I am beginning to lose hope...

[MrInfinity]

I find it interesting reading through this thread that people think that the magic solution to all this is just Disney building new attractions. While I do agree that Disney should have added more new attractions over the last 10-15 years, what I disagree with that it would "fix" crowd management issues. It is not like attendance figures will stay static when new attractions are built. Especially attractions built based on popular IPs. New attractions "attract" more people. It is not like they build new attractions and crowding is lessened.

This is a good point. As attendance grows, you add rides. As rides grow, you attract more attendance. You never reach a point where attractions are so plentiful that they are walk-ons. This does not even exist at Great America, Magic Mountain, etc. MM has some 13 roller coasters in the park... and every one of them has an hour wait during the middle of the day -- and these parks do not handle near the number of guests in a day that WDW/DL do.

If there was a new thrill ride nearby, everyone would ride TT and then that ride too. It's not like the average guest would pick one or the other, and thus the line would be half as long to each. Every guest would want to ride both. If the new ride does not have the capacity to get each guest on, the # of times they want, it will build up to a line. So a new ride handles 25,000 guests? 50,000 guests visit Epcot, and want to ride it on average 3 times each? Obviously do the math, irrelevant of how many other rides there are, you'll see a line here.

 

[mom2rtk]

You never reach a point where attractions are so plentiful that they are walk-ons.

That's one serious straw man you have going there.........

 

[WillAustin]

This is a good point. As attendance grows, you add rides. As rides grow, you attract more attendance. You never reach a point where attractions are so plentiful that they are walk-ons. This does not even exist at Great America, Magic Mountain, etc. MM has some 13 roller coasters in the park... and every one of them has an hour wait during the middle of the day -- and these parks do not handle near the number of guests in a day that WDW/DL do.

If there was a new thrill ride nearby, everyone would ride TT and then that ride too. It's not like the average guest would pick one or the other, and thus the line would be half as long to each. Every guest would want to ride both. If the new ride does not have the capacity to get each guest on, the # of times they want, it will build up to a line. So a new ride handles 25,000 guests? 50,000 guests visit Epcot, and want to ride it on average 3 times each? Obviously do the math, irrelevant of how many other rides there are, you'll see a line here.

Sure, but the amount of ride rationing will lessen with more capacity. If Epcot had the ride capacity of MK, there wouldn't be FP+ tiering and crowds would be more dispersed. Attendance won't grow 1:1 with added capacity.

 

[Planogirl]

Crowd levels do have a limit. That's simple math. I'm not saying that WDW has reached that limit by any means but if they are so interested in growth then I would think that luring more visitors would be part of the plan. There should be steady sustained growth and I believe that that should be at least partially accomplished by finding ways to lure more visitors.

 

[MrInfinity]

Sure, but the amount of ride rationing will lessen with more capacity. If Epcot had the ride capacity of MK, there wouldn't be FP+ tiering and crowds would be more dispersed. Attendance won't grow 1:1 with added capacity.

If what you're saying was the case, then you would conclude that the day the Mine Train opened, waits for other rides permanently went down by 33%. Because this added a 4th mountain, essentially increasing the mountain capacity by about 33%. But we're not seeing that. There is so much demand that adding a ride does not make lines shorter elsewhere. Now if you added 50 rides? Maybe. But no theme park will put in 50 mountain-style rides where previously there were 4. You would have to add rides (expense) in such extreme quantities that they exceed increased attendance (revenue). It is not realistic to think a company with a responsibility to be profitable will deliberately add more expense with no additional revenue when we're already willing to pay given what they're offering now.

I would say the opposite is true, no? Because attendance is up... for whatever reason... call it due to FP+.. or due to the new Fantasyland... or due to the economy... we are seeing longer lines, not shorter. You'd think unless attendance was up by more than 33%, the ride waits should be down, because capacity is 33% greater. But they're not shorter.

Take my MM example. At MM, there are 13 roller coasters on the thrill level of BTMRR or greater, and MM handles fewer people than WDW. Yet, all 13 rides at MM build up to an hour, which is about the same as BTMRR. Point is some people (not all) are willing to wait "about an hour" to ride these. So the lines build to that.

 

[disneyseniors]

We are Disney fans too, and last year was the first time we were disappointed in WDW. It was very dirty on the que to haunted mansion and No One was picking up the used papers, Kleenexes, etc. At every park, we encountered broken down and closed rides, Every Park. I can understand it taking longer to load wheelchair people on HM, but every park had issues. If it wasn't broken down, there were upkeep issues. We had to work hard to find the magic last time.
This year, we are going back and are going 10 days, our longest in the parks. Why? We are planning (for the first time) a trip to Universal for at least 2 days, prob 3. So that leaves 6 or 7 at wdw. We used to stay exclusively on WDW property the entire time of our vacation, but feel the allure of US with no fp+s, no scheduled adr's, no managing every single hour of our trip to be strong. I know there are express passes which are optional. I look forward to seeing characters wandering the parks and interacting with guests! I am really looking forward to our Universal days more than Disney, and this just makes me sad. I won't abandon Disney, but will change our vacation habits.

 

[Laketravis]

This is a good point. As attendance grows, you add rides. As rides grow, you attract more attendance. You never reach a point where attractions are so plentiful that they are walk-ons. This does not even exist at Great America, Magic Mountain, etc. MM has some 13 roller coasters in the park... and every one of them has an hour wait during the middle of the day -- and these parks do not handle near the number of guests in a day that WDW/DL do.

If there was a new thrill ride nearby, everyone would ride TT and then that ride too. It's not like the average guest would pick one or the other, and thus the line would be half as long to each. Every guest would want to ride both. If the new ride does not have the capacity to get each guest on, the # of times they want, it will build up to a line. So a new ride handles 25,000 guests? 50,000 guests visit Epcot, and want to ride it on average 3 times each? Obviously do the math, irrelevant of how many other rides there are, you'll see a line here.

It's easy to suggest that Disney would be a victim of it's own expansion plans like a dog getting dizzy by chasing it's own tale, but your first mistake is confusing capacity with popularity.

Ride capacity does not contribute to increased demand, ride popularity does and much like bandwidth there are principles to bandwidth management that easily address such elementary issues. Those can be researched for more information but consider that at a particular point any increased traffic manifested from increased attraction POPULARITY (not capacity) begins to load infrastructure elements external to and outside the control of WDW such as MCO, roadway infrastructure, lodging, etc. which all combine to act as a dampening effect on popularity which WDW then actually benefits from as a driver of that popularity.

In other words, Disney can do it's job but then the limitations of a wealth of other industries and entities would enter the picture before Disney could ever be thought of as not being able to keep pace with popularity.

 

[leebee]

I think requiring the use of kiosks for the 4th and subsequent FP+ kind-of levels the playing field for those without smartphones, while leaving more FP+s longer for those who are walk-ups.

 

[Cormoran]

I think requiring the use of kiosks for the 4th and subsequent FP+ kind-of levels the playing field for those without smartphones, while leaving more FP+s longer for those who are walk-ups.

I think the kiosks are another way to ration rides. If everyone could use their smartphones to book their 4th FP, the lack of 4th FP inventory would be apparent to everyone who accessed the app. The kiosks are another SB line that prevents FP's from being gobbled up too quickly. It'sa a shell game.

 

[perditax]

In the MMO biz we call it a 'time-sink'.

 

[cakebaker]

There are things I enjoy at Disney, but that does not mean that I accept everything they do without question. FP+ was to benefit Disney, MDE was to benefit Disney, Employee layoffs and outsourcing jobs benefits Disney. I'm not going to find excuses for some of the decisions they've made and I don't understand why you feel compelled to find excuses for things that even you admit are wrong. It is not required that guests pledge undying devotion to Disney before entering the parks. All Disney cares about is our money.

Hang on just a moment- You want to claim the moral high ground because I don't hold it against them when they lay people off they no longer need and when they outsource some jobs because they save money just like nearly every corporation in this country does? Some a lot worse? I'm not making excuses for them, I just don't care one way or the other.

You on the other hand care a great deal. You think they're horrible for laying off people, outsourcing, creating MDE/FP+ and only caring about money- yet you still support them.

So who's worse? The person who honestly has no issues with them doing these things and for whom some of these things works quite well and they continue to give Disney their money? Or the person who thinks Disney is doing terrible things to their customers and their employees and yet continues to give them their money?

There are several companies that I don't I like their political stances- won't get into it, the Dis is not the place. 2 of them, I love their products. I spent money with them for years- one of them is less than a 1 minute drive from my house. Great food, good service- horrible political positions in my opinion. I don't do business with these places. I am disgusted by their outlook on certain things and I won't give them my money so they can use it to further their causes.

But other than complain on an internet forum, what have you done to show Disney what you think about what they're doing?

 

[Cormoran]

Really Cakebaker, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I do have a problem with outsourcing at every company, Disney included. I'm not taking the moral high ground, but I can't be like you and say I really don't care. I do care, I'm disappointed that the quality of the Disney Company is fading away. It may have only been an illusion in my mind, but I don't think so.

I remain optimistic that Disney's next CEO will take Disney back to it's original teachings. I'm hoping that traditions training will return to a week long course and Disney will once again recognize the importance of their front line CM's.

Unfortunately, I remain a Disney parks addict and I can't walk away. I think it's more about past memories than it is about current experiences at WDW. But on this trip, I'm staying at the Swan instead of a Disney resort and I'm spending only 3 days of my 7 day vacation at WDW. It will probably be my last vacation at WDW for a long time, but I must be honest, I will still visit DLR. I have sent letters containing both censure and praise, but I've only ever received a form letter in response.

 

[Cormoran]

If what you're saying was the case, then you would conclude that the day the Mine Train opened, waits for other rides permanently went down by 33%. Because this added a 4th mountain, essentially increasing the mountain capacity by about 33%. But we're not seeing that. There is so much demand that adding a ride does not make lines shorter elsewhere. Now if you added 50 rides? Maybe. But no theme park will put in 50 mountain-style rides where previously there were 4. You would have to add rides (expense) in such extreme quantities that they exceed increased attendance (revenue). It is not realistic to think a company with a responsibility to be profitable will deliberately add more expense with no additional revenue when we're already willing to pay given what they're offering now.

I would say the opposite is true, no? Because attendance is up... for whatever reason... call it due to FP+.. or due to the new Fantasyland... or due to the economy... we are seeing longer lines, not shorter. You'd think unless attendance was up by more than 33%, the ride waits should be down, because capacity is 33% greater. But they're not shorter.

Take my MM example. At MM, there are 13 roller coasters on the thrill level of BTMRR or greater, and MM handles fewer people than WDW. Yet, all 13 rides at MM build up to an hour, which is about the same as BTMRR. Point is some people (not all) are willing to wait "about an hour" to ride these. So the lines build to that.

Disney could easily build a 5th gate and fill it with guests. But I really think they need to work on AK, Epcot, and DHS before moving forward. IMO these parks are stale, there isn't enough to keep most guests in the parks for a full day. If they added new attractions and really upped their game in the other parks ( and I don't mean in 10 years), MK wouldn't be bulging with as many park guests on a daily basis.

 

[mom2rtk]

Disney could easily build a 5th gate and fill it with guests. But I really think they need to work on AK, Epcot, and DHS before moving forward. IMO these parks are stale, there isn't enough to keep most guests in the parks for a full day. If they added new attractions and really upped their game in the other parks ( and I don't mean in 10 years), MK wouldn't be bulging with as many park guests on a daily basis.

I imagine Disney is concerned that a 5th gate would not add net new guests, but siphon guests from the parks, I'm sure they know are indeed stale. It's like they would be building (and staffing, and paying fixed overhead) on their own competition.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I think the thing is the other three parks don't have space issues. Epcot is huge, so is Animal Kingdom. DHS is smaller, but it still doesn't get that feeling MK gets on a crowded day. So the physical space is there.

I guess what I'm thinking is the ride/area ratio is much much much higher at MK than the other three parks, that means the other three parks could accommodate more rides.

Last time we were at Epcot, my kids said to me, unprompted, at the end of the day, that there was too much walking for the number of rides. And they were right IMO.

 

[WillAustin]

Take my MM example. At MM, there are 13 roller coasters on the thrill level of BTMRR or greater, and MM handles fewer people than WDW. Yet, all 13 rides at MM build up to an hour, which is about the same as BTMRR. Point is some people (not all) are willing to wait "about an hour" to ride these. So the lines build to that.

I think the lines will build to that no matter what if the parks are crowded. Where capacity makes more difference is in FP availability. The reason there are no tiers in MK is the available capacity vs. people in the park.

 

[flicx]

I think the lines will build to that no matter what if the parks are crowded. Where capacity makes more difference is in FP availability. The reason there are no tiers in MK is the available capacity vs. people in the park.

The no tiers in magic kingdom speaks volumes about what's wrong with the other parks. They need attractions! Disney opted to spend money elsewhere. Room certainly isn't an issue in Epcot and AK and there are empty spaces in the studios. I just think current management is milking every last cent out of what is there now.

 

[Cormoran]

The no tiers in magic kingdom speaks volumes about what's wrong with the other parks. They need attractions! Disney opted to spend money elsewhere. Room certainly isn't an issue in Epcot and AK and there are empty spaces in the studios. I just think current management is milking every last cent out of what is there now.

I really think this plan is going to backfire. Eventually people will stop going to the other 3 parks unless they have AP' s or park hoppers.. Why use a ticket if there's not enough to keep you entertained? I think this is another consequence of FP.+

 

[cakebaker]

I really think this plan is going to backfire. Eventually people will stop going to the other 3 parks unless they have AP' s or park hoppers.. Why use a ticket if there's not enough to keep you entertained? I think this is another consequence of FP.+

I for one, hope Epcot doesn't become just another ride park. I think it's in desperate need of some updates, but there are people who don't think riding rides is all there is to do. I could stay entertained and busy at Epcot if there were no rides at all. Same thing with the AK. HS has never been a big draw for me. It's the one park that a ride is what gets me to go there- if it weren't for TOT, I'd never visit it at all. Yes, for FP+ to work, they have to tier rides. But with legacy, those same rides were running out of legacy passes- at least they were for us on every trip consistently. FP+ cures that problem- at least what availability there is, is spread out and it's not hard at all to get a FP+ for it.

 

[Cormoran]

I for one, hope Epcot doesn't become just another ride park. I think it's in desperate need of some updates, but there are people who don't think riding rides is all there is to do. I could stay entertained and busy at Epcot if there were no rides at all. Same thing with the AK. HS has never been a big draw for me. It's the one park that a ride is what gets me to go there- if it weren't for TOT, I'd never visit it at all. Yes, for FP+ to work, they have to tier rides. But with legacy, those same rides were running out of legacy passes- at least they were for us on every trip consistently. FP+ cures that problem- at least what availability there is, is spread out and it's not hard at all to get a FP+ for it.

I would rather see Epcot become a ride park than one big bar! Don't get me wrong, I love the WS but now Epcot seems to be the party park. They don't want to do anything that will interfere with the Food and Wine festival and now the Flower and Garden has the same kiosks. I think future world need a lot of love.