How much power should schools have?

[mrsklamc]

I've always been mind boggled by folks from areas where it's actually illegal to take your kids out of school for a week for family vacation. Now I understand the point of view of teachers about how far behind kids can get in a week, but I feel the bottom line is, your child, your decision, as long as you aren't neglectful, and a week at Disney sure isn't neglectful.

Now I'm seeing stories about kids getting in trouble for facebook or myspace comments about school administrators. Today I saw an article that a private school was going to suspend a Senior from graduation if he attended his girlfriend's prom at another school. (the school prohibits dancing.) His father commented that the school's rules should only pertain to school hours- and I tend to agree. Wondering what others thing about things like this.

 

[powellrj]

never mind, I just get mad even reading the story again so I will just delete it.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

never mind, I just get mad even reading the story again so I will just delete it.

Now I really want to see what you had to say.


I think many schools go way to far. I feel vacation time should be a family decision, not the schools. Also the families responsibility to catch the kids up when they return, not the teachers.

I also don't think the school should monitor activity outside of school. That would be the parents responsibility.

 

[3Minnies1Mickey]

I will be taking my then 3rd grader out of school for 4 days for Disney. I am putting her on independent study, they give her assignment to do while we are gone, as long as the teacher/school doesn't fight me. She is changing schools this summer, so I don't know how it will go. In CA the schools don't get $ for absent students so they are really pushing attendance, I'm not sure how independent study factors in for their $$? I think it's ridiculous that a school would try to enforce their values and rules while children are not in their care.

 

[minniebeth]

A lot of it is what 3Minnies1Mickey touched upon...it's not coming from the teachers, the principal but from the district working within state guidelines.
A lot of funding and school accreditation ties into attendance...

I agree that it has gone to the extreme. I took my DD out of school for a week to spend some time with my mom who will not live much longer and to spend some time with family, as we live out of state from them. Sometimes there are life learning situations and other things that are just as valuable as school time. I would put family time in with that category.

As far as school rules go, I agree that school rules apply to school time and any time after that is up to the parents. The only exception that I know my kids' school makes for that is in a electronic bullying situation between classmates via IM or text that deals around a school situation.

 

[mrsklamc]

I know it's the districts that make the rules, but on other threads about vacations, fellow dissers who are teachers have pointed out that in lots of cases- i.e. high school math- a week can really damage the kid's progress. If any of those teachers were to read this thread, I wouldn't want them to think I discount that; just that even in those cases, I believe it's the parent's right to be stupid. You need to know what your child can and can't handle and what their course load looks like.

 

[theatermouse]

My family is coming to NC next week for my nephew's 11th birthday. He wanted to come down to attend Nascar's All Star Race. My sister-in-law had to petition the school for her boys to miss 4 days of classes. My nephews are in 4th & 2nd grades. She HAS to take them somewhere educational (so there's extra money they HAVE to spend) and the boys must give a presentation on what they learned. Um, WHAT?? I remember missing a week of school in 1991 for a week to Florida (a day at the Magic Kingdom included) but I didn't have to report back what we did. Now we did go to the Kennedy Space Center (don't know if my mom had to take us somewhere educational, but I liked going there), but I didn't have to stand up and tell the others what I learned.

I'm pretty annoyed by the story the OP shared about the boy/graduation/prom. Schools are trying to act like parents & it's not fair! I could go on & on about what I just vented to my husband about regarding this issue, but I'll try to keep it sane. Even though kids are sharing everything over the internet these days, it doesn't mean they need to be followed by anyone but their parents. Kind of makes you miss the days when notes were passed between friends & they were (usually) the only ones who read them. That way, the only people who would have known about him going to prom was the boy, his gf, & their families, not the rest of the country!

I feel for my son. I worry & wonder how things will be once he gets to school.

 

[katierae81]

I guess we are lucky here! If you tell the school that you will be taking your kids out for a trip to Disney, absences are not counted against you. The schools consider it an educational trip. As far as I know homework is not required during the vacation either. I think it is rediculous for a school to tell a parent what their child can/cannot do outside of school. Let the parents parent outside of school and the school educate during school hours.

 

[princessmom29]

I know it's the districts that make the rules, but on other threads about vacations, fellow dissers who are teachers have pointed out that in lots of cases- i.e. high school math- a week can really damage the kid's progress. If any of those teachers were to read this thread, I wouldn't want them to think I discount that; just that even in those cases, I believe it's the parent's right to be stupid. You need to know what your child can and can't handle and what their course load looks like.

I am a high school science teacher, and while i completely understand what you are saying sometimes schools do have to step in and protect students from there parent's stupidity. Not all parents are like those we encounter here. I have kids with absolutely no envolvement at home. Parents who could care less if the get to school, if they get dinner, or if they come home at night. It is these kind of parents that the rules are made for. I feel that it's my job as a teacher to safegard my student's best interests. If I feel like what a parent is doing is going to harm the student's academic progress I feel that I have to speak up about it. I think rules agianst vacations ect. Are the administration's attempt to safeguard kids agiant a parent's BAD decision. I ralize that a lot of people are going to disagree with me and say that it is the parent's right to do what they want with a child, but I really don't like that "It's my kid, and how dare you attempt to tell me how to raise them" mentality. Soemtimes I think that with those kind of parents it ceases to be about the kid at all and becomes all about control and resentment of athourity. It is like the children are property and are used to stick it to authority figures at any opportunity. I am not saying that you or anyone here is doing this, just that there are parents that do and those are the poeple who cause everyone else to be bound by so many rules.

 

[geishagirl81]

A teacher here-

I don't care if you take your kids out of class for vacation. Really. Just make sure they get their work done, no excuses And as a parent, I totally would be ticked if I had to petition the school to go on vacation. The next time that happens, threaten to remove your kids from the school entirely and thus, ALL of your child's funding money.

 

[princessmom29]

I guess we are lucky here! If you tell the school that you will be taking your kids out for a trip to Disney, absences are not counted against you. The schools consider it an educational trip. As far as I know homework is not required during the vacation either. I think it is rediculous for a school to tell a parent what their child can/cannot do outside of school. Let the parents parent outside of school and the school educate during school hours.

Yes, but a vacation takes away a lot of those school hours! That is the reason for the rule, lost instructional time. What happens before and after school is up to you, but it is the school's job to make sure children are present during instructional time. I don't think that they are overstepping their bounds in requiring that a student be present during scheduled instruction unless they are ill. A school cannot educate a child that is only there when it is convinent for the parent. It is a social contract that goes both ways, and i feel that when we agree to entrust our child's education to a school we have to agree to abide by their rules, wether or not we totally agree with all of them. There are some rules at my child's school that I have a problem with, but we still follow them because that is what we agreed to do when we enrolled her. I don't like that they tell me that i can only dress my kid in shorts of a cretian lenght and only send a one piece swimsuit for swimming. She has a long narrow torso and it makes it almost impossible to buy things to meet the dress code, but we deal with it b/c my child's education is mor important that challenging the rules.

 

[tartemis]

As a relatively new mom, I was shocked to find out that this is the policy in many schools in our area. As a kid, my parents frequently took me out of school for weeks at a time when I was in elementary school to visit relatives and go on vacation.

And my parents are both teachers (my mom stayed at home with us when I was young and my dad was at the University level, so his school year did not coincide with ours). I strongly believe that a child, especially at the elementary level, will learn more on a vacation of any kind, then what he/she will miss at school that week.

I realize these policies are the result of all of the "bad" parents out there, but it is really frustrating that responsible parents get punished because of the irresponsible ones.

 

[koima]

She HAS to take them somewhere educational (so there's extra money they HAVE to spend) and the boys must give a presentation on what they learned.

The airport is educational. Making breakfast with the family is educational. How are they defining educational?

 

[dollarmite]

I live in Australia and I've never ever heard of anyone here having a problem when taking kids out of school to travel, whether it be overseas or domestically.

From reading this forum and other US based ones I am on (for different subjects), I too was shocked at how some (most?) US schools seem to be so aghast at parents taking their kids out of school (to travel).

When I was in school we studied Fiji for several months. It was abstract and rather meaningless. Different currency/language/way of life? Umm yeah. Okay. On the other hand, my kids have been to Fiji several times and can enthusiastically tell you about the different currency/language/way of life. I defy any nameless bureacrat to tell me that my kids would have been better off stuck in a classroom for 2 weeks instead of actually experiencing these things for themselves.

I know of kids who have missed entire terms for a family trip to Europe. It hasn't impacted them negatively at all. Last year one of DS's friends travelled to Borneo during school time with his family. Hmm, let's see - spend a week in school doing all the normal stuff or getting up close with the animals in the wilds of Borneo?! Who needs to think twice about that?!!

Due to my husband's work situation we need to be flexible with our holiday plans. We try very hard to incorporate school holidays but if it doesn't work in with our plans, and if it means they miss school for a few weeks, then so be it. We usually take schoolwork with us, and I have learnt from that that we would definitely not be good candidates for home schooling, lol.

Primary schools in my state are from prep-grade 7. DS1 is in grade 7 this year and DS2 is in grade 4. We've taken them both out of school for between 2-4 weeks to travel overseas on several occasions. It has never impacted on their (high) grades or any other school related activity.

This year they will miss almost 6 weeks when we travel to the US. Their teachers are absolutely thrilled for them that they are being given this opportunity! Heck, some of the teachers at our school have taken their own kids out of school for overseas travel.

Next year when DS is in high school, will we still do it? Probably/maybe not. Having said that though, if the right opportunity comes along then we'd seriously consider it. There's a possibility that a trip to China and Singapore may eventuate. If so, my kids will be out of school again for at least part of the trip.

My parents took me out of both primary and high school to travel overseas and it never impacted negatively on my school life. All these years later can I remember what happened in school those particular years? Barely. Can I remember the details of the trips with my family? The happy memories and being immersed in a differrent country's culture? Absolutely!

 

[theatermouse]

She was told they had to go somewhere like a museum, zoo, or something along those lines. My nephew is super-big into racing (he learned his colors & numbers off racecars ) so I said taking him to raceshops should be his educational trip! Besides, those are FREE!

She wants to take them to Disney sometime in the near future. I'm curious as to how they will respond to that request.

 

[geishagirl81]

She was told they had to go somewhere like a museum, zoo, or something along those lines. My nephew is super-big into racing (he learned his colors & numbers off racecars ) so I said taking him to raceshops should be his educational trip! Besides, those are FREE!

She wants to take them to Disney sometime in the near future. I'm curious as to how they will respond to that request.

Seriously, does she have to show receipts? I mean, come on?!?!?! Ridiculous. It makes me think more and more that I am going to home teach.

 

[badblackpug]

I am a high school science teacher, and while i completely understand what you are saying sometimes schools do have to step in and protect students from there parent's stupidity. Not all parents are like those we encounter here. I have kids with absolutely no envolvement at home. Parents who could care less if the get to school, if they get dinner, or if they come home at night. It is these kind of parents that the rules are made for. I feel that it's my job as a teacher to safegard my student's best interests. If I feel like what a parent is doing is going to harm the student's academic progress I feel that I have to speak up about it. I think rules agianst vacations ect. Are the administration's attempt to safeguard kids agiant a parent's BAD decision. I ralize that a lot of people are going to disagree with me and say that it is the parent's right to do what they want with a child, but I really don't like that "It's my kid, and how dare you attempt to tell me how to raise them" mentality. Soemtimes I think that with those kind of parents it ceases to be about the kid at all and becomes all about control and resentment of athourity. It is like the children are property and are used to stick it to authority figures at any opportunity. I am not saying that you or anyone here is doing this, just that there are parents that do and those are the poeple who cause everyone else to be bound by so many rules.

This is well put, and what I have tried to express on past threads about taking children out of school. While most parents on these boards are conscientious about their kids education, there seems to be a growing number of parents who are not. ...and I am not a teacher, it is something I have observed. I have met many parents who feel that school is not a priority and let their kids stay home for any reason. I have a co-worker that was told she would be called to truancy court if her son missed another day of school...and it wasn't even Christmas yet! Some of the reasons he stayed home: He couldn't get his contacts in. He didn't sleep well. He had a headache. He had a stuffy nose. He was constipated. He was "too tired." I knew another mother that kept her child home every time she missed the bus (guess who could never get to the bus on time?) or whenever she didn't complete an assignment, so she didn't "get in trouble."
Unfortunately the absentee policies were made to protect these children and to insure that they receive an education in spite of their parents lack of concern. I have also met a few parents who believe that education ends when the school day ends, and after that it is not their responsibility. Including ensuring homework is complete, or offering extra help to a child who is struggling with a certain subject. It is a shame, but unfortunately because of attitudes like this, everyone gets painted with the same brush.

I do find some of the things a bit intrusive, though. I am highly irritated by being told what I can and cannot feed my children for lunch. I don't think that schools have any jurisdiction over what children do outside of the school environment in terms of activities. As far as criticizing the school via the internet...I believe that is covered by the 1st amendment.

 

[P.I. Squirrel]

First, the student attending the prom is enrolled in a private, parochial school, not a public school. They can set their own rules, and the parent's must agree to them in order to enroll. According to the story, the child has attended this (relatively strict) school for years with these same rules. It was not a new rule. The story also says that he would still be allowed to take his finals, and graduate, but not be able to attend the graduation ceremony. Given that, I think he should go to the prom anyway.

Our local school system has very strict truancy policies. I don't agree with them for all instances, but they must have something. I think we should be able to work out a deal where our children get their homework in advance, and turn everything in upon completion of the trip. Unfortunately for me, they do not see it that way.

 

[teachallday]

Private and Religious schools have the most restrictions. But be aware, if a parent chooses to send their child to one of these schools, you are choosing to go along with their policies. Save your tuition money and send your child to a public school. If enough parents do that because of a policy, the school will change the policy or they will have to shut down. One of the pos

The original poster said, >>Today I saw an article that a private school was going to suspend a Senior from graduation if he attended his girlfriend's prom at another school. (the school prohibits dancing.) His father commented that the school's rules should only pertain to school hours- and I tend to agree. Wondering what others thing about things like this.<<

This is a private school, most likely a religious one. These schools have the right to set rules like this because the people who pay to go to these schools have accepted these rules as what they want for their children. When you think about enrolling your child in a private or religious school, remember to look over the rules and policies, for you are paying big money which requires you to follow those rules and policies.

Now Public Schools are in a no win situation. They are facing many parents that do not value education, and will have a child miss a lot of school for a variety of reasons, including that they just didn’t feel like getting the kids up and ready for school that day. Yet, the government has laws which punish schools (not parents) for having poor attendance. Parents sue public schools for not educating their children, yet those same parents would repeatedly pull their child out of school for this or that. If a child is struggling in school, yet they have missed a lot of school, who is responsible for the child not being at grade level?

If a public school pushes attendance policies, they get a lot of parents complaining. Most kids do not miss school because they are traveling to other countries or visiting sick relatives. When a parent does request work for a child because they will be gone for a week or two, very rarely does any of the work come back done. Parents also do not expect to have to teach any new skills in that work, they really only want review work so the kid can do it independently if they think about asking the kid to do it. Most kids do struggle when they get back if a critical new skill was taught when they were gone.

Keep one thing in mind. Public schools can set these strict attendance policies, but if you do not like them, go to the school board and work to have them changed. There is also very little a public school can do to enforce some of these issues. Private schools have a lot they can do, including kicking the kid out of school. Private schools have the right to select who their students are and kick out students who do not follow their guidelines. Public schools do not (although the magnet schools do have stricter policies because they are run a lot more like a private school, but again the parents choose that school and therefore need to follow the rules if they want their child to go to that particular school).

 

[emma'smom]

Welll...I was fretting about pulling my dd6 out of first grade next week for 5 school days around Memorial Day week-end. However, the teacher just quit (returned in his contract for next year)....so I guessing he's not going to care too much!

Too bad he's leaving, but good timing for us!

School ends in 3 weeks anyway....if she hasn't learned it by now......