I got to be the Parent from Heck today at school...

[Magpie]

First off, let me say that I adore my children's teachers. They are the sweetest, most well meaning group of women I've ever met.

But last night my Grade 8 daughter came home in a state of righteous indignation over yesterday's debate topic. The students were debating Gay Marriage (legal in Canada), and unfortunately the Anti-Gay-Marriage side made a lot of very offensive and bigoted statements which weren't challenged. Included were remarks such as, "Gay people can't love each other as much as straight people do," and that wasn't the worst of it.

I won't include everything here, as it was very bad. But the upshot was that we ended up sending a sternly worded letter to my daughter's teacher about appropriate topics for classrooom debate.

We chose not to copy the letter to the principal, wanting to give our daughter's teacher a chance to address it herself. And sure enough, today I got a frantic phone call from her. She was very apologetic and explained that she'd been offended, too, but really didn't want to say anything for fear that it would come across as if she was trying to impose her beliefs on the class. She repeatedly agreed that the topic was a mistake and that she should have vetoed it. "If I could go back and change things, I would!"

I suggested in the future that simply saying, "Oh, this is already law in Canada, so it's not up for debate," would work. She liked that suggestion and wrote it down.

She did talk to the whole class today, but it sounds like the focus of the discussion was mostly on, "We can debate any topic, and hold any opinion, but we mustn't offend people with what we believe." Which is SO gosh-darned Canadian, and not really the point. On the other hand, at least she opened the topic for class discussion so my daughter was able to tell everyone what she found offensive, and the boy who said it was able to acknowledge that he wouldn't much like being told that his love wasn't real.

So I think it was handled adequately, and hopefully my husband will agree. And also my son... when he heard my daughter's description of the debate, he offered to go and slap the kid who was leading it! Fortunately we heard him and were able to step in and put the kibosh on that idea.

 

[Tink888]

First off, let me say that I adore my children's teachers. They are the sweetest, most well meaning group of women I've ever met.

But last night my Grade 8 daughter came home in a state of righteous indignation over yesterday's debate topic. The students were debating Gay Marriage (legal in Canada), and unfortunately the Anti-Gay-Marriage side made a lot of very offensive and bigoted statements which weren't challenged. Included were remarks such as, "Gay people can't love each other as much as straight people do," and that wasn't the worst of it.

I won't include everything here, as it was very bad. But the upshot was that we ended up sending a sternly worded letter to my daughter's teacher about appropriate topics for classrooom debate.

We chose not to copy the letter to the principal, wanting to give our daughter's teacher a chance to address it herself. And sure enough, today I got a frantic phone call from her. She was very apologetic and explained that she'd been offended, too, but really didn't want to say anything for fear that it would come across as if she was trying to impose her beliefs on the class. She repeatedly agreed that the topic was a mistake and that she should have vetoed it. "If I could go back and change things, I would!"

I suggested in the future that simply saying, "Oh, this is already law in Canada, so it's not up for debate," would work. She liked that suggestion and wrote it down.

She did talk to the whole class today, but it sounds like the focus of the discussion was mostly on, "We can debate any topic, and hold any opinion, but we mustn't offend people with what we believe." Which is SO gosh-darned Canadian, and not really the point. On the other hand, at least she opened the topic for class discussion so my daughter was able to tell everyone what she found offensive, and the boy who said it was able to acknowledge that he wouldn't much like being told that his love wasn't real.

So I think it was handled adequately, and hopefully my husband will agree. And also my son... when he heard my daughter's description of the debate, he offered to go and slap the kid who was leading it! Fortunately we heard him and were able to step in and put the kibosh on that idea.

IMHO I don't think the topic was inappropriate for debate. I used to love debating anything and everything in school and can remember debating abortion in 9th grade.

That's great that the teacher continued the discussion. One of the great things about open discussions like that is that all opinions (even offensive and misinformed ones) can be brought to the table and through that discussion, sometimes opinions and assumptions can be changed KWIM?

 

[Magpie]

IMHO I don't think the topic was inappropriate for debate. I used to love debating anything and everything in school and can remember debating abortion in 9th grade.

That's great that the teacher continued the discussion. One of the great things about open discussions like that is that all opinions (even offensive and misinformed ones) can be brought to the table and through that discussion, sometimes opinions and assumptions can be changed KWIM?

I do think it was an appropriate topic for *discussion*, but this form of debate doesn't lend itself to that sort of exchange.

See, two children are partnered up to debate each side. First one side speaks. Then the other side speaks. Then the first side gets to rebutt and then the second side gets one final response.

After that the class was instructed to vote - "Don't let your personal opinions affect your vote, just vote for whomever had the best arguments."

"Best" wasn't defined. There was no guidance from the teacher regarding the difference between opinion and fact. Arguments were not required to be backed up with anything concrete as this was apparently an exercise in pure rhetoric, not in research.

The anti-Gay Marriage side won in a class vote because according to at least one child, "They had a cool rhyme!"

The students listening yesterday were not allowed to offer their opinions, or discuss the topic with each other. It was only thanks to our letter that the topic was opened to general class discussion today - which I think is great!

And hey - my daughter came home over the moon today because she got to tell everyone exactly what she thought. Apparently it was a very lively class discussion, and she felt completely vindicated.

So it all ended well!

 

[golfgal]

You were in the classroom and heard the debates? Keep in mind before you send anything in that you are hearing your child's version of the story, which isn't always the whole story and unless you are prepared to eat crow, you may want to rethink sending the letter until you get all sides of the story.

 

[mickaholic4077]

I think that someone is always going to be offended by someone else's viewpoint,so to say don't say your view because it might offend someone else is sad.

 

[torinsmom]

I don't know whether the situation was inappropriate or not, since I wasn't there, but I do want to thank you for not involving the principal before talking to the teacher. You would not believe the number of parents who will hear one side of a story(their child's) and contact the principal without even consulting the teacher first. I have had that happen once or twice. Both times, it was an exaggeration by the student and there were both adult and student witnesses to back me up. I didn't hold it against the students, but it made me feel a lot differently about the parent.

Marsha

 

[Bluestars]

I think that someone is always going to be offended by someone else's viewpoint,so to say don't say your view because it might offend someone else is sad.

I think so too. I would not have called the teacher. It sounds like she allowed the students to speak freely. The topic doesn't seem inappropriate to me.

Unless there is more to the story, I would not have had a problem with it.

 

[Sparx]

What kind of class is this? Is it like a current events discussion class or is it a regular class that got off topic on the debate?

 

[Disney Doll]

Well, I don't think it's a terrible age group to have that discussion.

While I don't agree with some of what you said the kids said, they certainly have a right to say it. And you certainly have a right to explain to your DD why you folks don't believe that way.

 

[si-am]

You shouldn't have gotten involved.

 

[englishteacha]

I teach social studies this year (in addition to English), and we do a lot with current events. I have some students (7th grade) whose families are very vocal about their views. Unfortunately, there is never any fact or reasoning behind their statements. Being 7th graders, they parrot their parents' beliefs. When we read an article about rescue dogs helping to find survivors in the Haiti earthquake, one of these students commented, "Going to Haiti is a waste of money. They aren't worth saving." I was outraged inside!! I'm a big proponent of social justice, and I bit my tongue and didn't ream him out like I wanted to (this same student said, "Someone should have shot Obama when he came to Maine."). I did address the comment. My statement was something to the effect of, "You are allowed to believe what you want to believe, but there are certain things that are not appropriate to say, and there are other ways you can voice your beliefs." I went on to say, "If you were trapped in a collapsed building, wouldn't you want someone to come find you? Would you care who it was?" In response to the Obama comment a few weeks earlier, in a private discussion with the student, I said something similar, but I guess it didn't sink in. I believe I said, "You are allowed to disagree with the president; you can think he's the worst president ever, and that his policies will hurt the country, but you will not be allowed to make statements in my class, or in this school, that are hoping for someone's death. Comments like that hurt the feelings of your classmates, your teachers, and appear ignorant. If you disagree with someone, you need to have a valid reason." In the case of this student, there is no valid reason. Dad says, "Obama's an idiot," and the kid parrots what he says. He has no idea why "he" thinks Obama's an idiot, or why going to Haiti is "bad."

One thing I learned quickly as a teacher is to redirect discussions and debates when they enter the realm of being hurtful or when personal attacks are made. I appreciate you bringing this up to the teacher and allowing her to deal with the situation.

 

[torinsmom]

I teach social studies this year (in addition to English), and we do a lot with current events. I have some students (7th grade) whose families are very vocal about their views. Unfortunately, there is never any fact or reasoning behind their statements. Being 7th graders, they parrot their parents' beliefs. When we read an article about rescue dogs helping to find survivors in the Haiti earthquake, one of these students commented, "Going to Haiti is a waste of money. They aren't worth saving." I was outraged inside!! I'm a big proponent of social justice, and I bit my tongue and didn't ream him out like I wanted to (this same student said, "Someone should have shot Obama when he came to Maine."). I did address the comment. My statement was something to the effect of, "You are allowed to believe what you want to believe, but there are certain things that are not appropriate to say, and there are other ways you can voice your beliefs." I went on to say, "If you were trapped in a collapsed building, wouldn't you want someone to come find you? Would you care who it was?" In response to the Obama comment a few weeks earlier, in a private discussion with the student, I said something similar, but I guess it didn't sink in. I believe I said, "You are allowed to disagree with the president; you can think he's the worst president ever, and that his policies will hurt the country, but you will not be allowed to make statements in my class, or in this school, that are hoping for someone's death. Comments like that hurt the feelings of your classmates, your teachers, and appear ignorant. If you disagree with someone, you need to have a valid reason." In the case of this student, there is no valid reason. Dad says, "Obama's an idiot," and the kid parrots what he says. He has no idea why "he" thinks Obama's an idiot, or why going to Haiti is "bad."

One thing I learned quickly as a teacher is to redirect discussions and debates when they enter the realm of being hurtful or when personal attacks are made. I appreciate you bringing this up to the teacher and allowing her to deal with the situation.

I think this is the important thing to remember. According to the student(and the teacher agreed in the email), the debate became more of an attack than a debate. I think of debates as using facts to make your point. Saying that gay people cannot love each other as much as straight people is not debating, IMHO. It is sharing your own opinion without any facts to back it up. And the OP said that wasn't the worst thing said. I think gay marriage could be a good debate topic, but there would need to be very firm guidelines laid out before the debate starts.

 

[shortbun]

I think the topic was fine for 8th graders. My son is just finishing 8th grade and he and his friends are able to discuss pretty much anything. Yes, they are immature but they need to hear the good, bad and ugly so they can become wonderfully enlightened adults. My son, like your daughter, is able to filter crazy when he hears it. I think most 8th graders are.

 

[wtccheermom]

I think the OP did the right thing and I also feel the topic was inappropriate for 8th graders. I also think when the kids began making offensive comments it showed that at this age many of them or not mature enough to handle this topic. Has anyone given any thought to how those offensive comments may have affected a student in that class who may be struggling with his/her sexual identiy? I am one for politics being left out of schools and churches.

 

[MiniGirl]

I do think it was an appropriate topic for *discussion*, but this form of debate doesn't lend itself to that sort of exchange.

See, two children are partnered up to debate each side. First one side speaks. Then the other side speaks. Then the first side gets to rebutt and then the second side gets one final response.

After that the class was instructed to vote - "Don't let your personal opinions affect your vote, just vote for whomever had the best arguments."

"Best" wasn't defined. There was no guidance from the teacher regarding the difference between opinion and fact. Arguments were not required to be backed up with anything concrete as this was apparently an exercise in pure rhetoric, not in research.

The anti-Gay Marriage side won in a class vote because according to at least one child, "They had a cool rhyme!"

The students listening yesterday were not allowed to offer their opinions, or discuss the topic with each other. It was only thanks to our letter that the topic was opened to general class discussion today - which I think is great!

And hey - my daughter came home over the moon today because she got to tell everyone exactly what she thought. Apparently it was a very lively class discussion, and she felt completely vindicated.

So it all ended well!

Isn't this how a debate is suppossed to work? Those of us not participating in the actual debate were never allowed to discuss our opinions, and debate is about making the best argument. I think this is a good lesson. Often people are swayed by a pretty picture or a catchy phrase even moreso than substance. Otherwise imagine how dry all the commercials on tv would be. Get a good catch phrase though and the commercial will be watched and talked about for years.

But yes, in any debate, personal attacks and insults are to be avoided, and I'm glad it all worked out to your satisfaction.

 

[Mkrop]

We had debates in senior year of HS Relgion class. Many topics were discussed and debated in the present the facts, then vote format, although the priest did allow us discussion the next day. He would assign contoversial topics and then assign sides. Somtimes you were assinged a side you truly disagreed with! I had to agrue the Pro side to Pornography. I had to state opinions and arguments I did not agree with. But the excercise was to make us think about why other people think the way they do. Did it change my opinion, NO, but I did "get" how some on the other side got to their final decisions.

 

[Magpie]

I teach social studies this year (in addition to English), and we do a lot with current events. I have some students (7th grade) whose families are very vocal about their views. Unfortunately, there is never any fact or reasoning behind their statements. Being 7th graders, they parrot their parents' beliefs. When we read an article about rescue dogs helping to find survivors in the Haiti earthquake, one of these students commented, "Going to Haiti is a waste of money. They aren't worth saving." I was outraged inside!! I'm a big proponent of social justice, and I bit my tongue and didn't ream him out like I wanted to (this same student said, "Someone should have shot Obama when he came to Maine."). I did address the comment. My statement was something to the effect of, "You are allowed to believe what you want to believe, but there are certain things that are not appropriate to say, and there are other ways you can voice your beliefs." I went on to say, "If you were trapped in a collapsed building, wouldn't you want someone to come find you? Would you care who it was?" In response to the Obama comment a few weeks earlier, in a private discussion with the student, I said something similar, but I guess it didn't sink in. I believe I said, "You are allowed to disagree with the president; you can think he's the worst president ever, and that his policies will hurt the country, but you will not be allowed to make statements in my class, or in this school, that are hoping for someone's death. Comments like that hurt the feelings of your classmates, your teachers, and appear ignorant. If you disagree with someone, you need to have a valid reason." In the case of this student, there is no valid reason. Dad says, "Obama's an idiot," and the kid parrots what he says. He has no idea why "he" thinks Obama's an idiot, or why going to Haiti is "bad."

One thing I learned quickly as a teacher is to redirect discussions and debates when they enter the realm of being hurtful or when personal attacks are made. I appreciate you bringing this up to the teacher and allowing her to deal with the situation.

I really do like my daughter's teacher and I think she handled things well by opening things up to a class discussion the day after.

We've taught our kids that they must not remain silent when they perceive an injustice being done. (This has occasionally caused problems in the class - ) But I also understand that teachers have to approach issues with more tact and subtlety.

My daughter's teacher told me she was also offended by the rhetoric used, but hesitated to say anything because she didn't want to appear to be imposing her personal opinions on the students. But now she says, after thinking it over, she would speak up - just like you described!

So I think it's all worked out well. My daughter's teacher is young, and I'm glad this didn't have to go any further, and could be dealt with in the classroom.

 

[Magpie]

You were in the classroom and heard the debates? Keep in mind before you send anything in that you are hearing your child's version of the story, which isn't always the whole story and unless you are prepared to eat crow, you may want to rethink sending the letter until you get all sides of the story.

I don't know whether the situation was inappropriate or not, since I wasn't there, but I do want to thank you for not involving the principal before talking to the teacher. You would not believe the number of parents who will hear one side of a story(their child's) and contact the principal without even consulting the teacher first. I have had that happen once or twice. Both times, it was an exaggeration by the student and there were both adult and student witnesses to back me up. I didn't hold it against the students, but it made me feel a lot differently about the parent.

Marsha

My daughter's version matched her teacher's almost word-for-word when her teacher called my to explain. So I know my daughter was being accurate.

However, you're right - if this was my son I would certainly have done considerably more investigation before writing the letter. My son has come up with some, er... interesting versions of events in the past, without even intending to lie.

But also what you don't know about my daughter is that she's in a gifted class because of having an eidetic memory. She can parrot back anything she hears, and in fact when she was a toddler her doctor was worried she might be autistic because her conversation consisted entirely of quotes from Disney movies. Instead of telling us that she was hungry, she'd say that line from 101 Dalmatians, "I'm hongry, Mother, reeally hongry!" English accent, and all! It was hilarious, but kind of weird, too.

 

[hentob]

Which is SO gosh-darned Canadian, and not really the point. On the other hand, at least she opened the topic for class discussion so my daughter was able to tell everyone what she found offensive, and the boy who said it was able to acknowledge that he wouldn't much like being told that his love wasn't real.

I guess I don’t understand what the issue is here Your daughter was offended that the opposing side of a debate didn’t share her views?

So I think it was handled adequately, and hopefully my husband will agree.

And if he doesn’t

And also my son... when he heard my daughter's description of the debate, he offered to go and slap the kid who was leading it! Fortunately we heard him and were able to step in and put the kibosh on that idea:

Thank goodness you were able to step in I couldn’t imagine wanting to slap someone who disagreed with your point of view in a debate

FYI—I am FOR gay marriage. I believe you should be married to the person that you love. I just could not imagine writing a teacher a letter saying how she should have resonded to the opposing view

 

[torinsmom]

My daughter's version matched her teacher's almost word-for-word when her teacher called my to explain. So I know my daughter was being accurate.

However, you're right - if this was my son I would certainly have done considerably more investigation before writing the letter. My son has come up with some, er... interesting versions of events in the past, without even intending to lie.

But also what you don't know about my daughter is that she's in a gifted class because of having an eidetic memory. She can parrot back anything she hears, and in fact when she was a toddler her doctor was worried she might be autistic because her conversation consisted entirely of quotes from Disney movies. Instead of telling us that she was hungry, she'd say that line from 101 Dalmatians, "I'm hongry, Mother, reeally hongry!" English accent, and all! It was hilarious, but kind of weird, too.

Oh, no, I was commending you for not involving the principal, not saying you shouldn't have written the teacher. That's exactly what I would have done, and it didn't sound like you were "yelling" at the teacher in email, just making her aware of your take on the situation. I would so rather a parent did that than to keep it to themselves, because if it upset one student, there are likely others who were upset as well and it needed to be addressed.

The little boy I babysit has that kind of memory. He is only 4 and after he hears a story once or twice, he can repeat it verbatim. And they aren't kid stories, they're books about what era a dinosaur lived in or how a steam engine works or something like that. It is amazing!

Marsha