How do parents & teachers feel about this bill?

[castleview]

How teachers should be evaluated is tough. Some superintendents want to look good to a Bd. of Ed that only wants a small budgetary increase. At my husband's school, everyone has to have to some negative criticism in their evaluations in case the superintendent needs to cut a teacher - she'll have documented backup even if the criticism is beyond petty.

It's also been my experience that certain teachers are in good with certain administrators. Many times this goes back to them having worked together when the administrator was a teacher. I've seen teachers have their friends in the guidance dept. steer kids toward their classes so they only have to teach good kids or seniors. In the meantime, good teachers end up leaving because of blatant favoritism. I could totally see this reflecting in pay.

I don't know what the answer is. I wish I did.

 

[themilesfamily]

I don't know. I know I am evaluated on the results of my work, even if that work relies on the work of others.

But are you being asked to do the impossible?

Honestly, if you're a teacher with a child who hates authority, hates school, adamantly doesn't want to be there, checks out mentally the entire time you're teaching a lesson plan you've worked your butt off to put together -- what in the name of all that is holy are you supposed to do about it within the confines of your classroom?

I definitely think there needs to be educational reform -- not all kids are going to college, not all kids are going to successfully complete an academic program. I don't think that's the end of the world. I think there should be more apprenticeship programs, more emphasis into moving kids who aren't school-oriented out of the classroom and into work environments. Why force them to sit in a geometry class that will mean zero, zilch to them ever?

But don't penalize teachers when they're simply doing the job they've been given within the confines of the current public school system.

 

[Liberty Belle]

It ignores the fact that parental involvement is the biggest indicator of student success. If education isn't stressed and valued at home, it's rare that a student will be enough of a self-starter to succeed.

It also ignores the fact that a lot of kids are coming to school hungry and tired. Teachers can only do so much. We'd be better off addressing hunger and poverty if we want to effect student success.

Plus, some students just aren't capable of doing that well. There are many children who are below average in IQ, yet not low enough to qualify for special education.

 

[Took]

I don't know. I know I am evaluated on the results of my work, even if that work relies on the work of others.

Explain, please. In what way? For what?

What if we decided to pay doctors based on whether or not they cured us? How many doctors do you think we'd have?

 

[padams]

I like the idea of merit pay for teachers. All teachers are not equal, and the better ones deserve more money. How do you assess how well they teach? How do you assess any employee? Timeliness, preparedness, attitude, work product (student progress, test scores, classroom evaluations), level of education, etc.....

 

[Liberty Belle]

But are you being asked to do the impossible?

Honestly, if you're a teacher with a child who hates authority, hates school, adamantly doesn't want to be there, checks out mentally the entire time you're teaching a lesson plan you've worked your butt off to put together -- what in the name of all that is holy are you supposed to do about it within the confines of your classroom?

I definitely think there needs to be educational reform -- not all kids are going to college, not all kids are going to successfully complete an academic program. I don't think that's the end of the world. I think there should be more apprenticeship programs, more emphasis into moving kids who aren't school-oriented out of the classroom and into work environments. Why force them to sit in a geometry class that will mean zero, zilch to them ever?

But don't penalize teachers when they're simply doing the job they've been given within the confines of the current public school system.

Exactly. My husband, as a manager, gets in trouble if his employees do not do well, but he has the option of firing them if they do not improve.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I think it's bad. The problem with poor student performance starts at home with the parents. Well, I guess today we say parent.

Um, my mother raised me as a single mother until I was 10 and I always did well in school. I find your last sentence offensive. Oh, and I don't know what you mean by "today," but I'm 42 years old, so that was quite a while ago.

 

[golfgal]

I don't know. I know I am evaluated on the results of my work, even if that work relies on the work of others.

Give specific examples.

But are you being asked to do the impossible?

Honestly, if you're a teacher with a child who hates authority, hates school, adamantly doesn't want to be there, checks out mentally the entire time you're teaching a lesson plan you've worked your butt off to put together -- what in the name of all that is holy are you supposed to do about it within the confines of your classroom?

Exactly and if a worker in your group isn't performing, they get fired-teachers can't fire kids that only fill in the bubbles to get done with the test.

 

[ticktock]

Here's the problem:

The best teachers are given the worst behaved kids because they are "good with them." The kid might not learn, but the teacher can keep him from misbehaving and dominating the class.

Also, can you say corruption, grade changing, dumbing down tests?

YES. Bring back separate classes for kids with serious behavior problems. Bring back reform schools. Bring back the ability for teachers to separate kids into groups of like ability so that she can tailor lesson plans for each group not dumb down the whole class. Even better bring back remedial classes.

This is what brought the school system were it is. No parent wants their precious snowflake singled out to go to the bad kids class or the remedial class so one teacher is dealing with 25 kids at wildly different academic levels let alone the ones who are bouncing off the walls and assaulting other students and teachers.

On top of this though we need to get rid of the really bad teachers. A couple bad apples spoils it for everyone.

 

[daughtersrus]

I don't know. I know I am evaluated on the results of my work, even if that work relies on the work of others.

When you are evaluated it's likely that the others have some incentive to do a good job (keeping their job, raises of their own..) so you can't really compare that to teachers being evaluated on the test scores of his/her students.

 

[ticktock]

Exactly. My husband, as a manager, gets in trouble if his employees do not do well, but he has the option of firing them if they do not improve.

As I said in my previous post put the problem kids in special classes for behavioral or academic problems. They would get the individual attention they need from people trained to deal with it and the regular teachers could get on with their job.

 

[daughtersrus]

As I said in my previous post put the problem kids in special classes for behavioral or academic problems. They would get the individual attention they need from people trained to deal with it and the regular teachers could get on with their job.

How would the teachers of these classes then be evaluated? Would they not get their raises because they had a group of bad kids?

 

[tarheel618]

YES. Bring back separate classes for kids with serious behavior problems. Bring back reform schools. Bring back the ability for teachers to separate kids into groups of like ability so that she can tailor lesson plans for each group not dumb down the whole class. Even better bring back remedial classes.

This is what brought the school system were it is. No parent wants their precious snowflake singled out to go to the bad kids class or the remedial class so one teacher is dealing with 25 kids at wildly different academic levels let alone the ones who are bouncing off the walls and assaulting other students and teachers.

On top of this though we need to get rid of the really bad teachers. A couple bad apples spoils it for everyone.

But with this bill no one would want to teach the classrooms listed above. If 1/2 your yearly salary is based on student's performance on 1 day of testing, would you be willing to gamble your family income on the above student's performance?

If you want performance pay, then education can't be free any more. Charge all parents tuition. Students who make gains in a year then can earn a rebate. Until you hit the parents in the pocketbook, and make all parents realize that education is important nothing is going to change. If parents realize that it is going to cost them more money if their child isn't doing their homework or passing a class, then you will have education reform.

 

[golfgal]

But with this bill no one would want to teach the classrooms listed above. If 1/2 your yearly salary is based on student's performance on 1 day of testing, would you be willing to gamble your family income on the above student's performance?

If you want performance pay, then education can't be free any more. Charge all parents tuition. Students who make gains in a year then can earn a rebate. Until you hit the parents in the pocketbook, and make all parents realize that education is important nothing is going to change. If parents realize that it is going to cost them more money if their child isn't doing their homework or passing a class, then you will have education reform.

Great way to turn the US into a 3rd world country

 

[englishteacha]

In a way, I think this is like blaming a dentist for a child having cavities. The dentist can teach the child how to care for his/her teeth, but if the child doesn't do it properly, or doesn't have support at home to encourage them to do it, it's likely he/she will get a cavity or two. Is that the dentist's fault?

 

[MM27]

Here's the problem:
The best teachers are given the worst behaved kids because they are "good with them."

That's exactly what happens in my school. If you can handle the behavior problems, you get them. Most of the time the behavior problems are also academically behind. The principals do this because then they get fewer referrals and fewer discipline cases sent to the office.

I bet this has something to do with the US Department of Education's "Race To The Top Fund":

http://www2.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2010/03/03042010.html

In NJ, the NJEA is not supporting it ...

http://www.njea.org/page.aspx?a=4417&z=1&pz=

I don't know why any state would go for it except for the fact that they want the extra money that comes along with it. It sounds good when they say NCLB is being overhauled, but changing the name and putting in new unachievable standards doesn't make it any better.

Any time the topic of teachers' salaries/raises/etc. comes up, there are a bunch of teachers who state that student performance is not a good measure of success. Some arguments for this are more valid than others.

I'm curious to know - how would TEACHERS assess success? I think merit based pay is a necessity for teachers and frankly, I see all school districts moving towards this eventually. There is tremendous pressure for all government employees to justify their pay. Many other types of government employees have already moved to a merit-based system. Teachers are behind.

So the question is, how should merit be measured?

I teach in an urban district where 90-something percent of my school is on free/reduced lunch. Low SES, mostly single parent families, many kids being raised by grandparents, many with one or both parent in jail...

So I shouldn't get a raise but a teacher that works in the suburbs where the parents are involved, have good jobs, look at education as a high priority and expect their children to go to college, should?

What do you think happens in schools? Do you think we're left to our own devices? We always have to hand in data collected from student assessments. I have to submit a planbook twice a month on the 15th and 30th. My supervisor reads and comments on them. Same for the gradebook. My vice-principal does walk throughs every day. She comes into the room, does informal observations (meaning she doesn't write, just watches) and she will even talk to the kids. She always asks them, "What are you doing in math today? Why is that something you need to learn?" My principal also does these walk throughs (we call them drive bys ) and we have a new Superintendent that has already started with observations and I hear he is going to be very present in the schools, unlike our last one. We have to post our objectives for every lesson during the day on our boards so that any visitor to the room knows what you are working on.

We also get formal observations where they sit for one or two periods and watch a full lesson from start to finish. They write a running narrative of the lesson and then comments are made and discussed at our eval. meeting. Then we get an evaluation that is a culmination of everything for the year. There are various levels on the evaluation from Basic to Distinguished.

If they are going to base my salary on student performance, then they better divide the classes fairly. One of my two classes this year has 20 out of 22 students that failed the NJASK test in 3rd grade.

My big question with merit pay is, how would the specials teachers get their pay? Will the gym teacher only get their raise if all the kids can pass the Presidential Physical Fitness test? Will the Art teacher only get theirs if the kids can all paint or draw a given scene? I have a bunch of boys that can't cut or color so I'll let the art teacher know he should be really worried.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

How does this apply to students with special needs? As I said in a previous post, will this mean that IEP goals going to be lowered so that every student will meet/exceed the goals so that the teacher can get a raise?

I don't think that it's fair to compare other professions to teachers when determining their worth. What other job determines that value based what someone else does or doesn't do? As I said, my DD's teacher could teach her until she's blue in the face, but DD will never be close to grade level. It's not because she's a bad teacher but because DD just isn't capable of doing what other students her age are. That's not to say that she isn't learning something because she is but she will never be able to pass a test.

Teachers of students with special needs should be treated like other teachers. The important thing is not to base merit pay on the absolute performance of students but on how the perform relative to how they have performed in the past. A teacher that takes a student body that scored in the 10th percentile last year and has them scoring in the 30th percentile has significantly outperformed a teacher that takes a student body performing in the 80th percentile and just keeps them there.

Honestly, I'm not wedded to the idea of using test scores as the basis for merit based pay. I'd prefer whatever system works that best assesses the performance of the teacher. That's certainly not seniority based or "special classes that they've taken" based. It could be based on peer evaluations, change in student performance by any of a variety of metrics, administration evaluations, or whatever teachers can come up with the appears reasonable.

As for people being paid based on other people's performance, that happens all the time. Just about every manager or supervisor is paid that way. The system isn't perfect, but it's much better than the way teach pay works. It's better for motivating people. It's more fair. Most importantly, it leads to better performance. That's why companies do it.

 

[N.Bailey]

It sounds to me like the good voters in Florida should be making some major changes come election time.

All they will do is push the good teachers into another occupation and then the school system will be full of the handful (small minority) of poor teachers we have now.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Teachers of students with special needs should be treated like other teachers. The important thing is not to base merit pay on the absolute performance of students but on how the perform relative to how they have performed in the past. A teacher that takes a student body that scored in the 10th percentile last year and has them scoring in the 30th percentile has significantly outperformed a teacher that takes a student body performing in the 80th percentile and just keeps them there.

Honestly, I'm not wedded to the idea of using test scores as the basis for merit based pay. I'd prefer whatever system works that best assesses the performance of the teacher. That's certainly not seniority based or "special classes that they've taken" based. It could be based on peer evaluations, change in student performance by any of a variety of metrics, administration evaluations, or whatever teachers can come up with the appears reasonable.

As for people being paid based on other people's performance, that happens all the time. Just about every manager or supervisor is paid that way. The system isn't perfect, but it's much better than the way teach pay works. It's better for motivating people. It's more fair. Most importantly, it leads to better performance. That's why companies do it.

Again, they have the option of firing people who perform poorly.

 

[tarheel618]

Great way to turn the US into a 3rd world country

I like it no more than you do, but how do you suggest making parents accountable?

That is what this bill is about making schools like businesses and each student is a dollar bill.

Everyone compares teaching to a business model but you can't do that when dealing with human beings.

If you work in a company and you get defective parts you send the order back. You can't do that with children, they come with many bags and things that prevent them from performing their best. Is that the teachers fault? This bill only attacks the educator not the parents who aren't that doing their job.