How do they do it?

[MrsPete]

Is it really the job that's to blame or rebellion? Or, maybe some other issue? Having underclassmen making up nearly the entire band is a pretty extreme scenario & not at all the norm around here.

Personally, I've seen new friends and/or Boy/Girlfriends wreck more kids' grades than jobs.

Some kids are rebellious.
Some kids are prioritizing their jobs over their education.
These are both problems, but they don't manifest themselves in the same ways. Some kids have BOTH issues going on.

Yes, a boyfriend /girlfriend CAN derail a kid's grades, but that's a whole different subject.

 

[MrsPete]

That being said, I see today's high school as a much more intense period than it was for me 30 years ago. l

Eh, it is and it isn't. We sort of have two schools within the school these days:

On the one hand, we have the kids for whom high school is very intense -- definitely more intense than it was for me in the 80s. They take advanced classes, perhaps college credits. They're very involved in activities. They're concerned about getting into a good college and they worry about making the right choices. Not all of these kids are super talented, but most of them are at least strong average.

On the other hand, have the kids who just don't care. They don't attend regularly, don't do any homework, and yet are given chance after chance after chance. They have learned that if they just do nothing, eventually they will be passed on anyway. We expend immense effort (and money) trying to get these kids to do the absolute minimum amount of work so we can justify giving them a high school diploma. Some of these kids don't have much academic ability, but others are just plain lazy.

And in between we have fairly few kids. You know how people are saying that the middle class is disappearing? You can see it in high school.

Thing is, the parents of each group are largely unaware that the other group exists. It's an odd situation.

 

[Shanna-like-Banana]

I started working a few weeks after I turned 15.

I would either walk or ride my bike to work. Sometimes older kids where I worked would see me walking and would give me a ride.

In FL, kids certain ages have to be off work by so many hours before school started the next day. I *think it was 12 hours before school started, so the latest I could work was 8pm. I worked 4-8pm 3 or 4 days a week and 2-6pm every other Sunday when I was not at my dads house.

I had to work and save up enough to pay for my learners permit, insurance, etc. Over the summer I was able to work 5-6 days a week and was able to save more money quicker to save up for my first car.

I was still in some school clubs Anchor and Junior Civitan.

 

[barkley]

I was reading the thread on when you have your kids start paying their own car insurance and some people were saying as soon as they got their license.

I'm wondering how a high school kid who is in school can work enough hours making minimum wage to earn enough to pay for a car, car insurance, and gasoline like some parents ask them to do. On top of that, how do they have time to do homework and study? I guess extracurriculars are out? Do colleges these days put a fair amount of weight on extracurriculars when considering a college application?

Do these kids ever sleep?

kids do it all the time, I remember doing it. seems like the difference now vs. when I went to school is how extra curriculars are structured at some schools. at our high school choirs and bands are classes during the school day so that doesn't eat up any time beyond the normal school day (except jazz band which is zero period so it starts around 7:15 a.m.). with the exception of sports/cheer, most others meet during lunch-knowledge bowl, honor society, Spanish club....

school lets out at 3:10, so if a kid doesn't do a sport they could get a job from 4-8, and just working Monday-Friday get in 20 hours per week. if they can get one that swings them some weekend hours as well it's icing on the cake. getting off work at 8, many do homework until 10:30 or 11 similar to their athletic counterparts whose practices and games can go till 8 or 9. our minimum wage is $9.32 an hour, so just working 20 hours a week could net around $700 a month (we don't have state income taxes). kids who work these jobs can well afford to save for a car, and then pay for gas and insurance.

 

[disykat]

Our kids worked during the summers, but that money was for spending money during high school and especially saving ahead for spending during college. They saved and budgeted accordingly, because allowance from us stopped once they hit working age.

We paid most of their educational and transportation expenses though, so we paid for insurance and the opportunity to drive a shared family vehicle as part of that.

I agree, it would have been hard for them to work very much during the school year during high school because of their activities. Our kids limited that to occasional odd jobs they did for friends and neighbors. During college, whether they work during the year is based on their academic schedule. Some terms they do, some they don't.

I think working just part of the year and having to budget the money out all year was good because helped them form good budgeting habits.

 

[HeatherC]

I am all for kids having a part time job to help pay for things like cars, insurance, phones, etc. if their school schedule allows it.

But...that is also going under the assumption that they can find a job. My DD is 17 and very involved in school activities. She had been looking for a long time for a job. (Finally got one at a movie theater...through a friend). While she always did the occasional babysitting, pet sitting, etc. types of things to earn extra money, it was very hard to find something around here.

We know tons of kids who want to work, but most places won't hire them until they are 18. Places like Sears and Home Depot won't hire until 18. Since we are in a small suburban town where things are very spread out and there isn't much industry, this makes it very difficult for kids.

I feel bad for the kids whose parents make them pay for everything when there are very few jobs and even getting to one can be a 25-30 min. ride. That to me is just unrealistic. ( In this particular area.)

So while I think part time jobs are great, depending on where you live can also impact a kids ability to do so and I think parents need to take that into consideration.

 

[Colleen27]

As a high school teacher, I can tell you that a whole lot of kids put school on the back burner once they turn 16 and want to drive. Choices I see over and over:

- Kids drop back from Honors level to General level so they don't have to work so hard in school. A smart kid in a General level class won't have much homework or studying. Many kids no longer shoot for the A, but decide that a C is okay. Kids also opt to take fewer classes, which means they're missing out on the chance to try their hand at pottery or Electrical trades, which can be excellent life experiences. Typically juniors and seniors miss more days of school than do freshmen and sophomores -- and sometimes that is because they're working late the night before. In general, kids who work lots of hours are just less invested in high school.
- Kids drop extra activities; for example, our high school band is made up almost exclusively of freshmen and sophomores. Most juniors and seniors drop this type of activity, which requires a great deal of time.

As for colleges and extra-activities, if you're talking about a typical college -- not a very prestigious school -- extras neither help nor hurt with admission. But extras make all the difference in scholarships.

I do see students who work part-time jobs AND remain full entrenched in high school. A perfect teen job would 1) be fewer than 12-15 hours a week. 2) would require no late night hours. 3) would provide some help for the future; for example, working part-time at the vet is better than flipping burgers. However, few kids find such ideal jobs. Overall, I see more kids who are hurt by part time jobs than are helped.

That's what I see with DS16's peers too. Not everyone takes that route - many of the involved kids make the choice not to drive ASAP because they don't want to make the trade offs required to shoulder the associated expenses. But those who are working generally do so at the expense of their high school experience, sometimes to the point of transfer to the more lax alternative high school so poor attendance or lack of time for homework are less problematic than in the mainstream high school. There are only a handful of kids on the football team who drive and maybe a dozen (of 100+) in the marching band, and according to DS they're mostly the kids whose parents are willing to buy a car and/or pay the insurance bill so that they don't have to prioritize work over school or activities.

S far DS16 has almost no interest in driving. I've told him that drivers ed is mandatory in the summer before his senior year because I want him to have the class and a year of driving with us before he's driving himself to college classes, and he seems content to wait until then. We plan to buy him an older car or pass along one of ours if we upgrade between now and then, and we'll cover his insurance as long as he's in school full-time (HS and college - he plans on community college and from our area a car is a must for that commute).

 

[DisneyDreamer2504]

When I was in hs I worked during the summer, and only until soccer started in early August, so it was hard to find a job that would hire for just June and July. I did not make much money doing it, so it didn't last long or cover much. During the school year I wasn't allowed to have a job. My parents said my job was to be a student and do it well. I also played varsity sports all three seasons so a job would have been impossible.

That summer job did not make me much money and when I graduated hs I had no money saved. I also never had an allowance of kind, but I really never had any expenses anyway. My parents supplied everything, but not in a spoiled way. They did buy me a car and pay insurance, but I didn't get my license until I was 18 and just a couple months before graduation. When that car was finished in college (I had an accident) they helped me through the loan process and setting up my own insurance. I worked full time through most of college too, so I knew the importance of working hard.

 

[MIGrandma]

Our DS worked part time starting at age 14 - every Saturday night in the concession stand at the local race track. Then he worked for a couple area farmers milking cows (morning/evening). He also played football.

Our DD started working as a dishwasher at a local diner when she turned 15. She did that for a year, then moved up to waitressing. She worked approximately 20 hours per week. She was also a cheerleader, in the national honor society and graduated with honors. She went on to college and worked part-time then as well.

We felt it was important for them to have part-time jobs in high school, to learn the value of a dollar and to have that working experience to put on their resumes, and to start paying for some of their own expenses. We did provide each of them with a car to drive (we sold them after they were finished with them and bought their own) and we did provide insurance but we were able to insure them on an old farm truck so it was less expensive. They did pay for their own gas. And our DD paid for any higher-end clothes that she wanted. And they paid their own way when they went out with friends to movies, etc.

I don't see that parents are doing their children any favors by "not allowing them to work" at all during their high school years. Even just during the summer would be good experience for them. But kids can handle school, homework, extra-curricular activities AND a part-time job as well.

 

[okeydokey]

I live in a very rural area and jobs for teenagers are very few and far between.

My 16 year old would like to find a job, but she is in band and colorguard and taking challenging classes. Summer is full of leadership camp, Duke TiP and band camp. I would much rather her focus her attention on these things right now, as she gets so much out of them. If she can find and fit in a part time job, that's great too. If she can't, we will help with as much as we are comfortably able to.

 

[MrsPete]

That's what I see with DS16's peers too. Not everyone takes that route - many of the involved kids make the choice not to drive ASAP because they don't want to make the trade offs required to shoulder the associated expenses. But those who are working generally do so at the expense of their high school experience, sometimes to the point of transfer to the more lax alternative high school so poor attendance or lack of time for homework are less problematic than in the mainstream high school. There are only a handful of kids on the football team who drive and maybe a dozen (of 100+) in the marching band, and according to DS they're mostly the kids whose parents are willing to buy a car and/or pay the insurance bill so that they don't have to prioritize work over school or activities.

S far DS16 has almost no interest in driving. I've told him that drivers ed is mandatory in the summer before his senior year because I want him to have the class and a year of driving with us before he's driving himself to college classes, and he seems content to wait until then. We plan to buy him an older car or pass along one of ours if we upgrade between now and then, and we'll cover his insurance as long as he's in school full-time (HS and college - he plans on community college and from our area a car is a must for that commute).

Yes, what you're describing is exactly what I see: The kids who "remain involved" are the kids whose parents have more money and are able to provide for them. Of course, it's not a 100% true thing -- exceptions abound -- but it's a general truth.

I also know of a few kids who are driving -- with their parents' knowledge and blessing -- without a license and without insurance. I first became aware of this years ago when one of my students asked me if I'd Xerox his driver's license for him. Our county policy is that if a student is attending a dance at another high school, the student must provide a Xerox of his license so the school knows who's in their building /the student's age. I agreed to make a copy, but when he handed me his license, the face was all scratched out, and it wasn't his name. Clearly he was trying to pull a fast one, and I refused to help him. He laughed and explained that it was his cousin's old license. He said, "Everyone does it." I asked him if he is actually able to use the license with the face scratched out, and he admitted that he's never been stopped by the police. I believe that: In 30-something years of driving, I've only been stopped a handful of times. My oldest has been driving 4 years and has never been stopped. I felt awfully unaware that day, but since then I've become aware of other kids doing the same thing. Apparently their parents are able to scrape together $1000 or so for an old beat-up car, and one of the ways they afford it is to bypass what you and I consider "the necessities".

The real moral: Don't skimp on your own uninsured motorist insurance.

I know a few kids who aren't interested in driving AT ALL -- often it's fear underneath this issue. When I was a teen, I knew no one who wasn't chomping at the bit to drive. One of my dear friends didn't drive until she was 18, but that was because her parents forbid it. One of my brothers waited to drive, but that was because our parents had insisted upon some rather stringent requirements, and he had decided it was just easier NOT to drive. I agree with you, however, that you should push him to learn while he's still living in your house and you are able to provide him with plenty of supervised driving. You don't want to send him out to college without having this life skill under his belt. If he doesn't drive regularly, no problem -- but he will know how.

 

[mom2rtk]

Yes, what you're describing is exactly what I see: The kids who "remain involved" are the kids whose parents have more money and are able to provide for them. Of course, it's not a 100% true thing -- exceptions abound -- but it's a general truth.

I also know of a few kids who are driving -- with their parents' knowledge and blessing -- without a license and without insurance. I first became aware of this years ago when one of my students asked me if I'd Xerox his driver's license for him. Our county policy is that if a student is attending a dance at another high school, the student must provide a Xerox of his license so the school knows who's in their building /the student's age. I agreed to make a copy, but when he handed me his license, the face was all scratched out, and it wasn't his name. Clearly he was trying to pull a fast one, and I refused to help him. He laughed and explained that it was his cousin's old license. He said, "Everyone does it." I asked him if he is actually able to use the license with the face scratched out, and he admitted that he's never been stopped by the police. I believe that: In 30-something years of driving, I've only been stopped a handful of times. My oldest has been driving 4 years and has never been stopped. I felt awfully unaware that day, but since then I've become aware of other kids doing the same thing. Apparently their parents are able to scrape together $1000 or so for an old beat-up car, and one of the ways they afford it is to bypass what you and I consider "the necessities".

The real moral: Don't skimp on your own uninsured motorist insurance.

I know a few kids who aren't interested in driving AT ALL -- often it's fear underneath this issue. When I was a teen, I knew no one who wasn't chomping at the bit to drive. One of my dear friends didn't drive until she was 18, but that was because her parents forbid it. One of my brothers waited to drive, but that was because our parents had insisted upon some rather stringent requirements, and he had decided it was just easier NOT to drive. I agree with you, however, that you should push him to learn while he's still living in your house and you are able to provide him with plenty of supervised driving. You don't want to send him out to college without having this life skill under his belt. If he doesn't drive regularly, no problem -- but he will know how.

Wow. I have to say that's a new one to me.

Our boys are 19 and 21. So we have had access to a wide range of teen driving or non-driving stories in recent years. But I'm happy to say I haven't heard a single story of kids just driving without ever getting a license. I suppose that's because once they get licensed they'd be required to be insured?

Our oldest really didn't want to drive, so we didn't push him. It wasn't because of the insurance cost, it was because I didn't want to put a hesitant driver on the streets. I look at that as a mistake now. Better to work through that hesitation before driving daily on city streets becomes a necessity.

Our 19 year old son's best friend is leaving for school in the fall and still has no plans of getting a license. We actually see a lot of delayed licenses around here because of the additional insurance costs. Lots of those stories. Thankfully no stories of any of them actually defying the law and driving without a license.

 

[MrsPete]

I don't see that parents are doing their children any favors by "not allowing them to work" at all during their high school years. Even just during the summer would be good experience for them. But kids can handle school, homework, extra-curricular activities AND a part-time job as well.

I have to disagree. They have a few years to be teens, to be part of the basketball team, to be involved in clubs, to give their grades everything they have. They have so many years ahead of them to work, and they can never get these years back.

My oldest walked away from high school with some college credit, scholarships totaling about 60% of her college education, a CNA license, and enough experience volunteering in the hospital to be SURE she wanted to become a nurse. Oh, and a good citizen award. If she'd been putting in 2-3 days a week at a part-time job, I'm certain she wouldn't have had all that. She did work in the summer, but she gained all the positives of a part-time job (responsibility, working as a team) through her classes and community involvement -- and she certainly came out ahead financially because of the scholarships.

 

[mom2rtk]

I have to disagree. They have a few years to be teens, to be part of the basketball team, to be involved in clubs, to give their grades everything they have. They have so many years ahead of them to work, and they can never get these years back.

My oldest walked away from high school with some college credit, scholarships totaling about 60% of her college education, a CNA license, and enough experience volunteering in the hospital to be SURE she wanted to become a nurse. Oh, and a good citizen award. If she'd been putting in 2-3 days a week at a part-time job, I'm certain she wouldn't have had all that. She did work in the summer, but she gained all the positives of a part-time job (responsibility, working as a team) through her classes and community involvement -- and she certainly came out ahead financially because of the scholarships.

We actually have trouble keeping kids on sports teams here because once they turn 16 they all start working. I'm just not a huge fan of kids working during the school year. I worked in high school but only during the summer months. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Angelhalo]

I was reading the thread on when you have your kids start paying their own car insurance and some people were saying as soon as they got their license.

I'm wondering how a high school kid who is in school can work enough hours making minimum wage to earn enough to pay for a car, car insurance, and gasoline like some parents ask them to do. On top of that, how do they have time to do homework and study? I guess extracurriculars are out? Do colleges these days put a fair amount of weight on extracurriculars when considering a college application?

Do these kids ever sleep?

My first car in high school had a payment each month of $115 and insurance was another $45. I was easily able to pay for it with my part time job at a laser tag arena. I worked Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. I was an A/B student in AP classes and I also did Show Choir and bible club as extra curriculars. I never really had any issues and I had lots friends that I did things with as well. Now if I had a car that was out of my price point that had like a $300 monthly payment or something, that might have been a different story. But, with a car chosen within my means, I had no issues.

 

[MrsPete]

Our boys are 19 and 21. So we have had access to a wide range of teen driving or non-driving stories in recent years. But I'm happy to say I haven't heard a single story of kids just driving without ever getting a license. I suppose that's because once they get licensed they'd be required to be insured?

That's one of the reasons. I've really been more aware of this because my own children attend the high school where I teach. They're the ones who told me that kids park on the back-back-back row of the parking lot because no school personnel ever check back there to see if they have a parking sticker -- they've told me the kids park back there because they don't have a license and/or insurance and can't buy a parking sticker at school.

It's not only money. We have a fairly high number of kids who are in this country illegally, and they don't want to be "in the system".

I think nice people, people who follow the rules, people like us . . . just don't stop to think that some people simply don't bother with the rules. But, yeah, it's going on. I'd wager it's at least 5% of our juniors and seniors. Not the majority, by any means, but more than a few.

 

[nugov2]

I agree that everyone situation is different. When I grew up I had great grades and was involved in so much extra curricular. I often left for school at 7am and didn't get home until 10 pm. Would do homework in between activities in the HS cafeteria. I worked in the summer when I could, mostly babysitting and was a day camp counselor and the occasional p/t mall job. My parents paid for everything car/insurance/clothes related. As long as we worked hard and got good grades they supported us fully. My money was for me to go out and have fun with friends and to save for when I went away to college(all of that my parents paid for too. I had a p/t job my last two years in college but that was it). I plan to do the same for my children. We have the money to do so. If they work hard and are involved I think getting a job is just an added and unnecessary stress. There are lots of ways to get a good work ethic that don't involve a paycheck. I was heavily involved in the Lions Club Jrs. Leo club and was volunteering all through HS including volunteering at the VFW. Those were the most important learning experiences I had. I'd much rather my kids were volunteering their time than serving people at the local McDonalds.

 

[barkley]

I have to disagree. They have a few years to be teens, to be part of the basketball team, to be involved in clubs, to give their grades everything they have. They have so many years ahead of them to work, and they can never get these years back.

My oldest walked away from high school with some college credit, scholarships totaling about 60% of her college education, a CNA license, and enough experience volunteering in the hospital to be SURE she wanted to become a nurse. Oh, and a good citizen award. If she'd been putting in 2-3 days a week at a part-time job, I'm certain she wouldn't have had all that. She did work in the summer, but she gained all the positives of a part-time job (responsibility, working as a team) through her classes and community involvement -- and she certainly came out ahead financially because of the scholarships.

I view your dd's volunteer experience as unpaid work experience which provided her with many of the skills that will serve her well later in life. with some careers there aren't opportunities for teens to volunteer and see what actual 'work' is like, so some are completely unprepared for the realities when they have to become employed. I'm glad our high school has a graduation requirement that includes both volunteering as well as participation in an on the job mentorship program in the field the student wants to pursue.

I think it's fine if a parent doesn't require their teen to get a job, but to forbid them outright because they place a higher value on extracurriculars can be shortsighted. sure, if it comes down to student a and student b applying to the same college, with the same gpa, and the same ap courses, the admissions officer will be looking at their extracurricular activities-but if one had a part time job for an extended period over their high school career, demonstrating they know how to balance work, extra curricular, volunteer and school demands it's going to carry allot more influence on that admissions decision than their peer who did not work but did get the lead in their high school musical.

 

[Colleen27]

I know a few kids who aren't interested in driving AT ALL -- often it's fear underneath this issue. When I was a teen, I knew no one who wasn't chomping at the bit to drive. One of my dear friends didn't drive until she was 18, but that was because her parents forbid it. One of my brothers waited to drive, but that was because our parents had insisted upon some rather stringent requirements, and he had decided it was just easier NOT to drive. I agree with you, however, that you should push him to learn while he's still living in your house and you are able to provide him with plenty of supervised driving. You don't want to send him out to college without having this life skill under his belt. If he doesn't drive regularly, no problem -- but he will know how.

A lot of teens around here don't drive, and for most it doesn't seem to be fear - it is a combination of financial concerns and lack of need. Insurance costs here are crazy - I pay almost $100/mo for liability only as a 30-something mother with a clean driving record and a minivan, and I've been told to expect that to more than double when DS gets his license. Since most families in our blue-collar community can't easily cover an extra $1200+/year, many delay having their kids start driving or tell them they have to work to cover the costs... but even the latter plan can be problematic because there aren't a lot of teen jobs in town, competition to get them is fierce, and the parents are taking a risk because if the child screws up a job the insurance still needs to be paid. Once the teen is licensed there's no going back; working or not working, driving or not driving, the insurance rate takes him/her into account.

When I was a teen we all got our licenses ASAP except a few whose parents used a license as leverage to get them to bring up their grades, but when I was 16 my insurance was $56/mo, gas was $1/gal, and I was making $7/hr. A teen in my community learning to drive now will pay roughly triple that in insurance, quadruple the gas price, and earn maybe $1/hr more in pay... It doesn't surprise me that there's not the same excitement over driving that my generation had!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

A lot of teens around here don't drive, and for most it doesn't seem to be fear - it is a combination of financial concerns and lack of need. Insurance costs here are crazy - I pay almost $100/mo for liability only as a 30-something mother with a clean driving record and a minivan, and I've been told to expect that to more than double when DS gets his license. Since most families in our blue-collar community can't easily cover an extra $1200+/year, many delay having their kids start driving or tell them they have to work to cover the costs... but even the latter plan can be problematic because there aren't a lot of teen jobs in town, competition to get them is fierce, and the parents are taking a risk because if the child screws up a job the insurance still needs to be paid. Once the teen is licensed there's no going back; working or not working, driving or not driving, the insurance rate takes him/her into account.

When I was a teen we all got our licenses ASAP except a few whose parents used a license as leverage to get them to bring up their grades, but when I was 16 my insurance was $56/mo, gas was $1/gal, and I was making $7/hr. A teen in my community learning to drive now will pay roughly triple that in insurance, quadruple the gas price, and earn maybe $1/hr more in pay... It doesn't surprise me that there's not the same excitement over driving that my generation had!

I'm a bit older & in my day, I made $3.10 per hour & paid $1.50 for gas. So, really not much different than $7.35/hour & $3.50 for gas. But , NOBODY waited to drive. And in those days, you couldn't get a permit at 15 like today. I got my permit & license on the same day - 1 day after my 16th birthday. And that was common.

So, while the current cost of gas is probably a factor, it can't be the only one.