How to "fix" FP+

[jade1]

I think how quickly legacy FP's are running out during the day now is a great indication that there isn't really a large enough number of those to significantly increase the amount of FP+ slots available when they are added in.

I did a quick calculation last week when I was there - a load/unload cycle at Soarin took 8 minutes. Capacity is 184 guests when both sides are running. Under optimal conditions, that's 7.5 cycles per hour = 1,380 guests per hour or 16,560 over 12 hours.

Even if the Standby line was shut down and you could only get in via FP+ that is only a fraction of the total number of Epcot attendees per day.

Disney has a reputation for magic but it's hard to manipulate real numbers.

Ok so build 2 more screens and charge $10 for FP+ on those, that's $58 million in 1 year.

That way they have doubled Soarin availability for free.

 

[Muddypaws]

So if Disney is playing with the FF+ system, including tiering, because they want to distribute the crowds around so as not to overwhelm certain attractions is that not just pointing a big glaring finger at what really is the problem? There are not enough big attractions for the number of guests that they are allowing into the park.

So, to me, it is appearing that Disney's solution to the visitor/ride capacity issue is to limit the number of times I can go on certain attractions or make the time period between them stretch out. Test Track or Soarin' - ride one and then wait standby for the other is the perfect example.

 

[Laketravis]

Ok so build 2 more screens and charge $10 for FP+ on those, that's $58 million in 1 year.

That way they have doubled Soarin availability for free.

Of course. But they've recently told investors they aren't going to do that.

 

[Dannek]

I think how quickly legacy FP's are running out during the day now is a great indication that there isn't really a large enough number of those to significantly increase the amount of FP+ slots available when they are added in.

I did a quick calculation last week when I was there - a load/unload cycle at Soarin took 8 minutes. Capacity is 184 guests when both sides are running. Under optimal conditions, that's 7.5 cycles per hour = 1,380 guests per hour or 16,560 over 12 hours.

Even if the Standby line was shut down and you could only get in via FP+ that is only a fraction of the total number of Epcot attendees per day.

Disney has a reputation for magic but it's hard to manipulate real numbers.

True, but please read my second post that is just above yours. I don't think that Disney would ever offer a FP+ reservation for Soarin' specifically, so to speak. The ticket offered would be for "a" tier one ride at Epcot. You might choose Maelstrom or a reservation for Illuminations. If all of the tier one rides were booked solid that day, they couldn't/wouldn't offer any additional FP+ reservations for that day at that park.

 

[Laketravis]

So if Disney is playing with the FF+ system, including tiering, because they want to distribute the crowds around so as not to overwhelm certain attractions is that not just pointing a big glaring finger at what really is the problem? There are not enough big attractions for the number of guests that they are allowing into the park.

So, to me, it is appearing that Disney's solution to the visitor/ride capacity issue is to limit the number of times I can go on certain attractions or make the time period between them stretch out. Test Track or Soarin' - ride one and then wait standby for the other is the perfect example.

It really is that simple, and is the principle behind yield management. In response to complaints about long waits, the bean counters at Disney looked around and said "But wait - we've got all this excess capacity at all of these other attractions in the parks. We don't need to spend more money on new attractions, we just need to herd the cattle to all of this unused capacity. Problem solved!"

Dilbert got a promotion, and this is what you see now.

 

[Laketravis]

True, but please read my second post that is just above yours. I don't think that Disney would ever offer a FP+ reservation for Soarin' specifically, so to speak. The ticket offered would be for "a" tier one ride at Epcot. You might choose Maelstrom or a reservation for Illuminations. If all of the tier one rides were booked solid that day, they couldn't/wouldn't offer any additional FP+ reservations for that day at that park.

That doesn't address ridership demand for certain attractions.

 

[jade1]

Of course. But they've recently told investors they aren't going to do that.

Sorry I missed that-they actually said they won't charge for FP+ on new headliners, resulting in free expansion?

 

[ktlm]

In my mind it is simple- First fix all the technical issues with MDE/ park wifi- so that it can handle the crowds utilizing it in the parks and works as intended to that FP+ can be easily booked or changed in the park.

Then- everyone gets to book 1 FP+, starting at 60 days out. Once you have entered a park that day, then FP+/MDE works exactly like the old system EXCEPT you do it through MDE or a kiosk. When you enter the park, you have the ability to select 1 more FP+ (still having the ability to pick any available time during the day) - then like with FP- you have to wait until that FP+ kicks in- or for a specified period of time (can't remember if it is 1 or 2 hours normally) and then you can book another FP+. Also, if you hop, then you can pull FP+ from the new park that day as well- just like the old system, only using your phone. It is a blending of the 2 systems. You still get the benefit of having something set ahead of time, so you do not have to make the morning rush for your priority-- but you still have flexibility- and there is no such thing as tiering.

 

[Muddypaws]

It really is that simple, and is the principle behind yield management. In response to complaints about long waits, the bean counters at Disney looked around and said "But wait - we've got all this excess capacity at all of these other attractions in the parks. We don't need to spend more money on new attractions, we just need to herd the cattle to all of this unused capacity. Problem solved!"

Dilbert got a promotion, and this is what you see now.

Isn't it just that simple. When you look at this all from a marketing standpoint it is all so black and white. What they forgot to take into consideration, though, is that the reason so many other attractions don't have the lines is that they are getting old and dated. It is baffling to me that they would think the like of Journey of the Little Mermaid would help. That ride is just a cheap band aid. So unmemorable that I had to look up the name for "that new Little Mermaid ride they just built in Fantasyland - you know, the one that is sorta like the Nemo ride in Epcot." And the entire Harry Potter book series was written in about the same time it took them to get a small roller coaster opened.

The Universal execs must be absolutely loving this.

 

[Disneylover76]

In my mind it is simple- First fix all the technical issues with MDE/ park wifi- so that it can handle the crowds utilizing it in the parks and works as intended to that FP+ can be easily booked or changed in the park.

Then- everyone gets to book 1 FP+, starting at 60 days out. Once you have entered a park that day, then FP+/MDE works exactly like the old system EXCEPT you do it through MDE or a kiosk. When you enter the park, you have the ability to select 1 more FP+ (still having the ability to pick any available time during the day) - then like with FP- you have to wait until that FP+ kicks in- or for a specified period of time (can't remember if it is 1 or 2 hours normally) and then you can book another FP+. Also, if you hop, then you can pull FP+ from the new park that day as well- just like the old system, only using your phone. It is a blending of the 2 systems. You still get the benefit of having something set ahead of time, so you do not have to make the morning rush for your priority-- but you still have flexibility- and there is no such thing as tiering.

I agree!

 

[Dannek]

That doesn't address ridership demand for certain attractions.

I agree. But at this point in time with the limited headliners that some of the parks have and the magnitude of people attending the parks in recent times, I think it's impossible in any format to satisfy every guests demands for each ride. I think that the only way to do that is to add more versions of popular rides, but as you mentioned Disney apparently said recently that they weren't going to do that.

Are there any other options to solve that issue? FP- worked for people who got to the parks early, but didn't work for people who arrived later in the day and wanted to ride the headliners. They either had to wait hours and hours for return time or were shut out completely, yet they paid the same amount for their tickets. I think that this is one of the main reasons Disney uses to justify FP+. To give every guest the same chance to ride the headliners regardless of the time they choose to arrive at the parks.

 

[Muddypaws]

In my mind it is simple- First fix all the technical issues with MDE/ park wifi- so that it can handle the crowds utilizing it in the parks and works as intended to that FP+ can be easily booked or changed in the park.

Then- everyone gets to book 1 FP+, starting at 60 days out.

On the surface I absolutely agree with you. Simplify it and it stands a chance of working. Except! what happened when everyone prebooks the same ride? Back to the same problem of not enough Fast Passes.

 

[Muddypaws]

Ummmm...... I just received my 4th email from Universal in the last two days. We have never stayed there, but I have been pricing out resorts. Do you get the feeling that someone over there is thinking "Make hay..."?

 

[rebbyparker]

On the surface I absolutely agree with you. Simplify it and it stands a chance of working. Except! what happened when everyone prebooks the same ride? Back to the same problem of not enough Fast Passes.

Exactly. Almost everyone wants to ride either Soarin or TT in Epcot. We are all agreed that there is not enough FP's for everyone visiting to ride either ride even once. Even if we tier (shudder!) the rides, even picking one of those two rides, I don't see how this fixes anything, the FP's are still going to run out. If there isn't enough, there isn't enough.

 

[morethananyonex]

In my mind it is simple- First fix all the technical issues with MDE/ park wifi- so that it can handle the crowds utilizing it in the parks and works as intended to that FP+ can be easily booked or changed in the park.

Then- everyone gets to book 1 FP+, starting at 60 days out. Once you have entered a park that day, then FP+/MDE works exactly like the old system EXCEPT you do it through MDE or a kiosk. When you enter the park, you have the ability to select 1 more FP+ (still having the ability to pick any available time during the day) - then like with FP- you have to wait until that FP+ kicks in- or for a specified period of time (can't remember if it is 1 or 2 hours normally) and then you can book another FP+. Also, if you hop, then you can pull FP+ from the new park that day as well- just like the old system, only using your phone. It is a blending of the 2 systems. You still get the benefit of having something set ahead of time, so you do not have to make the morning rush for your priority-- but you still have flexibility- and there is no such thing as tiering.

This would be an awesome system. A system like this would benefit guests as a whole the most, IMO. That's why I doubt we'll be seeing it . Disney has stated they want people locked into their schedules before they get to Florida so they don't get tempted by the other things to do there. 1 ride a day wouldn't cut it, especially when it would be easy to change the plans.

As far as I can see, Disney doesn't want guests to have that flexibility. They want guests locked into their FP+ plans, they want them locked into their park for the day, and they want them locked into their ADR for the day. Any system that benefits the guests more directly conflicts with their stated goals

 

[jade1]

Maybe one day Disney will once again realize the best way to keep people coming back and staying longer is new and creative experiences in the parks.

he best way to attract people and keep them to build things people want to see

For that to actually work, they'd need to have enough to sell.
Nobody with any Disney-smarts would pay a buck for a FP to ride Figment, so...
they'd need to have a BUNCH of TSM/Soarin'/Test Track/Exp.Everest/Safari/Space Mtn./Peter Pan FP+ to sell.

This. I've seen numerous posts about Disney possibly charging for FP+ and I don't get it at all. FP's, whether monetized or not, RUN OUT and run out fast. That's the whole problem, period.

I think how quickly legacy FP's are running out during the day now is a great indication that there isn't really a large enough number of those to significantly increase the amount of FP+ slots available when they are added in.

I did a quick calculation last week when I was there - a load/unload cycle at Soarin took 8 minutes. Capacity is 184 guests when both sides are running. Under optimal conditions, that's 7.5 cycles per hour = 1,380 guests per hour or 16,560 over 12 hours.

Even if the Standby line was shut down and you could only get in via FP+ that is only a fraction of the total number of Epcot attendees per day.

Disney has a reputation for magic but it's hard to manipulate real numbers.

If all of the tier one rides were booked solid that day, they couldn't/wouldn't offer any additional FP+ reservations for that day at that park.

We don't need to spend more money on new attractions.

That doesn't address ridership demand for certain attractions.

I agree. But at this point in time with the limited headliners that some of the parks have and the magnitude of people attending the parks in recent times, I think it's impossible in any format to satisfy every guests demands for each ride. I think that the only way to do that is to add more versions of popular rides.

Back to the same problem of not enough Fast Passes.

Exactly. Almost everyone wants to ride either Soarin or TT in Epcot. We are all agreed that there is not enough FP's for everyone visiting to ride either ride even once.

What if new headliners are a choice of SB, or $10 FP+ while QTY's last.

That's about $50 million per year. Once the ride is paid off-it drops back to no charge.

That way they have no excuse to not build as many as they can.

And people in SB can't be mad at FP+ riders because they should thank them for building it.

There's a difference in not spending money to add a 2nd TSM and Soarin, and all new headliners-and having a toll pay for it IMO.

If capacity is the issue, yea they could have spent the 1 Billion in just WDW to make attractions (wouldn't go very far worldwide), but to think they should now flush the 1 Billion, and now spend another 1 Billion on WDW attractions is not likely.

I say use the new system to pay for the new attractions.

 

[clsteve]

In my mind it is simple- First fix all the technical issues with MDE/ park wifi- so that it can handle the crowds utilizing it in the parks and works as intended to that FP+ can be easily booked or changed in the park.

Then- everyone gets to book 1 FP+, starting at 60 days out. Once you have entered a park that day, then FP+/MDE works exactly like the old system EXCEPT you do it through MDE or a kiosk. When you enter the park, you have the ability to select 1 more FP+ (still having the ability to pick any available time during the day) - then like with FP- you have to wait until that FP+ kicks in- or for a specified period of time (can't remember if it is 1 or 2 hours normally) and then you can book another FP+. Also, if you hop, then you can pull FP+ from the new park that day as well- just like the old system, only using your phone. It is a blending of the 2 systems. You still get the benefit of having something set ahead of time, so you do not have to make the morning rush for your priority-- but you still have flexibility- and there is no such thing as tiering.

But this scenario would go completely against the main goals of Disney for all of this: Yield Management and Capacity Management. They want to know which Park you're in, which part of the Park, they want to keep you in one Park for the full day, and they want to know all of this as many days in advance as possible. Not only that, they want to influence that at reservation. That's why they've put so much effort into the FP+ "suggestions" they pre-populate. Those aren't by some random design. The follow-on (and right in the capacity and yield mgt. sweetspot) will be them making TS or CS suggestions, items on sale in gift shops near your FP+, etc, while you're in the Park.

This whole exercise is geared to the first-timers, the once/twice in a lifetimers, international guests, etc., much more than us.

Also, your scenario would be a nightmare logistically. The infrastructure couldn't handle it. You'd have thousands at ropedrop all hitting the one wifi hotspot at the gates and 10's of thousands logging on to MDE at the resorts (if they opened it up to same day not just in-Park), all trying to get their next 2 FP+ reservations. The system would crater.

 

[Laketravis]

There's a difference in not spending money to add a 2nd TSM and Soarin, and all new headliners-and having a toll pay for it IMO.

If capacity is the issue, yea they could have spent the 1 Billion in just WDW to make attractions (wouldn't go very far worldwide), but to think they should now flush the 1 Billion, and now spend another 1 Billion on WDW attractions is not likely.

I say use the new system to pay for the new attractions.

Your idea has merit but one glaring issue - you are assuming that many people will be willing to pay an additional $10 for an FP+ to Soarin.

 

[jade1]

Your idea has merit but one glaring issue - you are assuming that many people will be willing to pay an additional $10 for an FP+ to Soarin.

Thanks, yea it's really more for the discussion-really just looking for options.

Maybe it's $2 or $5-just takes longer to pay off-still pays for itself.

Maybe the price is more for different seasons. They can also put a line item in a deluxe stay, or a DVC purchase etc.

And does it really need to pay for the whole investment? Getting a 2nd TSM for say 1/2 the price would get a lot of folks pretty happy-guests and bean counters IMO.

Plus didn't they do that when WDW opened? Charged more for headliners?

 

[KatieCharlotte]

Your idea has merit but one glaring issue - you are assuming that many people will be willing to pay an additional $10 for an FP+ to Soarin.

I would be willing to pay $10. However, I wouldn't be willing to pay $50 for the five members of my family. Multiplication is always a killer.

Sadly, I don't think there's a way to make FP+ work for Disney the way they want it to while making it work for us too.

For me, the only way to make it work is to fix Epcot and DHS. I realize that I'm perfectly happy going to MK and riding old favorites, enjoying the parades and Wishes, etc. I will always go to MK, but IoA is looking so much more appealing than DHS these days. And I personally love Epcot, but I have a hard time justifying the cost for a day. I feel the same about AK.

I hate booking ahead but some improvements could be made to the FP+ system at MK. I think it's realistic to increase the number of FP+ at MK, maybe with "pick two/three from each category" tiers. Make it possible to book two on the same ride, except Mine Ride. I'm guessing the "new ride" excitement will die off with the Mine Ride eventually.

But no FP+ tweaks can fix the problems at Epcot and DHS and save us from tiers. I love the World Showcase, but we all know Epcot needs more rides to take the pressure off Soarin' and TT. And DHS, seriously...TSMM is not that great. It just needs something newer and better to draw people's attention away.