How are we not more outraged about these shootings?

[cornflkgrl]

Exactly why you don't fight with the police and resist arrest. Comply with what they tell you and at least have a chance to make a case of how you were mistreated.

I would like to point out this is in regards to the Baton Rouge incident. I don't know what happened in the traffic stop yet. We are only hearing one side of the story. People are speaking to the good character of the deceased but I think we need to hear from the police.

It isn't fighting to ask why you are being detained or to refuse an unlawful/unwarranted search of your belongings. I would not physically "resist arrest" on purpose, but might point out that as a female with some past issues..if a male jumps on me --cop or not -- I will react instinctively and I don't know what that will look like until it happens. It is involuntary. I suspect many people react this way if someone grabs them and tries to cuff them. Does anyone calmly lie on the ground while someone knees them in the back?!

If someone is gonna arrest me, my Miranda rights should be read, police better have observed my involvement in a crime, or have a warrant (or probable cause)...or I better just have been an idiot and have a pipe sitting on my dash or I'm driving a lab or something crazy obvious go-to-jail illegal).

If they are just hassling me (not giving me a ticket or anything), I'm going to ask if I'm under arrest and if not I'm going to ask (politely) if we can say our goodbyes. If they ask to search my trunk but don't give me a warrant or a reason, I might say no. Yeah I might take a ride somewhere so they can finally search it and find I have nothing or we might sit by the road waiting for hours. But searching without cause should not be made easy for them. And my cellphone and that of my companions is always recording if we are pulled over. And there is an attorney on speed dial.

I do realize now a days, asserting any of my liberties could get me shot (less likely for me as I'm white and female...but not impossible) and apparently a lot of citizens don't think there is anything wrong with that because I didn't blindly comply with authority. Even though I was not the one in the wrong. Authority can be wrong.

Back to the actual news story though. I don't think anyone in this news story DIDNT comply. And it still didn't work out for them. They still died.

 

[CPanther95]

Can I please ask what color you are? As a black woman, I can't imagine anyone in my family being able to get away that. I find it absolutely amazing that the officer knew you had a gun, gave you an order, you REFUSED to comply and are here today to tell the story.

About as white as my avatar.

But if I were concerned about bias, I wouldn't do anything different - in fact I'd be more afraid to do anything different. I'd rather try to convince the officer to come up with a safer solution that will keep him at ease - than to have a dash cam showing me drawing my gun out of its holster while he's standing next to my car.

My actions aren't to try and exploit my "whiteness" to try and see what I can get away with or to ever try to prove some constitutional point. My actions are always geared around doing anything I can to avoid getting shot - I'm selfish that way. And despite my respect for law enforcement and acknowledgement of what a difficult job they have, you aren't always dealing with officers that are the best "critical thinkers" with an abundance of common sense. I'm not going to put my life at risk by ignoring my own judgment and just trusting that the person I'm dealing with is fully qualified to deal with every situation.

 

[cornflkgrl]

Growing up in a rough neighborhood the cops who grew up in that same neighborhood or close by were always the "cool" cops. They didn't feel the need to nit pick crap that outside cops would. They knew the ins and outs of the neighborhood. There is no way they would bother the CD man because he was just a staple of our community. Just like the fruit stand lady or the guy selling pinchos on the corner.

The city I grew up in let go of most of their cops and went to a county police force a few years ago. Hiring many cops as "part time" which means they don't have to take the ctest. They just have to pass the academy. They can't take their guns home either. As soon as it started I felt that it was going to be a problem. Only time will tell.

I felt this way with the rural cops out West too. When it takes one guy a half hour to show up to a call in a state where everyone carries...he has to know ways to diffuse things other than using his weapon. The cops were very calm and friendly and good at talking out of control drunk people down. They didn't escalate traffic stops.

 

[asta]

It isn't fighting to ask why you are being detained or to refuse an unlawful/unwarranted search of your belongings. I would not physically "resist arrest" on purpose, but might point out that as a female with some past issues..if a male jumps on me --cop or not -- I will react instinctively and I don't know what that will look like until it happens. It is involuntary. I suspect many people react this way if someone grabs them and tries to cuff them. Does anyone calmly lie on the ground while someone knees them in the back?!

If someone is gonna arrest me, my Miranda rights should be read, police better have observed my involvement in a crime, or have a warrant (or probable cause)...or I better just have been an idiot and have a pipe sitting on my dash or I'm driving a lab or something crazy obvious go-to-jail illegal).

If they are just hassling me (not giving me a ticket or anything), I'm going to ask if I'm under arrest and if not I'm going to ask (politely) if we can say our goodbyes. If they ask to search my trunk but don't give me a warrant or a reason, I might say no. Yeah I might take a ride somewhere so they can finally search it and find I have nothing or we might sit by the road waiting for hours. But searching without cause should not be made easy for them. And my cellphone and that of my companions is always recording if we are pulled over. And there is an attorney on speed dial.

I do realize now a days, asserting any of my liberties could get me shot (less likely for me as I'm white and female...but not impossible) and apparently a lot of citizens don't think there is anything wrong with that because I didn't blindly comply with authority. Even though I was not the one in the wrong. Authority can be wrong.

Back to the actual news story though. I don't think anyone in this news story DIDNT comply. And it still didn't work out for them. They still died.

I guess we think differently. I have nothing to hide. I would comply with anything the police asked me to do. For whatever reason in our backgrounds our approach to these issues is very different. And that obviously colors what we see and take away from news reports. You see compliance in Baton Rouge. I see a man who had just been reported on a 911 call for pulling a gun on someone. I see him resisting arrest as the officers are wrestling with him on the hood of a car eventually ending up on the ground. The reports say a stun gun was used first and he did not stop resisting the officers. From the videos it is clear that he is still trying to lift his body while the two officers are on top of him. None of that behavior is compliance.

I am not arguing that he deserved to be shot, just that he put himself at risk by resisting.

 

[Dznypal]

I am so sick and tired of hearing these same old stories---

no one ever mentions that if these people werent doing what they werent supposed to be doing in the first place whether it be stealing raping or anything else they feel they have the right to do

at the very least if they just do what their told to do none of this would happen either

I just hate all these videos people are always taking--first off if I see people fighting Im going to call police even if one is an officer Im certainly not going to video it

these videos never show what lead up to the person getting shot--waving a gun at an officer-hitting him with there car and any number of things

where I live we had an mentally ill person sleeping in the park that was kicked out of the his house cause the family couldnt handle him didnt comply with the officer--officer feared for his safety and shot--officer didnt know what was the issue with the guy

then the family was all upset--well why did they kick him out why didnt they get help for him??

on top of all this it happened at a vetrans park that city leaders where actually thinking of changing the name of the park to the guy that was shot there!!!!!!!!!

WTH city hall got so much flak it was dropped give me a flipping break

none of this is going to end until people learn to act like civilized human beings

 

[cornflkgrl]

I guess we think differently. I have nothing to hide. I would comply with anything the police asked me to do.

So if they told you to strip naked, would you? If they requested your cell phone for no reason...just so they could see who you called, would you? Where does the compliance stop?

I too am a law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide. So, then, why should I abandon my rights?

 

[disneyjunkie]

I am so sick and tired of hearing these same old stories---

no one ever mentions that if these people werent doing what they werent supposed to be doing in the first place whether it be stealing raping or anything else they feel they have the right to do

at the very least if they just do what their told to do none of this would happen either

I just hate all these videos people are always taking--first off if I see people fighting Im going to call police even if one is an officer Im certainly not going to video it

these videos never show what lead up to the person getting shot--waving a gun at an officer-hitting him with there car and any number of things

where I live we had an mentally ill person sleeping in the park that was kicked out of the his house cause the family couldnt handle him didnt comply with the officer--officer feared for his safety and shot--officer didnt know what was the issue with the guy

then the family was all upset--well why did they kick him out why didnt they get help for him??

on top of all this it happened at a vetrans park that city leaders where actually thinking of changing the name of the park to the guy that was shot there!!!!!!!!!

WTH city hall got so much flak it was dropped give me a flipping break

none of this is going to end until people learn to act like civilized human beings

The young man killed in his car did not commit a crime!

 

[disneyjunkie]

About as white as my avatar.

But if I were concerned about bias, I wouldn't do anything different - in fact I'd be more afraid to do anything different. I'd rather try to convince the officer to come up with a safer solution that will keep him at ease - than to have a dash cam showing me drawing my gun out of its holster while he's standing next to my car.

My actions aren't to try and exploit my "whiteness" to try and see what I can get away with or to ever try to prove some constitutional point. My actions are always geared around doing anything I can to avoid getting shot - I'm selfish that way. And despite my respect for law enforcement and acknowledgement of what a difficult job they have, you aren't always dealing with officers that are the best "critical thinkers" with an abundance of common sense. I'm not going to put my life at risk by ignoring my own judgment and just trusting that the person I'm dealing with is fully qualified to deal with every situation.

WOW, talk about white privilege.

 

[cornflkgrl]

where I live we had an mentally ill person sleeping in the park that was kicked out of the his house cause the family couldnt handle him didnt comply with the officer--officer feared for his safety and shot--officer didnt know what was the issue with the guy

So a homeless man suffering from a mental illness was killed by police for not complying and because the officer didn't know what was wrong with him? And that's just okay?

 

[DizBelle]

Indeed, you can see them removing the gun from his pocket AFTER they shot him. The gun never came out. Some people, maybe, shouldn't be police officers. I think one officer "found" the gun while they were struggling (e.g., felt it), yelled "he's got a gun" (albeit not out, and not being used) and the other over reacted and shot him.

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you:

911 caller: There's a guy here with a gun!
Dispatch: Is the gun out?
911 caller: No, but I can see it sticking out of his waistband and he's acting in a threating way.
Dispatch: Ok, call us back when the gun is out.

911 caller: There's a guy here with a gun!
Dispatch: Is the gun out?
911 caller: Yes, he took it out and is holding it in his hand and waving it around
Dispatch: Has he shot anyone?
911 caller: Ok, call us back when he shoots someone

Eventually, we are going to get to the point where no police are dispatched until ACTUAL, VIOLENT crime has occurred. And you'll be lucky if shey show up within 45 minutes because there won't be many cops left. I can see fewer and fewer entering the field.

 

[DizBelle]

I think a big issue is putting cops who are from the suburbs in rough neighborhoods and diverse neighborhoods WITH LITTLE TRAINING. IMO they come in with preconceived notions and are scared sh**less. Nothing worse than a scared man with a gun.

Wouldn't it be considered racist if you trained police officers differently depending on wheren they have to police? There would be a big uproar about this if it came to light that this is going on.

 

[CPanther95]

I guess we think differently. I have nothing to hide. I would comply with anything the police asked me to do.

That's the attitude of most people, and it's not a problem if you have no fear of any negative consequences coming from your cooperation. The problem is when the police start to believe that because its common, it's what they can demand from everybody - even if the law doesn't support it.

If the police started confronting suburban soccer-moms at the local Wal-Mart, demanded to see ID from her and all the passengers in her car, then had them all sit on the curb for 15 minutes while they ran them all for warrants - the outrage would be immediate and fierce. But we have an entire segment of the population that live in these (as previously labeled) "rough areas" that would think absolutely nothing is out of the ordinary for an officer to request IDs from everyone in a car at a routine traffic stop - or that would produce a driver's license when stopped by a police officer on the street that requested their ID. They actually think they have no choice to comply despite it being a clear violation of their 4th Amendment rights.

So there's nothing wrong if someone with "nothing to hide" decides to waive any of their rights, but there's something wrong when everyone else is expected to waive their rights just because it has become "normal" to do so.

 

[jevs]

now this guy may have done everything right but I have definitely seen people fight with officers. I think everyone needs to be taught how to react when stopped.

I am a white middle class woman probably a group that is statistically extremely unlikly to be shot and even I was taught that if I am stopped to only get out licence and registration if I can do it well before the cop gets to my car and have them in plain sight. Not to make sudden movements and to calmly explain before I do things.

so when I was stopped for having no sticker 2 days after I bought my first car (rule here is you have a week to get one) I calmly stated when I had no sticker and said "The paper work is in my glove box would you like me to get it" and waited until he said yes to reach over and open it.

I also work on a miltary base and one of the things we tell people due to the guards being armed is that we don't care whose approval you have at the moment when your standing in front of an 18 year old holding a semi-automatic rifle he is always right. If he is not right you can let your supervisor know and they can have a discussion with his superiors after you are no longer standing in front of a gun.

No one has been shot on the base but we would like to keep it that way.

Thanks for this. Something for me to keep in mind when traveling in the states.

 

[cornflkgrl]

That's the attitude of most people, and it's not a problem if you have no fear of any negative consequences coming from your cooperation. The problem is when the police start to believe that because its common, it's what they can demand from everybody - even if the law doesn't support it.

If the police started confronting suburban soccer-moms at the local Wal-Mart, demanded to see ID from her and all the passengers in her car, then had them all sit on the curb for 15 minutes while they ran them all for warrants - the outrage would be immediate and fierce. But we have an entire segment of the population that live in these (as previously labeled) "rough areas" that would think absolutely nothing is out of the ordinary for an officer to request IDs from everyone in a car at a routine traffic stop - or that would produce a driver's license when stopped by a police officer on the street that requested their ID. They actually think they have no choice to comply despite it being a clear violation of their 4th Amendment rights.

So there's nothing wrong if someone with "nothing to hide" decides to waive any of their rights, but there's something wrong when everyone else is expected to waive their rights just because it has become "normal" to do so.

Thank you. My point exactly. Much better stated.

 

[cornflkgrl]

For whatever reason in our backgrounds our approach to these issues is very different. And that obviously colors what we see and take away from news reports.

I was raised by an attorney. Maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[CPanther95]

Thank you. My point exactly. Much better stated.

Glad to hear it. I was afraid going back and forth between a police shooting and pimento cheese might put so much strain on my brain that it would dull my ability to make coherent points on either subject.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

Wouldn't it be considered racist if you trained police officers differently depending on wheren they have to police? There would be a big uproar about this if it came to light that this is going on.

I think cops in general don't have enough training. They are poorly trained. At least in my area they are. I think they should be trained for all situations regardless of where they will work.

 

[kimblebee]

I am so sick and tired of hearing these same old stories---

no one ever mentions that if these people werent doing what they werent supposed to be doing in the first place whether it be stealing raping or anything else they feel they have the right to do

at the very least if they just do what their told to do none of this would happen either

I just hate all these videos people are always taking--first off if I see people fighting Im going to call police even if one is an officer Im certainly not going to video it

these videos never show what lead up to the person getting shot--waving a gun at an officer-hitting him with there car and any number of things

where I live we had an mentally ill person sleeping in the park that was kicked out of the his house cause the family couldnt handle him didnt comply with the officer--officer feared for his safety and shot--officer didnt know what was the issue with the guy

then the family was all upset--well why did they kick him out why didnt they get help for him??

on top of all this it happened at a vetrans park that city leaders where actually thinking of changing the name of the park to the guy that was shot there!!!!!!!!!

WTH city hall got so much flak it was dropped give me a flipping break

none of this is going to end until people learn to act like civilized human beings

What the....? THESE people? Stealing and raping?

Holy cow...

 

[mnrose]

I am so sick and tired of hearing these same old stories---

no one ever mentions that if these people werent doing what they werent supposed to be doing in the first place whether it be stealing raping or anything else they feel they have the right to do

at the very least if they just do what their told to do none of this would happen either

I just hate all these videos people are always taking--first off if I see people fighting Im going to call police even if one is an officer Im certainly not going to video it

these videos never show what lead up to the person getting shot--waving a gun at an officer-hitting him with there car and any number of things

where I live we had an mentally ill person sleeping in the park that was kicked out of the his house cause the family couldnt handle him didnt comply with the officer--officer feared for his safety and shot--officer didnt know what was the issue with the guy

then the family was all upset--well why did they kick him out why didnt they get help for him??

on top of all this it happened at a vetrans park that city leaders where actually thinking of changing the name of the park to the guy that was shot there!!!!!!!!!

WTH city hall got so much flak it was dropped give me a flipping break

none of this is going to end until people learn to act like civilized human beings

The guy in Minnesota WAS living like a civilized human being. Had a job of long standing. Beloved by his school community. Had a family. Oh, his "crime?" Driving with a burnt out tail light. I wasn't under the impression that this was "uncivilized" behavior. I've unwittingly done the same thing, and gauging by the number of vehicles I see driving around on our local roads without headlights or tail lights, I'm sure I'm not the only uncivilized scoff law.

What will it take to convince some people that indeed there are cops who shoot first and ask questions later? Who should, quite simply, not be allowed to wear a badge?

The woman who videotaped the incident was also EXTREMELY civilized. Polite. Doing what the officer asked, and you know what? She ended up outside the car, in handcuffs, and hauled off to jail. For what? WTH knows. Riding in a car while black, apparently. She also was not "uncivilized" but off to jail she went. I am disgusted by this Minnesota case.

 

[Dan Murphy]

I saw more news about the Baton Rouge shooting than I did about this 64-times-more-deplorable story:

More than 60 shot in Chicago over July 4th weekend
CHICAGO — At least 64 people were shot in the nation’s third largest city over the Independence Day weekend, including four people who were fatally wounded.
The grim violence in Chicago, which has recorded 329 homicides already this year, continued despite stepped up street patrols by theChicago Police Department and the arrest of 88 gang members in two of the city’s most violent neighborhoods ahead of the holiday weekend.
...
The homicide victims included a man in his 30s who police found shot in his abdomen, another man who was found shot dead in a lot across the street from an elementary school and a 31-year-old man who was killed outside his father’s auto shop. The wounded included a 5-year-old girl and her 8-year-old cousin, who were each shot in the leg as they played with sparklers Monday night, the Chicago Tribunereported.​

Not too minimize this weekly horrific loss of life and so many injuries, many of them life altering, but almost all of these many shootings continue to occur week after week in two neighborhoods. It is not city-wide.
Having said that, it seems like the police are dealing with two large problems. One is the many thousands of illegal guns, many military grade, along with these neighborhoods codes of silence. Most often, people do know who killed who, but remain silent in fear of retribution.
I would be so happy to see the murderous thugs taken off the streets, prosecuted and put away for life. But they are protected on the streets. Very sad.
As for the two shootings discussed in this thread, from what I have seen in the videos, both were totally unnecessary.