How do you feel about school vouchers?

[Master Mason]

By the way, the way it was 'working' in Utah is they were going to give it according to your income. STILL giving money to the people who were already putting their children in Private schools (Which in Utah is normally wealthy people) and giving SOME money to low and middle class which would mean they STILL would not be able to afford the, say, 1000 extra it'd take. So it seemed like the only people coming ahead were the wealthy, even tho it'd only give them a 300 dollar break.

Taking from the poor to give to the rich, anyone? Taking money out of public schools is NOT the answer. Parental assistance IS

Excuse me, but It was their money in the first place untill the governement took it away via taxes was it not, so therefore your not taking a damn thing away from the poor, because they didn't have it in the first place.

School vouchers used to attend private/religious schools are unconstitutional. What is the debate? MY tax dollars are to used for someone to attend a school before of a personal, un proven belief? Inequity in public schools is not solved by allowing children to attend private/religious schools. Use that money and more, much more, to create equity in public schools.

Kathee

Could you please site from the constitution, where it states that vouchers are not allowed? For that matter could you please show me where the right to have an education is even in the constitution? It really galls me when people toss out things as unconstitutional, that have apparently not read the document in question.

 

[dsanner106]

I agree with most of what you've stated. ALL children should have access to a quality education. However, do you feel that parents of students already in the private/Catholic schools who are struggling to make ends meet should also be given a voucher? Did you read my earlier post about my friend raising her sister's kids?

I teach in a Catholic school with a lower socioeconomic base than some of the other Catholic schools in Jefferson Parish. Every year, I usually lose one student for non payment of tuition. These are parents who WANT their kids to have the education we provide, but may not have the means to give it to them. Shouldn't they receive a break, also?

Absolutely. Under a true voucher system, one voucher is assigned to each child no matter where they go now. They then use the voucher at their public or private school.

D

 

[Sinderelli]

Absolutely. Under a true voucher system, one voucher is assigned to each child no matter where they go now. They then use the voucher at their public or private school.

D

Ok, then this is not a true voucher system. I fear this is going to hurt my school in the end, b/c of this: We are not a "top tier" Catholic school in our area, due to location. The quality of education we offer is equal to, and in some cases superior to, some of the other Catholic schools. However, we take in the kids the other Catholic schools weed out- the ones with 504 accomodations, dyslexia, etc. Although those schools are on the list for accepting vouchers, I am not stupid- when the voucher kids come knocking, these schools are going to be mysteriously "full". My school technically could take in 200 more students.

Now, if we accept 200 students with vouchers who have been in a failing school system, suffice it to say we are going to be playing a lot of catch up. These kids will not be dispersed evenly around the parish. There is one school that will serve as the "catch all" for these kids. The parents who were there before will pull their kids out (not all, but a lot will). Once again, these kids will be isolated from the rest of the Catholic school kids.

The rest of the schools will continue to brag about their SAT scores, while the schools who are doing the right thing and helping all children will continue to live with the reputation of being a "sub-par" school.

 

[castleview]

However, we take in the kids the other Catholic schools weed out- the ones with 504 accomodations, dyslexia, etc. .

I'm surprised more voucher proponents haven't recognized that private schools will have to deal with kids they normally weed out.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I agree with most of what you've stated. ALL children should have access to a quality education. However, do you feel that parents of students already in the private/Catholic schools who are struggling to make ends meet should also be given a voucher? Did you read my earlier post about my friend raising her sister's kids?

I teach in a Catholic school with a lower socioeconomic base than some of the other Catholic schools in Jefferson Parish. Every year, I usually lose one student for non payment of tuition. These are parents who WANT their kids to have the education we provide, but may not have the means to give it to them. Shouldn't they receive a break, also?

If they meet the guidelines, then yes.

 

[corndog]

School vouchers used to attend private/religious schools are unconstitutional. What is the debate? MY tax dollars are to used for someone to attend a school before of a personal, un proven belief? Inequity in public schools is not solved by allowing children to attend private/religious schools. Use that money and more, much more, to create equity in public schools.

Kathee

Vouchers are indeed constitutional. The Supreme Court tells me so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris

I, personally, am against vouchers because they will lead to excessive government entanglement in private schools, resulting in the private school product being indistinguishable from the public school product.

A far superior solution is the "Universal Tuition Tax Credit." If you have a serious interest in the subject, I suggest reading this report from the Mackinac Center:

http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=362

 

[dsanner106]

That sounds better to me too, I do not want the govt. any more involved than necessary. My thought on the vouchers is that private schools will expand and new ones will open if their is an abundance of kids walking around with vouchers in their hands. I know there isn't room for them in the current batch of privates.

D

 

[noodleknitter]

I am absolutly for vouchers. Send the educational system to the free market and see what happens. Can't get much worse than it is, really.

 

[BellvilleDad]

I don't think its fair at all. You are right some parents sacrifice everything so that their children can attend these schools, my father was one of them. He also had to pay his taxes to help the public schools. I say if they are giving vouchers for these students, then parents who pay tuition to these schools should receive vouchers for their taxes.

I started and work a side business every evening to pay tuition. If I can do, anyone with some motivation can.

 

[mom2boys77]

MTE!!! My husband and I sacrifice to send our boys to private school and we also pay taxes even though our children don't go to school here. I think the bottom line is that if the parents are not involved then a voucher is not going to help.

I started and work a side business every evening to pay tuition. If I can do, anyone with some motivation can.

 

[mumom95]

I agree that the schools need to be fixed, but if the parents are not involved in their child's education in the public schools, a voucher will not help at all.

I agree with this.

I have taught high school in both public and private schools. I am against vouchers.

 

[disneyjunkie]

You really think the parents who would take advantage of the vouchers are the type of parents who aren't involved in their child's education?

Just because they have to send their kids to low performing schools, doesn't mean they aren't involved.

I grew up and still live in an inner city section of Brooklyn. I also teach in the area. One thing I've learned is that most parents are willing to do whatever they can to keep their kids in good schools

 

[golfgal]

School vouchers used to attend private/religious schools are unconstitutional. What is the debate? MY tax dollars are to used for someone to attend a school before of a personal, un proven belief? Inequity in public schools is not solved by allowing children to attend private/religious schools. Use that money and more, much more, to create equity in public schools.

Kathee

You DO realize that some of your tax money already goes to pay for some things in private/religious schools, don't you? They do get federal and state funds for things like math, reading, etc. they just can't spend that money on religious related material, etc.


I think the system in MN is a good option vs vouchers. We have statewide open enrollement. Any student in any district can apply to attend school in another district. Unless the class is full or the child has a bad behavior record the applications are generally accepted. We have had this program for 10+ years and guess what, the failing schools are still failing. Why, because the demographics of those schools haven't changed. In some ways they have gotten worse because the better students have left for better schools.

The tax dollars the district would have gotten for that child moves with the child (most but not all of the money). The incoming districts see a gain in their revenue from that tax money so it is advantageous for them to accept students to fill classes without adding classes and increasing their costs.

Most students that open enroll in other districts do so for sports, however. You don't see many students from the worst schools moving to better schools. The city schools even offer free busing for kids that want to attend a better suburban school, not many kids take advantage of that. Also, the private schools are not involved with this so no worries about tuition, etc. The public schools in MN are very good so there is very little educational quality difference between schools and the public schools are as good as and better then the private schools.

 

[mumom95]

Excuse me, but It was their money in the first place untill the governement took it away via taxes was it not, so therefore your not taking a damn thing away from the poor, because they didn't have it in the first place.



? For that matter could you please show me where the right to have an education is even in the constitution? It really galls me when people toss out things as unconstitutional, that have apparently not read the document in question.

I know the Ohio state constitution says that the state is required to provide an education to its children (The Ohio State Constitution requires the General Assembly to provide and fund "a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the State.), and I imagine most of the states constitutions say something about it. Education is a state matter, not a federal, so really whether or not something education wise is unconstitutional or not should be based on the state constitution, not the federal.

Before you get upset at someone else for not reading the constitutions in this country, I would advise you to make sure that you have also read all of them. Education is a state matter

 

[mumom95]

You DO realize that some of your tax money already goes to pay for some things in private/religious schools, don't you? They do get federal and state funds for things like math, reading, etc. they just can't spend that money on religious related material, etc.


I think the system in MN is a good option vs vouchers. We have statewide open enrollement. Any student in any district can apply to attend school in another district. Unless the class is full or the child has a bad behavior record the applications are generally accepted. We have had this program for 10+ years and guess what, the failing schools are still failing. Why, because the demographics of those schools haven't changed. In some ways they have gotten worse because the better students have left for better schools.

The tax dollars the district would have gotten for that child moves with the child (most but not all of the money). The incoming districts see a gain in their revenue from that tax money so it is advantageous for them to accept students to fill classes without adding classes and increasing their costs.

Most students that open enroll in other districts do so for sports, however. You don't see many students from the worst schools moving to better schools. The city schools even offer free busing for kids that want to attend a better suburban school, not many kids take advantage of that. Also, the private schools are not involved with this so no worries about tuition, etc. The public schools in MN are very good so there is very little educational quality difference between schools and the public schools are as good as and better then the private schools.

We have a system like this in Ohio, although I'm not sure if all school have to participate or if the school can choose to opt out. And I'm not sure if the busing option is available. I also think it may be a good alternative to vouchers.

The issue we have in Ohio is how the schools are funded. The Ohio supreme court has ruled twice that the way the state funds schools is unconstitutional, but yet nothing has changed.

 

[Master Mason]

I know the Ohio state constitution says that the state is required to provide an education to its children (The Ohio State Constitution requires the General Assembly to provide and fund "a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the State.), and I imagine most of the states constitutions say something about it. Education is a state matter, not a federal, so really whether or not something education wise is unconstitutional or not should be based on the state constitution, not the federal.

Before you get upset at someone else for not reading the constitutions in this country, I would advise you to make sure that you have also read all of them. Education is a state matter

I absolutely agree with you, that Education is a state matter, however the OP was saying it was unconstitutional in a Federal Manner, IE seperation of church and state, which it has been shown by a PP that even the Supream Court disagreed that it is unconstitutional.

Also, If you wish to argue something violates a State Constitution, then you must amend your statment to refect your speaking of the state, otherwise the indication is the Federal Constitution.

On a side note, since it is a State Matter, can someone explain why we have a Federal Department of Education?

 

[golfgal]

We have a system like this in Ohio, although I'm not sure if all school have to participate or if the school can choose to opt out. And I'm not sure if the busing option is available. I also think it may be a good alternative to vouchers.

The issue we have in Ohio is how the schools are funded. The Ohio supreme court has ruled twice that the way the state funds schools is unconstitutional, but yet nothing has changed.

Schools can opt out in MN. At first some did but then they realized that they lost money for kids moving out of their district and other's gained that money so as far as I know, all districts participate. I know in our schools, the 8th grade class at our middle school is full so they aren't accepting any applications for that grade. If enough kids move into the district they could force out the open enrolled kids too if they don't want to add classes/teachers to accommodate them.

Most districts don't have busing, just some of the inner-city schools, Minneapolis for sure, not sure about St. Paul. The suburban schools require you to provide your own transportation.

 

[Sinderelli]

You really think the parents who would take advantage of the vouchers are the type of parents who aren't involved in their child's education?

Just because they have to send their kids to low performing schools, doesn't mean they aren't involved.

I grew up and still live in an inner city section of Brooklyn. I also teach in the area. One thing I've learned is that most parents are willing to do whatever they can to keep their kids in good schools

Not sure if this is directed towards me, but I'll answer. I am not going to generalize about parents in the low performing schools. My main concern is that the schools on the list who are accepting vouchers are going to suddenly be "full" when it comes to actually taking the kids in, leaving a few schools to accept the bulk of the kids. Everything in the Catholic schools here is based on SAT scores. Schools with lower SAT scores are given a bad rap, without even taking into consideration that they are taking in the kids the other schools weed out. If the kids are below level, which many of them are, a large influx of them into one school is definitely going to impact their school's scores. I'm not saying it's right- it's just the way things are.


I've encountered many teachers in the public school system, and most of them are EXCELLENT. They are shouldering a lot of the blame for the failing schools, which is not fair IMO. In talking to them, they often talk about the lack of parental involvement, students who don't show up for school until after Labor Day (missing about 2-3 weeks of school since we start in August), and parents who don't bother to come for conferences. This is not ALL of the parents, but it's prevelant enough across the board for this to be experienced by many teachers.

 

[EmmersIsTheMommy]

Excuse me, but It was their money in the first place untill the governement took it away via taxes was it not, so therefore your not taking a damn thing away from the poor, because they didn't have it in the first place.

.

Yeah good idea, make them poor AND stupid.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I couldn't be a bigger fan of vouchers than I am. Simply isn't possible.