for us at DVC are the limited mousekeeping (I do prefer that over daily service), the cost of ownership spread over the life of the resort plus dues as compared to staying in a deluxe room, and the kitchette in a studio so we don't "have" to get up and go to breakfast unlesss we want to.