Homeschooling Debate

[nuzmom]

Auntpolly: It sounds like if you had a 6 year old, she/he would be very worth getting to know.

To go back a little bit so that I understand the question:

So what you're saying is that you don't like socialization, as it is defined in the article, because other people's 6 year olds are bad influences for your child? Honestly, I'm not trying to be flippant -- is that the point?

As a review, the article is explaining that the term socialization is "the process by which the norms and standards of our society are passed from one generation to the next." Based on that, the question "what about socialization?" translates into "who is going to pass the norms and standards of our society onto your children if they don't attend traditional schools?" The response was that another six-year old child wouldn't be "a good source of information on the correct standards of behavior in our family and in society as a whole." The point being that the question shouldn't be "what about socialization?", it should be "what about socializing?"

Having said that, if you are questioning whether I feel that another six year old would be a good source to pass on the correct standards of my family to my child, I would have to say "no". Granted, there are lots of wonderful six year olds and they have much to offer my children - that's exactly why we don't raise our child in isolation.

However, if you will tolerate a slightly longer post, I'd like to share an example. My children have a cousin that they see quite often. Unfortunately, he has had a very rough family life so far. He now lives with his grandmother because his mother is unfit (drugs) and his father has never known him. He intentionally disobeys all authority figures, swears, is very aggressive, rude, etc. He thinks it's ok to sneak downstairs while his grandmother is asleep and "surf the net", watch whatever he wants to on TV, and that it's "normal" for people to be drunk/angry/unloving. Oh, he just turned 8 years old. My kids do play with him under my supervision (because there's a risk of injury), but I think the point is that this child would not be the best choice to pass on his "norms and standards" to my children. Socializing - maybe (injury risk), socialization - no.

I hope this at least gives you a response to your question.

 

[auntpolly]

Auntpolly: It sounds like if you had a 6 year old, she/he would be very worth getting to know.

To go back a little bit so that I understand the question:


As a review, the article is explaining that the term socialization is "the process by which the norms and standards of our society are passed from one generation to the next." Based on that, the question "what about socialization?" translates into "who is going to pass the norms and standards of our society onto your children if they don't attend traditional schools?" The response was that another six-year old child wouldn't be "a good source of information on the correct standards of behavior in our family and in society as a whole." The point being that the question shouldn't be "what about socialization?", it should be "what about socializing?"

Having said that, if you are questioning whether I feel that another six year old would be a good source to pass on the correct standards of my family to my child, I would have to say "no". Granted, there are lots of wonderful six year olds and they have much to offer my children - that's exactly why we don't raise our child in isolation.

However, if you will tolerate a slightly longer post, I'd like to share an example. My children have a cousin that they see quite often. Unfortunately, he has had a very rough family life so far. He now lives with his grandmother because his mother is unfit (drugs) and his father has never known him. He intentionally disobeys all authority figures, swears, is very aggressive, rude, etc. He thinks it's ok to sneak downstairs while his grandmother is asleep and "surf the net", watch whatever he wants to on TV, and that it's "normal" for people to be drunk/angry/unloving. Oh, he just turned 8 years old. My kids do play with him under my supervision (because there's a risk of injury), but I think the point is that this child would not be the best choice to pass on his "norms and standards" to my children. Socializing - maybe (injury risk), socialization - no.

Oh, you know I really didn't want to debate anymore because honestly, I have no problem with any of you, but I just don't see how being in a classrooms with these kids is going to pass anything to anyone. I taught DD right and wrong and watched her like a hawk, and kids like this just made her sad. She'd come home and tell me - as early as preschool - about things that other kids had said or were going on with them, and it was a learning experience. Not just that, but even the ones that were the most sad cases had goodness in them, and DD often noticed it when I think even teachers didn't. I'd like to think that she, and others like her enriched their lives, a little too. But I was probably over protective in other ways - like I said, I think we're all doing the best we can for our kids.

 

[disneymom3]

auntpolly, I wanted to answer your question but I know you won't like my answer. Here goes anyway. Yep, I like that I have influence over who my children hang out with and that they are not exposed constantly to inappropriate behavior. PART of the reason we decided to hs after kindergarten was that DD was exhibitting major signs of anxiety--sleeplessness, tummy aches every morning that she had school (it was every other day) crying jags for no apparent reason. One day I was talking to her pediatrician about her issues on the phone, DD came in and asked to do something and when I said no she burst into hysterical tears. The doc asked if that was her usual reaction lately and when I said yes, she said to get her in there right away we needed to see a psychologist and get to the bottom of all of this. I digress a bit, but in the course of waiting for the first therapy appt. school ended and DDs anxiety completely went away. It turned out that there were two kids in her class that were.....I don't know, I guess hard to manage would be a good word. One of them had taken to spitting on his classmates and the other routinely threw chairs and materials about the room. Honestly, I don't think there is any good reason on the face of the earth that other 5 year olds need to be exposed to behavior like that. Is that the real world? I don't think so. Behavior like this is not tolerated day after day with virtually no consequences for the offender. And, yeah, I think 5 or 6 or even older is a bit young to have to deal with the "real world" anyway.

So yeah, I love that my kids don't have to be stuck with people who are bullies, obnoxious disrespectful etc. Would they choose those people to be their friends, no I am sure they would not given a choice, but they would be stuck in a classroom with them for 6 hours a day.

Have I handpicked all of my kids' friends? NO, I have not and do I believe that ALL kids in ps are like this? Most definitely not! Both DD and DSs best friends go to public school. (No, that is not right, DDs best friend goes to parochial school) My son has a friend at church who is one of the worst behaved children I have ever known. I don't say a word about it. DD has a friend who lives up the street that reminds me of Thelma in A Bargain For Frances and for quite awhile that was my favorite book because of the way the mom handles it. (Just be careful she says of this bratty little pill.)

I do want to clarify that we do not homeschool solely for this reason at all. It basically is just a nice perk.

OOPS, Aunt Polly, actually I don't think you are the person who will have a problem with my answer. I know you have said you accept and believe that we all are doing what we feel is best.

 

[auntpolly]

I think I understand your position now.

Want to start a stroller thread? Or a spanking one? I have big opinions on those, too.

 

[disneymom3]

I think I understand your position now.

Want to start a stroller thread? Or a spanking one? I have big opinions on those, too.

Sure what the hey!! I might be interested in what there is about strollers to have strong feelings about, but let's not go there on this thread

 

[auntpolly]

Sure what the hey!! I might be interested in what there is about strollers to have strong feelings about, but let's not go there on this thread

Oh, you'd be surprised - my DD aged 21 has a theory about strollers that would get her banned from this board!

 

[disneymom3]

All right, now you have to PM me the theory!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

All right, now you have to PM me the theory!

And you can forward it to me--a debate on strollers..uncharted territory for me. Didn't know that they was a possibility for them to be taboo.

 

[N.Bailey]

I really didn't want to get into this debate, so I've been avoiding it for some time. Here goes anyway.....

I know several families who home school and have done a tremendous job. They have some of the brightest kids in the area. The kids are courteous and in reality, they're probably ahead of those in the public school on an academic level. To these parents, I give HIGH kudos. They are what home schooling is all about.

Here's the rub for me though. My brother in law (hubby's brother) demands that his wife home school their children.

The eldest daughter is over 18 now and never completed the requirements for a diploma, so she simply does not have one. She has always been a bright girl and studying came pretty easy for her. She got by without anyone guiding her (though it would have helped) but as stated, she wasn't ever pushed to complete the requirements.

Now my other niece, who is 16, is the exact opposite. She just spent 3 days with us this week and I asked her what grade level she was in now? She just looked at me and said, "I don't go to school, I'm home schooled." I told her that I knew that, but what grade was she in for home schooling? She couldn't answer me. As we sat eating dinner, we started telling silly little jokes. My husband broke in with a really old one (we all knew the joke) so he asked my niece to spell top? She said she didn't want to, but finally said t o p. then he said hop and she had to think and said h o p ...then mop, etc... then he said, what do you do at a green light, to which she said stop and we all had our little laugh. Remember, she's 16 years old. He then says, spell silk (he was continuing the joke) and she just clammed up and started sweating, then got really upset and said she didn't want to hear anymore jokes. The truth of the matter is, she simply couldn't spell silk and she was embarrassed. Especially when my 13 year old jumped in with s i l k. In defense of my daughter, she didn't pick up the fact that her cousin couldn't spell the word or she would have never spelled it.

Now, I ask you, where is the state to intervene here? IMO, my brother in law and perhaps my sister in law too (though she's sorta a victim here too) should be fined. They refused and still refuse, or should I say, he refuses to allow either of their kids to get a descent education. They've done NOTHING to help them with their education and the best my brother in law can say is, my kids aren't going to no public school!!!! I also want to point out that we live in Hicksville, USA. We're 10 years behind in the times. There is little to no crime in our schools (I can't think of a single incident since my kids started school 8 & 9 years ago). I can speak from 1st hand knowledge that the teachers I've encountered for the most part have been pretty darn exceptional. I just don't get the argument at all.

So, while I support most parents who choose to home school, I don't support all. I'd even go as far to say that laws should be in place so that no child is able to slip through the system uneducated because they have STUPID parents. Just for the record, my brother in law doesn't care about anyone else's opinion either. We've all tried talking to him.

OH and another thing. My 16 year old niece, she sits at home (mostly by herself) playing video games all day. She has NO friends at all (expect her cousins) because there are NO kids that live near her.

 

[N.Bailey]

One other comment--I think that homeschooled kids should have to be tested yearly by an independent examination to evaluate their progress, just like kids in the public schools. While most homeschooled kids are at or above grade level, we all know that is not always the case. If a child is behind in an area, then the parents are aware of that and can make modifications to their lesson plans. Right now, there are very few states that have any kind of accountability practices for homeschooling.

After posting, I'm going back to read some of the responses and I agree with you 100%. If you've not read my prior post, please do so. Had testing been mandatory, my poor nieces might be in a position to have a really bright future. It's not going to be the case though, I'm afraid.

I fully support a parent's right to choose the best method of schooling for their family, but some families should lose that right when it's obvious they're not qualified to handle the job.

Again, kudos to all your remarkable parents that have done and continue to do an excellent job. I wish all home schooled kids had the luxury your children have.

 

[N.Bailey]

Wow, it's really getting late here and I got so caught up in this thread. I'm amazed that for the most part after all the replies, everyone managed to stay pretty civil.

Anyway, I had to post one more time in defense of the public schools. Keep in mind, I fully support your right to home school if you choose that route. My response here has NOTHING to do with my position on that at all.

My son is learning disabled. He was held back his 1st year of kindergarten, and was diagnosed in 1st grade. So basically in his 3rd year of school. It upsets me to no end that I can't get a better diagnosis than simply learning disabled, but that's the best I get. For a time (and I guess I'm still not 100% convinced) I thought my son was dyslexic. I'd sat through meeting after meeting of school psychologists, teachers, and others who say otherwise however. I've had a few teachers think he was though. I even had one teacher (she was in her 2nd year of teaching) tell me that my son had the worst learning disability she'd ever seen. I'm not sure how much she'd seen to that point though. For the record, every teacher my son has had absolutely loves him. He's a great kid (I know I'm a little bias) and they all agree on that. This past year on the last day of school the teachers made him a certificate (handed out in front of the entire school) for having such a great attitude (They give 4 out each year I guess to 4 students they feel are exceptional in some way). He is in most classes with the regular students, but he's part of the IEP program and is in a special reading class. He's probably 3 years behind level in reading and writing (he's going into 8th grade this year). His main strength is math. In 7th grade, I had to decide if I wanted my kids in transition math for 1 year or 2 years. Because my son was held back in kindergarten, both of my children are in the same grade too. So, I choose transition math for 1 year for both of them. With my son's disability, they refused to allow him to take transition for 1 year (I was MAD as mad could be). I did not help my son one time the entire year in math. The last day of school they handed out awards to the top 4 students (must be a theme with them? LOL) in 7th grade that had the highest math %. My son was one of the four that received an award (I think he had a 99% which includes all 4 marking periods, finals and mid terms). Maybe the others were in the higher math class that covered more of the book for the year (I'm not sure where they were though), but it really burns me to no end that my son was not given that opportunity!!!!!

When my son was younger, we worked on the letter L for about 45 minutes. I'd draw a large L, then a small l. I'd say lollipop, licorice, lime, lemon etc.... We had fun learning about the letter L. Anyway, when we were all finished and I had everything cleaned up, I looked at my son and asked, ok buddy, one more time and we're all done (I drew and L on a piece of paper), tell me one last time, what letter is this?????? He said and I quote, "K for Katie". Let me tell you, you can't begin to know the frustration I felt. It's been a REALLY long journey since those early days. The good news is; and the school psychologist pointed this out to me, is that he does make progress every year (we've come a long way since that K for Katie) and he's got a fantastic attitude. Everyone agrees that he'll eventually catch up and overcome his disability. I just try to tell him we're all disabled in certain areas. Personally, I couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag. I have absolutely NO sense of direction at all. He does enjoy watching me get lost because to date, he's always been the one to help me figure out where the heck I am. I NEVER drive if hubby is along.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on, but without knowing the background a bit, I couldn't really make my point.

Since my son started middle school (6th grade in our district) this is when you start having "Honor Roll", my son has been an honor student every marking period. He's certainly not high honors and all his reading is adapted and specialized. ALL other classes are regular classes though and have been since starting at the middle school.

I give his teachers a heck of a lot of credit. We've been so fortunate to have teachers that really care. I think when they can see what a significant difference they make (it's obvious where my son is concerned) it really makes them want to do more. I really believe that. This is where I add though and have to back golfgal's responses up, without us working so closely with the teachers, none of this would have been possible. Parents are VITAL to a child's success. It's so sad that many always hold the teachers or the district accountable. Parent's have to share in that responsibility and if they fail to do so, they fail their child. After witnessing how far my son has come, I can only imagine the results this country would see if every parent did all they could to help their children succeed.

Personally, I could have never home schooled my son. I am certainly not qualified to deal with his situation on my own. I have been here every night for homework though. At times it might take hours for him to get it, but he does get it and we don't stop till he does.

IMO, both home schooling and public schooling can produce great results, but without parental involvement, neither with succeed. Read above post for my example of parent's who don't get involved.

 

[golfgal]

Let's just say you have a homeschool group of 50-75 kids..a pretty average size group. Do you think that a homeschooling mom would go around and say, "Sally, this is Sarah, you may play with her." ??? It is not like that AT ALL! I am not wanting to argue with you, but it just really seems you don't have an accurate idea of the dynamics involved in homeschooling, not that you claimed you did.

All you have to counter what you know is a few names on a computer screen, so I understand you have NO reason to believe otherwise, but this is NOT the way it works!

Yes we put the kids in certain groups, but they are free to talk to, or not talk to any child of THEIR choosing. NOT MINE!
Other than that the only time I would have a say in any of it, is if I thought there was a good reason for them not to be friends with a certain child. And I'm not talking about just personal preference here, I mean a real problem.

And BTW, what strangers are you talking about that they would be meeting while they're at school?



Again, no reason for you to believe this, but I don't know any kids like this.
I myself was like this when I was little, and like to have driven my parents insane! I was soooo shy. I wasn't homeschooled BTW.

I am so proud of both my kids and say constantly they must get their outgoing nature from their father.

When my DD first started riding lessons, she just went up to a group of girls and said, "Hi, my name's Heather, what's yours?" I was floored to say the least, and so impressed.

She and my son both are very independent and confident when dealing with strangers.(like say, ordering their own food in a restaurant)

I wish I could take credit for it, but honestly I can't say right off hand how they got that way!LOL

Of course you can only base your opinion on the homeschoolers you have come in contact with in the past. It's too bad it seems to have been only negative.

You may not be like this, but it has been my experience. Take the twins soccer team. Our first game was in miserable conditions. The parents were all huddeling under a park shelter talking. DH and I were talking to one set of parents about the basic get to know you questions, where do you work, where do you live, where do the kids go to school. When they found out we didn't homeschool like they did, they actually walked away from us and didn't talk to us for the rest of the season. Infact, for the rest of the season, the only other family that said anything to us was the one other non-homeschooled family on the team. THAT has been my experience with the parents of homeschoolers in our area.

The rest of my post was in direct response answering and asking questions of another poster. The strangers in reference was something she brought up. She didn't want her kids being around a bunch of strangers at a school.

I have had a lot of experience in real life with homeschooled kids, mainly from teaching high school and having kids in my classes that were homeschooled. I can honestly say that my experience with these kids does not match the assessment of any homeschooling parent to post on this thread. They are not as social and outgoing in high school as the other kids, they are not as independent as the other kids, they are not even close to being as well rounded as the other kids. Sorry, but that is MY personal experience as a high school teacher with homeschooled kids. While homeschooled kids may be more outgoing around their parents, they usually are not in a school setting. You don't see that side of them because you aren't there.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Here's the rub for me though. My brother in law (hubby's brother) demands that his wife home school their children.

*snip*

OH and another thing. My 16 year old niece, she sits at home (mostly by herself) playing video games all day. She has NO friends at all (expect her cousins) because there are NO kids that live near her.

This is an extreme example----the only thing you could do is report them--but if they are meeting the minimum state requirements, nothing can be done.

Each state is different.

The rest of my post was in direct response answering and asking questions of another poster. The strangers in reference was something she brought up. She didn't want her kids being around a bunch of strangers at a school.

If you are referring to me--an article was posted and I responded and defended that statement.

I never said I didn't want my kids around strangers. That would make it really hard to pursue any activity and we'd have to just sit at home all day to prevent any contact with strangers at all.

The point is---you are raising your children and NOT a 6yo. That was the point of it. You teach values to your child--that is HOW they learn how to make choices. You think they learned b/c of the kids they are exposed to. That your son made his choices for simple exposure to school--no. You raised him with values...and he is using those values to make his decisions.

My favorite "duh" quote of all time--"your kid needs to be offered drugs so that they can say no". Um---no they don't. Your kids do not need to be a school setting all day for 180 days of the year to learn their social skills.

I believe in the right to homeschool.

I think those who use it as a way to "isolate" their children from everything should rethink why they do it. I do agree--can't protect them from everything...and the whole living in a bubble--well it will just one day pop.

And those who "homeschool" by the mere omission of sending their kid to school and not really teaching their kids should be ashamed of themselves--b/c they give it a bad name for all of us.

Anybody can be a parent and anybody can homeschool--but don't strip my rights or tell me I shouldn't b/c you know someone who does it poorly.

My choice to homeschool has no affect on your or anybody else. My children will be prepared for the real world...and just might be all the better for it.

As far as the soccer game--sad that you got "blacklisted"--but you can now see how homeschoolers often feel when they get told constantly by naysayers who really don't have a clue--how awful a choice they are making for their kids.

I have friends who know I homeschool, but we don't talk about it...for very good reason.

 

[Brier Rose]

You may not be like this, but it has been my experience. Take the twins soccer team. Our first game was in miserable conditions. The parents were all huddeling under a park shelter talking. DH and I were talking to one set of parents about the basic get to know you questions, where do you work, where do you live, where do the kids go to school. When they found out we didn't homeschool like they did, they actually walked away from us and didn't talk to us for the rest of the season. Infact, for the rest of the season, the only other family that said anything to us was the one other non-homeschooled family on the team. THAT has been my experience with the parents of homeschoolers in our area..

That truly just makes my stomach turn. To be so blatantly rude and inconsiderate to someone for such a petty reason is just unforgivable.
And WHY!! I just makes NO sense to me!?!

I have had a lot of experience in real life with homeschooled kids, mainly from teaching high school and having kids in my classes that were homeschooled. I can honestly say that my experience with these kids does not match the assessment of any homeschooling parent to post on this thread. They are not as social and outgoing in high school as the other kids, they are not as independent as the other kids, they are not even close to being as well rounded as the other kids. Sorry, but that is MY personal experience as a high school teacher with homeschooled kids. While homeschooled kids may be more outgoing around their parents, they usually are not in a school setting. You don't see that side of them because you aren't there.

I don't expect you to base your opinion on anything besides what you have experienced to be true. I fully understand that, I mean that's true of us all right?

I'm not even trying to change your opinion.(OK, maybe just a little)

No really, if anything I was just trying to let you or anyone else here know what it's like for us and the other homeschoolers that WE know.

I guess I should count myself lucky. While we HAVE been around some homeschooled kids like you have described, it just is not the norm here. Thank God!

Who knows, maybe as homeschooling continues to grow you'll come across some that are more like us here. I sure hope so.

Oh, and BTW, just a little shameless brag here so forgive me.

I know both my kids will always act different when they are not around me. Heck, I expect that..it's normal. I can honestly tell you though, that I have had several adults, not homeschoolers, just adults involved with whatever DD was doing, actually take the time to come up to me and tell me what a good child they thought she was. That she was helpful, considerate, smart, etc..

That meant so much to me as a mother! Kind of like a confirmation that I was doing a good job, you know.

Anyway, guess what I was trying to say is that in the end I still really believe that it all comes down to how a child is raised by their parents, rather than how they a schooled.

 

[nuzmom]

N.Bailey: In what state does your brother-in-law live? It sounds like a bad situation, but I would like to comment on some of the things you said. I'm not saying that this is or is not the case with your BIL's family, but just comments in general.

The child didn't know what grade she's in. Well, this has been an issue with our family and some others I know. There is a lot of HS curriculum that doesn't follow "grade levels". It's based purely on ability. A child may be ahead of his "grade" in some areas and behind in others. My kids will have some other answer for the question "what grade are you in?" by the time they're 16 years old, but right now they would give you an "ask my mom" response.

The oldest daughter doesn't have a diploma? Well, that's a shame, but in PA it isn't that clear cut to get a diploma. There are many HS families in PA that just go the GED route because of that (I hope she ends up doing at least that sometime in her future). For instance, to get a diploma in PA you need to go through a group (like PA homeschoolers association). The biggest issue with this is if your child completes courses ahead of schedule, they have to retake them. For instance, our homeschooling group completed a course in World Geography last year. The kids who were in 6th grade will have to take it again (or something similiar) to get credit towards their diploma because 6th grade classes don't count.

Are you sure the girl couldn't spell "silk" or was she just embarassed at the "whole" family knowing the jokes and she didn't. Or, worse yet, what if she's a bright girl, but has dyslexia or another disorder that she is embarassed about? I know of a boy that is a terrible speller because his brain doesn't process phonetically - he learns all words by site words. He reads great, but can't spell and it was actually diagnosed in public school.

Finally, if this family lives in PA, they MUST have standardized testing. It's not required every year, but it is required. Also, they must submit a portfolio of each childs work to the school EVERY YEAR. The portfolio MUST include an evaluation by a certified teacher.

It's terrible that you BIL makes you sister "homeschool" their kids. Does she work during the day while the daughter plays video games? Who looks over the daughters work? I hate to say it, but if the BIL won't budge, then your sister will have to step up and at least see that her children are educated. Where does she stand on all of this? Does she agree that her daughters are not getting an education?

A final suggestion. If you can talk to your sister and she just can't do the homeschooling and the BIL won't allow public school, then suggest that she check into "cyberschool". I can't personally recommend any because we haven't gone that route, but there are people that can. In most cases, she would be provided with a computer, printer, all textbooks and materials, and a DSL connection. She would still be "isolated", but a lot of the classes can be in a "group" setting (via the internet) and the education does get done. It sounds like that would be better than what she's getting right now.

One last thing, NBailey, I hope nothing I said sounds like I'm attacking you personally, that definitely wasn't what I was trying to do. It's just that I feel like my DS is judged the same way at times (like "what grade are you in?"), but he is NOT 16 either, and I wanted to explain that SOMETIMES there is another side to the story.

btw - It's wonderful the way public schools have helped your son. It sounds like it's also do to having a very caring and involved parent. Way to go.

 

[disneymom3]

As we sat eating dinner, we started telling silly little jokes. My husband broke in with a really old one (we all knew the joke) so he asked my niece to spell top? She said she didn't want to, but finally said t o p. then he said hop and she had to think and said h o p ...then mop, etc... then he said, what do you do at a green light, to which she said stop and we all had our little laugh. Remember, she's 16 years old. He then says, spell silk (he was continuing the joke) and she just clammed up and started sweating, then got really upset and said she didn't want to hear anymore jokes. The truth of the matter is, she simply couldn't spell silk and she was embarrassed. Especially when my 13 year old jumped in with s i l k. In defense of my daughter, she didn't pick up the fact that her cousin couldn't spell the word or she would have never spelled it..

I just have to say that this sounds like exactly, and I mean exactly what my nephew would do in this situation and it just about makes me cry. He is severely dyslexic and has some kind of tracking aphasia or something along those lines. Maybe your niece really doesn't know how to spell because of a terrible education and I am not attacking your post, but it totally makes me think of DN. One of my sisters had arranged this family game thing that involved reading words in a certain order in kind of a round robin thing and DN said it was stupid and walked out of the room. At that point Sis realized what she had done and felt awful. (Not his mom, another sis.) Anyway, he was like 19 at the time and is now about 22 and is a very successful well liked construction worker where his struggles with reading and spelling do not affect him. (Actually, he can read now, but if something is read aloud to him or he has to try to picture a word in his mind--like this joke required, there is no way he could do it.)

Just a different perspective to think about.

 

[sk!mom]

After posting, I'm going back to read some of the responses and I agree with you 100%. If you've not read my prior post, please do so. Had testing been mandatory, my poor nieces might be in a position to have a really bright future. It's not going to be the case though, I'm afraid.

I fully support a parent's right to choose the best method of schooling for their family, but some families should lose that right when it's obvious they're not qualified to handle the job.

Again, kudos to all your remarkable parents that have done and continue to do an excellent job. I wish all home schooled kids had the luxury your children have.

Well said, I couldn't agree more! If you are doing a good job schooling your children then you should have no problem with them being tested to prove it.

 

[Hsminnie]

Continuing in the spirit of sensible, concilliatory debate, I would like to point out that my children (who will begin attending public school in the fall) have a much easier time relating to people of all ages than most of their peers. They have been home since birth (ages 13 and 10 now) and learned to interact with children and adults on a daily basis. Spending 6-8 hours a day with 20-30 children the same age, ethinicity and socio-economic background is not true socialization, IMHO. My kids have a much more diverse preparation than their 'school' friends.

That said, I am glad that the 10yo will have her need for many friends fulfilled and that the 13yo will be challenged to deal with her tendency to be shy.

BTW, as a homeschooler I want to thanks everyone for NOT being obnoxious. It is tedious to be stereotyped by folks who generally have no true knowledge of a subject. "Walk a mile in my shoes...." and all that!

 

[sha_lyn]

Sure, a lot of them are smart, but most of them can't answer a question without looking at mom first. THAT is really sad. I am sure you think you are doing the best thing for your child and that is your right, but that is not how I see it and no matter what you say, MY experience with homeschooled children is completly different then what all the homeschooled parents say.

How do you "know" that these same kids wouldn't look at their parent before answering if they were in PS

I don't think PS/HS really affects childs true personality that much. Both of my children are extremely outgoing and "social". DS was in PS K-6. DD was in a private preK and has been HS'ed ever since. Which was at the recomendation of her PK teacher BTW. DD's Bday is right at the cut off. She would have been the youngest and smallest in her K class. The teacher felt she was not mature enough for K, but knew all the PK material. DD had a hard time physically fitting in with her classmates. She just had not reached the milestones that they had. In fact DD was so small that she needed a step stool to reach many of the things in the classroom.

As for the "looking at the parents" comment.

about 11 yrs ago a friend went to enroll her 4DS in PK. He hid behind mom. Wouldn't make eye contact with the teacher etc. The teacher commented "good thing you are putting him in PK, it is apparent he's never been around others." Well this child had been in daycare since he was 6 weeks old and was in 3yr PK the previous yr.

So what is your "argument" about this. Being around other kids that mom didn't "hand pick" without mom for 50-60 hrs a week wasn't enough time away from mom?

In my experience a child is "born" out going or introverted.

Another example from just yesterday at DD's Bday party

One guest who is now HS'ed was in PS PK-2. He has only been HS'ed for a yr. His mother pulled him out because the school refused the Dr's diasnosis of Aspenger's symdrome. He does not do well in new situations, around new kids etc. It took weeks of bringing him around DD and a couple of other kids before he would interact with them at all. Now after 9 months he waits on his doorstep waiting for his friends to come over.
Anyway... at DD's party I could easily see someone labeling him as one of those poor unsocialized HS'ers. His mother had to remove hm from the group at one point because it was too much for him. He didn't understand that he couldn't have cake when he was ready for it. We had to keep him away from it etc.

I actually know sevreral that HS because of similar problems such as Aspengers, mild autism etc. These are very bright children that can not learn in a traditional school setting.
The fact is that unless you have all the facts about someone, it is hard to know just what is going on.

 

[N.Bailey]

N.Bailey: In what state does your brother-in-law live? It sounds like a bad situation, but I would like to comment on some of the things you said. I'm not saying that this is or is not the case with your BIL's family, but just comments in general.

The child didn't know what grade she's in. Well, this has been an issue with our family and some others I know. There is a lot of HS curriculum that doesn't follow "grade levels". It's based purely on ability. A child may be ahead of his "grade" in some areas and behind in others. My kids will have some other answer for the question "what grade are you in?" by the time they're 16 years old, but right now they would give you an "ask my mom" response.

The oldest daughter doesn't have a diploma? Well, that's a shame, but in PA it isn't that clear cut to get a diploma. There are many HS families in PA that just go the GED route because of that (I hope she ends up doing at least that sometime in her future). For instance, to get a diploma in PA you need to go through a group (like PA homeschoolers association). The biggest issue with this is if your child completes courses ahead of schedule, they have to retake them. For instance, our homeschooling group completed a course in World Geography last year. The kids who were in 6th grade will have to take it again (or something similiar) to get credit towards their diploma because 6th grade classes don't count.

Are you sure the girl couldn't spell "silk" or was she just embarassed at the "whole" family knowing the jokes and she didn't. Or, worse yet, what if she's a bright girl, but has dyslexia or another disorder that she is embarassed about? I know of a boy that is a terrible speller because his brain doesn't process phonetically - he learns all words by site words. He reads great, but can't spell and it was actually diagnosed in public school.

Finally, if this family lives in PA, they MUST have standardized testing. It's not required every year, but it is required. Also, they must submit a portfolio of each childs work to the school EVERY YEAR. The portfolio MUST include an evaluation by a certified teacher.

It's terrible that you BIL makes you sister "homeschool" their kids. Does she work during the day while the daughter plays video games? Who looks over the daughters work? I hate to say it, but if the BIL won't budge, then your sister will have to step up and at least see that her children are educated. Where does she stand on all of this? Does she agree that her daughters are not getting an education?

A final suggestion. If you can talk to your sister and she just can't do the homeschooling and the BIL won't allow public school, then suggest that she check into "cyberschool". I can't personally recommend any because we haven't gone that route, but there are people that can. In most cases, she would be provided with a computer, printer, all textbooks and materials, and a DSL connection. She would still be "isolated", but a lot of the classes can be in a "group" setting (via the internet) and the education does get done. It sounds like that would be better than what she's getting right now.

One last thing, NBailey, I hope nothing I said sounds like I'm attacking you personally, that definitely wasn't what I was trying to do. It's just that I feel like my DS is judged the same way at times (like "what grade are you in?"), but he is NOT 16 either, and I wanted to explain that SOMETIMES there is another side to the story.

btw - It's wonderful the way public schools have helped your son. It sounds like it's also do to having a very caring and involved parent. Way to go.

As I was reading through the thread last night, I did notice that you were from PA too. I just didn't comment because I didn't want to start hogging the thread.

I don't begin to understand the laws of the state where home schooling is concerned. So, many questions I can't answer.

As for my niece however, I'm 100% certain she could not spell silk. She wasn't embarrassed because she was the only one who didn't know the joke. I believe she does have a learning disability and I have MUCH 1st hand knowledge of how it can effect a person's life. IMO, this is another HUGE reason I believe this child (more so than her sister) needs to be in the public schooling system. I do realize that some parents pull their children out of the public schools for this very reason, and I say that's wonderful if that parent has the capability to do more for the child than the school. It's just not the case here however, nor would it be for me. I worked with my son as much as I could, but the frustration when what you're doing isn't working was really too much for me to handle on my own. The teachers did give me lots of ideas of things we could do at home though.

A little background on my sister in law. She is one of the nicest people anyone could ever meet, but she has some mental problems that most people would never understand. I guess as long as she's on her meds, she's fine, but when she's short on $$ she either stops taking them entirely, or she tries to break them in 1/2 or 1/4 to stretch them out. At that point, she's usually admitted to the hospital for a week or even longer. At one point (she confided in me) when this 16 year old was a baby she heard voices in her head telling her to toss the baby down the stairs. She got scared and ran to her husband to get her some help and she was admitted to the hospital. She told me that was the one and only time she'd ever heard any voices, but she is admitted to the hospital at least once a year, sometimes more often.

Her husband also expects her to work full time to support the family. She also carries the insurance. She manages a local store, so she puts in LOTS of hours. Luckily for her, she's not lost her job due to her hospitalizations. Keep in mind, after she is released from the hospital, at times it can be weeks till she's able to return to her job. Financially, they're not in the best shape, so any programs running in the $$$ wouldn't be a possibility.

He works when he chooses, but runs a lot and is rarely home during the day. He also breeds dogs (should be arrested for neglect of them too) and makes this 16 year take care of them. He won't even feed them and he gets mad if she's gone (spending the night at a cousins house) and he has to feed them. I know she resents him for all this too. He breeds labs and pugs and we got our lab from him (rescued her really because we hated the way she was treated). We took her to the vet and she had to be treated for mange (hope I spelled that right) and the vet asked what she'd been eating? We didn't know, but he said her teeth were like broken and grinded down like she'd been eating rocks. She also had worms (big surprise).

A little more background on my niece. Her social skills (and I know this isn't most home schooled kids, please keep that in mind) are so bad that she's not even able to communicate effectively on the phone. I know I call down there at times and if her parents aren't home, she just doesn't really know what to say after getting the "they're not here right now" out. She simply cannot speak beyond that point. So then I try to jump in with, okay sweety, do you know when I could call back? Is your mom at work, etc..... she answers those specific questions and is silent till I say anything more. I've talked to others in my family as well as some of my husband's family and she acts like this with all of us. When she's here, she just wants to play video games and lacks any desire to do anything else. She doesn't talk much either. She'll answer specific questions, then she clams up. She really fell in love with a game we have Animal Crossing, but my daughter read everything that came on the screen to her. I have another sister in law (hubby's sister) who believes that this 16 is too much of an introvert to send her to school now. She told me she doesn't believe it's possible now (actually she said this 2 years ago) for her to ever fit in with the other kids.

When my 1st niece started school, she was sent to a Christian school and on an academic level, that school is much more advanced than the public schools in our area. It was VERY expensive though. So, when my bro in law quit his job, there was no way they could afford to send the girls there and that's when the "my kids won't go to a public school" started. The 16 year old hadn't started school yet, so she's only known home schooling, but her sister had a few years of it.

I just feel that somewhere along the line they should be held accountable. I fully support a parent's right to choose, but somewhere, lines need to be drawn. Sure, he has the right to home school, but...... I don't know what they do as far as testing is concerned and I do appreciate you taking the time to state what some of the laws are here.

Another aside. The older daughter moved out of the house right after turning 18. She got a job at a nursing home and moved in with her boyfriend. The 16 year old is saying she's planning on doing the exact same thing.