I hate mobility scooters

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Oh I'm a therapist all right.
You are not recognizing the difference I stated. People with conditions such as CP usually have their own customized wheelchair or power chair.

These are not the people mobility scooters are for and not what we are addressing here.

I am guessing you are not a therapist by you lack of ability to differentiate.

Are you familiar with temporary disabilities? Just seemed you made some blanket statements without any consideration to the true need for such devices.

You may also wish to apologize to SueMN. She is quite knowledgable and experienced on the topic of disabilities.

Your last sentence was a low blow.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I wouldn't say without disabilities. But without someone else impacting the operation of the tour to the point that it alters my experience. If I took a tour of Chicago and a scheduled stop at Wrigley Field was skipped because of someone's peanut allergy I might have asked to take a later or earlier tour because that stop was important to me. Maybe I've been to Wrigley before and would choose to continue, but it should be my choice.

You need to be aware of the requirements then. Ambulatory is I on a requirement on select tours. No walking tour of MK has that requirement. All tours without a requirement for being ambulatory could *at any time* have a member in the group slowing you down. Your posts come across as extremely offensive especially when there is no policy that can justify your expectation. There is a law though that requires the very thing that annoys you.

ETaa: if a tour at wrigley included peanut exposure, they would have to disclose that for liability reasons.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

This argument has been settled time and time again. Who are the scooters for at Disney? Anyone that wants one. And it isn't anyone's business why they have one. The distances at WDW are long. Many fairly able bodied people find that a hard make. And it is quite arrogant for someone to appoint themselves as the arbiter of who "needs" one and who does not. It is also a demonstrable fact that people that don't have a scooter user in their party can get around much faster on the whole than those that do. I have had scooter users in my party many times before and been without a scooter user in my party many times. In the morning, I can be through 2 rides before scooter at top speed even gets to ride #1. Not that with everyone cutting in front of them as if they weren't even there that those on scooters are going to be at top speed much. And if it is a wait at the gate morning and they have to stop and get a scooter from rental, I can be through 3-4 rides before they can get to ride #1. That advantage keeps increasing throughout the day. So if someone gets a scooter that "doesn't need one" then they are slowing themselves down. Some rides are a bit quicker to be accessed on the scooter. But some are quite a bit longer. Many are exactly the same as scooters are mainstreamed.

Wouldn't that mean you're following too close though? If you take this to the automotive world... if you rear end the car in front of you (regardless of whether their brake lights were working or not), you're going to be "at fault".

This isn't the correct analogy. Recall the post you were responding to

katrina1122 said: ↑
Yes, I've hit people, but everyone of them has stepped in front of me and stopped.

To use a more correct analogy, when someone pulls into your lane from another lane and cuts right in front of you and immediately slams on the brakes, it is not your fault if you hit them. That's called an unsafe lane change.

I don't think the DISCUSSION has been mean spirited.

It was mean spirited from post 1. "I hate mobility devices."

Knowingly having a negative impact on another person's experience without a head's up or making arrangements for a slower tour isn't nice either. There is no ADA requirement to be nice, and it certainly shouldn't be an expectation towards someone who showed no regard for others. Also, the non-public corridors of a theme park are not a public accommodation and Disney doesn't need to provide access to them at all, equal or otherwise.

If said theme park sells "behind the scenes" or "all access" or other tours and grants public assess to corridors on such tours, then for the purpose of said tours they are indeed public accommodations.

 

[piccolopat]

The official website description doesn't specify a requirement to be on one's feet for hours, nor does it indicate that any exact number of attractions will be experienced:
https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/events-tours/magic-kingdom/keys-to-the-kingdom-tour/


Watch again. There's a person on an ECV directly ahead of her. He's moving, too. I think sure continuous use of the horn was to alert walkers that she was there and not to suddenly swerve into her path, what with ECVs being invisible and all. Maybe she was with the man ahead of her and, like all other couples/families/groups, didn't want to be separated.

I saw that as well but if the man ahead of her was with her, he was going too fast as well and oblivious to where she was. The point is that being on an ECV doesn't give anyone the right to run roughshod over others. If she couldn't keep her speed down so she wasn't forcing others out of the way (horn or not), she and her party could have pulled off to the side until the crowd subsided. When my MIL was in a wheelchair, we preferred to stay behind just so we didn't have any problems in the crowd.

 

[SMD]

This argument has been settled time and time again. Who are the scooters for at Disney? Anyone that wants one. And it isn't anyone's business why they have one. The distances at WDW are long. Many fairly able bodied people find that a hard make. And it is quite arrogant for someone to appoint themselves as the arbiter of who "needs" one and who does not. It is also a demonstrable fact that people that don't have a scooter user in their party can get around much faster on the whole than those that do. I have had scooter users in my party many times before and been without a scooter user in my party many times. In the morning, I can be through 2 rides before scooter at top speed even gets to ride #1. Not that with everyone cutting in front of them as if they weren't even there that those on scooters are going to be at top speed much. And if it is a wait at the gate morning and they have to stop and get a scooter from rental, I can be through 3-4 rides before they can get to ride #1. That advantage keeps increasing throughout the day. So if someone gets a scooter that "doesn't need one" then they are slowing themselves down. Some rides are a bit quicker to be accessed on the scooter. But some are quite a bit longer. Many are exactly the same as scooters are mainstreamed.

Has anyone in this thread claimed to be the arbiter of who does and does not get to use a scooter in a Disney park? Saying that there should be rules enforced because some people use scooters in an unsafe way or that some scooters are used by people who think that they have free reign to operate their scooter however they see fit regardless of the crowd level or impact, sometimes literal impact, on others is not the same as saying certain people have no right whatsoever to use them.

 

[L&Lfan]

A question for ECV Disney folks? Is it true that the bus drivers can refuse to help a guest park their ECV on the bus? It's been my experience that most of the bus drivers will assist the guest in parking their ECV on the bus and taking it off the bus. It's actually quicker that way especially when the guest is unused to using an ECV in their everyday life. However, on my last trip I witnessed two different bus drivers, one man and one woman, refuse to assist the guest with the ECV, saying that the guest had to get it into position on the bus themselves. One guest, after several unsuccessful attempts to get the ECV into position, actually was helped by another guest. She was near tears. The bus driver explained that she (the bus driver) has a bad back herself and is not required to assist the guest in getting the ECV on and off the bus. She only had to secure it once it was in the proper position. I hope I'm being clear. Does anyone know if this is Disney policy? It certainly saves time when the bus driver can park the ECV himself for the guest.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

I had to use an ECV during one trip several years ago after surgery. It was the most frustrating experience of my life. I feel for any of you that have no choice but to use them because I'm not sure I'd go if I had to use one regularly. I'm not sure I'd have the patience.

 

[sam_gordon]

This isn't the correct analogy. Recall the post you were responding to

katrina1122 said: ↑
Yes, I've hit people, but everyone of them has stepped in front of me and stopped.

To use a more correct analogy, when someone pulls into your lane from another lane and cuts right in front of you and immediately slams on the brakes, it is not your fault if you hit them. That's called an unsafe lane change.

You are correct. I changed my opinion later in the thread to allow for those who jump in front of a scooter. BUT, katrina1122's very next line (I should have quoted this one):

Or I was slowly going behind them while walking and they just stopped.

 

[SMD]

You need to be aware of the requirements then. Ambulatory is I on a requirement on select tours. No walking tour of MK has that requirement. All tours without a requirement for being ambulatory could *at any time* have a member in the group slowing you down. Your posts come across as extremely offensive especially when there is no policy that can justify your expectation. There is a law though that requires the very thing that annoys you.

ETaa: if a tour at wrigley included peanut exposure, they would have to disclose that for liability reasons.

I see you significantly edited your post after an responded to you. First, Disney doesn't have to provide the same accommodations during a hard ticket event as they do during a normal operating day. Likewise, an optional tour where guests are given limited escorted access to a employee area is not the same as a theme park. The list of public accommodations in title iii is exhaustive and utility areas aren't on it. I don't know if there are additional ambulatory requirements given when one books the tour. I do know never said someone who can't keep up with the normal pace of the tour shouldn't take it, I said that people should recognize their limitations and request accommodations if they have an issue that alters the experience of others. The other guests whose tour were affected by a slow moving person are allowed to express their frustration. If my 5 hour tour takes an extra 45 minutes because of one person's consistent slow pace I'm going to ask Disney to compensate me for that time with a ReAd. This is not saying that that tour shouldn't be made accessible to that person, it's saying that my experience is also important. Why should I care how that makes the slow person feel. It's reality, they did negatively impact my time.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I see you significantly edited your post after an responded to you. First, Disney doesn't have to provide the same accommodations during a hard ticket event as they do during a normal operating day. Likewise, an optional tour where guests are given limited escorted access to a employee area is not the same as a theme park. The list of public accommodations in title iii is exhaustive and utility areas aren't on it. I don't know if there are additional ambulatory requirements given when one books the tour. I do know never said someone who can't keep up with the normal pace of the tour shouldn't take it, I said that people should recognize their limitations and request accommodations if they have an issue that alters the experience of others. The other guests whose tour were affected by a slow moving person are allowed to express their frustration. If my 5 hour tour takes an extra 45 minutes because of one person's consistent slow pace I'm going to ask Disney to compensate me for that time with a ReAd. This is not saying that that tour shouldn't be made accessible to that person, it's saying that my experience is also important. Why should I care how that makes the slow person feel. It's reality, they did negatively impact my time.

The edit was not on purpose--i hit enter too early, FYI. I was in the process of looking up the policies that were not provided in the course of the discussion. And it was in response to your same post.

My only comment is that you really need to avail yourself to the requirements of ADA and what constitutes a public accommodation. I get the idea that you don't have any true understanding of what is legally required in terms of accommodations and disclosures. (Like, they aren't obligated to provide you a census ahead of time.)

While I am sure Disney may honor your request for compensation, it would be in no way an endorsement of your beliefs.

And as I don't want to say anything inappropriate as to the inappropriateness of your belief, I will end the conversation with you at this time.

 

[minnie mum]

It's a walking tour and the description states you must be able to be on your feet for hours. It was very inconsiderate.

Now you know better than to assume. A walking tour does not mean that every participant must be on 2 feet. It means that the tour travels from place to place. If it was not handicap accessible, they would have said so in the tour description.

People also need to be responsible for their own limits and request accommodations if necessary. If I pay for a 2 hour tour with 7 points of interest it's really not fair for me to only get 6 or for my tour to take extra time because someone couldn't physically keep up with the pace. At the very least I deserve a warning that my tour will be altered due to someone else's mobility issue. Maybe I have a non-mobility related disability that does not allow me to spend the extra time, and that's why I picked the 2 hour tour.

I wouldn't say without disabilities. But without someone else impacting the operation of the tour to the point that it alters my experience..

Heads up to both of you. The world does not operate solely at your convenience or to your timetable. The world is not populated only by people with the same abilities (yours). If a tour is handicap accessible, then the tour operates in such a way that those guests are already accommodated. Not everyone can walk at the same pace. Or climb stairs at the same pace. They might need an elevator. Taking a tour means you are joining a group with diverse abilities. Fact of life.

On our last tour ( and yes, I had the NERVE to go on a "walking tour" in a wheelchair!!) there was a person who delayed our tour and extended the duration by over 30 minutes. It wasn't me, it was the photography freak who just HAD to stop every 10 feet to take multiple photos. Funny thing though.... nobody else seemed to mind.

 

[cornflkgrl]

Can't people just assume that there are going to be people everywhere -- EVERYWHERE -- around them that have disabilities (invisible and visible) and that don't have disabilities and adjust accordingly. Classrooms, places of business, theme parks, "WALKING" tours, everywhere. Persons with disabilities will make the adjustments they can and businesses, etc. will make the adjustments they can/legally need to. I just get sad when I read discussions like this about people feeling angry and/or inconvenienced by someone utilizing an accommodation that is allowing them the independence they deserve. As far as the attitude of the ECV drivers, that is something different. There are mean/rude people driving ECVs and there are nice people driving them. Just as there are mean/rude people on foot and nice/polite people on foot. Post could have just said "I hate rude people."

 

[SueM in MN]

Oh I'm a therapist all right.
You are not recognizing the difference I stated. People with conditions such as CP usually have their own customized wheelchair or power chair.

These are not the people mobility scooters are for and not what we are addressing here.

I am guessing you are not a therapist by you lack of ability to differentiate.

Just looking at cerebral palsy, there is a large range of disability and need for mobility devices.

My youngest daughter has cerebral palsy, spastic quad with dystonia. So, for the non-medical people, her whole body is affected and she has both spasticity (stiff and hard move muscles) and unusual muscle movements.
She does have her own lightweight manual wheelchair and her own power wheelchair with specialized seating systems in both.
At one point in time, she used a regular walker, but she had a gait (the way someone walks) study which showed she was using 3-4 times the energy to walk a specific distance than a person without disability of her size and age.
In addition, because of her abnormal gait, we were advised by her Physical Therapist and Orthopedist that she was at high risk of arthritis in her knee, ankle and hip joints.
That is a known complication of CP because of overuse of joints.
We elected at that point to stop the walker because, in addition to those things, she has a high risk of falling because of her gait.
I have read studies and professional magazine articles about the subject, especially in regard to parents wanting their children to walk at all costs.
Standing/weightbearing is important for many reasons, so she uses a stander and a gait trainer to safely be supported during movement. We no longer look at walking as a primary means of movement.

There are many people whose condition allows them to walk during their 'normal' day, but not the 5-6 or more miles at WDW. (again, only talking about CP, although the same applies to other conditions).
I personally know people with CP who have only one side affected or who have weakness in both legs.
They don't own a wheelchair or an ECV, but do rent one when they go somewhere with much walking as WDW.
I also know some people who can walk a bit (and one who can't) but prefer to use an ECV instead of a power wheelchair, mostly because a power wheelchair is harder to transport.

I am not a therapist. I am an RN who has worked with people with disabilities for many years in Home Care, Schools and a Rehab Hospital.

I do know of people who were Home Care clients of mine who were recommended to get an ECV of their own for distance who ended up using it in their home too and ended up losing function.
In each case, it was the 'fault' of the durable medical supply company (or on several cases, the Hoverround doctor); the people were told that if they needed it for mobility outside of their home, Medicare wouldn't pay for it. But, they kind of got talked into needing it inside the house and it was very difficult to get them not to use it under those circumstances. I know of at least 2 people whose daughters were really angry that they got sold Hoverrounds that they could not get into their house or transport when what they wanted was an ECV for distances.

 

[SMD]

My only comment is that you really need to avail yourself to the requirements of ADA and what constitutes a public accommodation. I get the idea that you don't have any true understanding of what is legally required in terms of accommodations and disclosures. (Like, they aren't obligated to provide you a census ahead of time.)

I never said that the ADA requires me to be notified. I said that if someone knows they will impact others they should give the tour operator the option to make the guests aware. Having a right to access something doesn't excuse one from being considerate. Disclosures go both ways. If only accessible seats are left in the movie theater I'm allowed to buy a ticket and I don't have to notify anyone that there will be no accessible seat for them should they arrive after me. If the theater wants to find them another seat for a different show or just say, too bad, show up earlier next time, that is between them and the theater. If the tour operator tells me I can switch tours, that's between me and the tour operator.

 

[BSmithington]

She's using her horn, something someone in an earlier post requested. It's crowded, she doesn't want to hit people. I also noticed several people still stepped in front of her. What was she doing wrong?

Imagine if I walked up behind you and kept yelling "MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE,MOVE," That's what she is doing.

 

[gwynne]

Just looking at cerebral palsy, there is a large range of disability and need for mobility devices.

My youngest daughter has cerebral palsy, spastic quad with dystonia. So, for the non-medical people, her whole body is affected and she has both spasticity (stiff and hard move muscles) and unusual muscle movements.
She does have her own lightweight manual wheelchair and her own power wheelchair with specialized seating systems in both.
At one point in time, she used a regular walker, but she had a gait (the way someone walks) study which showed she was using 3-4 times the energy to walk a specific distance than a person without disability of her size and age.
In addition, because of her abnormal gait, we were advised by her Physical Therapist and Orthopedist that she was at high risk of arthritis in her knee, ankle and hip joints.
That is a known complication of CP because of overuse of joints.
We elected at that point to stop the walker because, in addition to those things, she has a high risk of falling because of her gait.
I have read studies and professional magazine articles about the subject, especially in regard to parents wanting their children to walk at all costs.
Standing/weightbearing is important for many reasons, so she uses a strander and a gait trainer to safely be supported during movement. We no longer look at walking as a primary means of movement.

There are many people whose condition allows them to walk during their 'normal' day, but not the 5-6 or more miles at WDW. (again, only talking about CP, although the same applies to other conditions).
I personally know people with CP who have only one side affected or who have weakness in both legs.
They don't own a wheelchair or an ECV, but do rent one when they go somewhere with much walking as WDW.
I also know some people who can walk a bit (and one who can't) but prefer to use an ECV instead of a power wheelchair, mostly because a power wheelchair is harder to transport.

I am not a therapist. I am an RN who has worked with people with disabilities for many years in Home Care, Schools and a Rehab Hospital.

The information and perspectives you provide on the disabilities board are so helpful. It means a lot that with all you do, you find time to help folks out there. You have made a difference as we've started our journey, and I know others feel the same. Thank you so much!

 

[minnie mum]

The information and perspectives you provide on the disabilities board are so helpful. It means a lot that with all you do, you find time to help folks out there. You have made a difference as we've started our journey, and I know others feel the same. Thank you so much!

I agree whole heartedly. Sue and the other mods on the DisAbilities board have truly made a difference in countless lives. I hope they know how much their willingness to share their knowledge is appreciated

 

[minnie mum]

I never said that the ADA requires me to be notified. I said that if someone knows they will impact others they should give the tour operator the option to make the guests aware. Having a right to access something doesn't excuse one from being considerate. .

NM. Not worth the points. Thank God I've never been on a tour with someone like you.

 

[disneyseniors]

Oh No, this is why I am hesitant to use an ECV for our next trip to Disney! So much hate and negativity. I used to be bothered by the ECV's myself several years ago and felt like a lot of them were working the system. NOW I have an invisible disease that causes severe pain without movement, and with walking such as like Disney, I am miserable and can hardly walk. I have always sat down a lot, walked slowly, gone on attractions to rest, gone back to the resort for a midday rest, and early to bed and rise. All of this to enable me to enjoy the parks for an hour or two.
I had convinced myself that I should really rent one at the park when I am doing a lot of walking that day. Only on a need to use basis. But now after reading all this, I just don't know. I am so afraid I will accidently hit someone, or someone will walk into me and get hit now. I don't know what to do. Please understand that there are people out there who need them and are resisting because of a lot of these comments, or because they are pushing themselves to their limits with their disease. As far as wheelchairs, I have severe arthritis in the hands so this is not an option. Please, people, have some compassion for those of us in a difficult situation, and I hope that you never do find yourselves in a situation where you have to rent one due to disability. No One with a real disability Wants to use one.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Has anyone in this thread claimed to be the arbiter of who does and does not get to use a scooter in a Disney park?
.

Many have pretty much appointed themselves such, whether they would claim it or not. And when called on it most will deny deny deny. Again the scooters are for anyone that wants one. So it is nobody's business why anyone has one.

Saying that there should be rules enforced because some people use scooters in an unsafe way or that some scooters are used by people who think that they have free reign to operate their scooter however they see fit regardless of the crowd level or impact, sometimes literal impact, on others is not the same as saying certain people have no right whatsoever to use them.

The fact of the matter is it is Disney, it is crowded, and people are going to bump into each other whether they're on scooters or not. And the simple reality is people have been bumped into by other walkers just as much, if not more than by scooters. But I don't see many calls for eliminating walking at Disney or having special rules put into place beyond those already in place against dangerous behavior.