Homeschooling Debate

[sha_lyn]

I just don't get the "hand picked" arguement. I don't hand pick the kids in scouts, Martial arts, home school groups, home school classes, gymnastics, our religous comunity, the neighborhood etc.

Lisa has pretty much answered the socialization question as I would have.

 

[Puffy2]

Ditto on the "hand picked" thing.

And, just how much is "public high school" (which throws in all walks of society - whether they want to be there or not - ) like any real world situation?

As adults :
we choose what neighborhood to live in.
we choose where we work.
we choose the college we want to attend.
we choose our church.
we choose our social clubs.
we choose our friends.

Even in the army - you would be with a group of people who chose to join (unless the draft in reinstated).

In public high school you will get a lot of good teachers, smart kids, students working hard towards goals but you'll also get some poor teachers, a pediphile or two, a bunch of kids who don't want to be there, some kids who are destructive and one or two who might actually even be dangerous.

Last year during the first week of school at our local high school one boy stabbed another in the hallway. At another nearby middle school , a boy raped a girl in the bathroom.

I know things like this happen in the "world" from time to time, but thankfully I don't have to put my child where it is more likely to happen.

 

[auntpolly]

Lisa has pretty much answered the socialization question as I would have.

Nobody really answered my question. And you don't have to. I understand perfectly what you mean by socialization but I still don't think a homeschooled child gets to do this in the way that other kids do.

Understand that I can see where this is a sacrifice that sometimes needs to be made. I would homeschool in a heartbeat if my child were in danger or had learning disabilities that my school district wasn't ready to handle. But all things being equal, the socialization question is still an issue, even with your definition.

 

[Brier Rose]

I hesitate to say this. It's just my experience,but most of the homeschoolers that I knew,who tried very hard to shelter their kids,were Born Again Christians.

Just curious, but do you also think the same of people who choose to send their children to Private Christian schools?

When you say that the BAC homeschoolers that you've known tried to shelter their children, do you mean by only joining a Christian homeschool group, or did they just not participate in any outside activities at all?

 

[Brier Rose]

Ditto on the "hand picked" thing.

And, just how much is "public high school" (which throws in all walks of society - whether they want to be there or not - ) like any real world situation?

As adults :
we choose what neighborhood to live in.
we choose where we work.
we choose the college we want to attend.
we choose our church.
we choose our social clubs.
we choose our friends.

Good point!

 

[JennyMominRI]

Just curious, but do you also think the same of people who choose to send their children to Private Christian schools?

When you say that the BAC homeschoolers that you've known tried to shelter their children, do you mean by only joining a Christian homeschool group, or did they just not participate in any outside activities at all?

To clarify once more..I'm not saying all BAC homeschoolers do this or even that most do..Just some.
The ones I knew that did this only participated in activities directly sponsored by their church..I don't have anything against joining a Christian Homeschoolers group..That's not the issue.. These would be the same people who flat out say they don't want their kids exposed to anything that doesn't directly involve their religious beliefs

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Nobody really answered my question. And you don't have to. I understand perfectly what you mean by socialization but I still don't think a homeschooled child gets to do this in the way that other kids do.

I think we've answered to the best of our abilities. You just aren't satisfied with the answer and that is fine.

the answer is--there is no issue.

 

[Puffy2]

When you say that the BAC homeschoolers that you've known tried to shelter their children, do you mean by only joining a Christian homeschool group, or did they just not participate in any outside activities at all?

I can't speak for Jenny, but in my personal experience SOME of the BAC homeschoolers in our area (that particpate in a local homeschool group and extra classes composed of homeschoolers) have refused to allow their children to associate with mine (outside of the group) because we do not go to the church that they do (we are Catholic).

I have to admit, I'm not thrilled with the parent's religious beliefs or attitudes BUT my kid liked their kid and I was willing to set aside my own feelings in order to encourage some social encounters (lunch out, a movie, visit to the park) but no, it was all rejected. One did offer for my kid to attend their church with them. No thanks.

Again, this is SOME. Not all.

We have met others that are more hospitable.

And I don't think that those attitudes are any different than the attitudes of SOME at private Christian schools.

 

[golfgal]

True--my kids hang out with kids whose parents I know.

Do I want to be my kids number one peer influence---heck yes I do!!!

My kid meets "strangers" all the time---but since I am there...if the kid has behaviors I don't approve of....it can be taken care of. I cannot have any control over who she is exposed to at school--be it the sweetest angel on earth...or the worst little hellion to roam the planet.

It doesn't block anything in the real world. My child will see more of the real world than she will be in a classroom. She will be learning about life just fine!

This is EXACTLY what I DON'T like about homeschooling. Your children play with the friends YOU pick for them, they are only influenced by what YOU say is right or wrong. If they meet strangers, you are there telling them if they are ok people or not. That is NOT the real world. You can not CONTROL them when they go to school and that there is the real crux of the motivation behind 99% of the homeschooling parents I know. When do your children start to think for themsleves and start making decisions for themselves?

Kids start in early childhood learning about people, learning what they like and don't like about people. If children are free to learn that, they can make GOOD decisions about what kind of people they want to be around. With you making those decisions for them ALL THE TIME, they never learn to do that on their own. Then all of the sudden, one day, mom isn't there anymore and HOW IN THE HECK do they cope. You never see your child when s/he isn't with you. You have NO idea what they are like when you are not around and even though I don't know you or know your child, I can bet they are no where near what you think they are. My kids don't act the same around me as they do around their friends or teachers, no kids do. From all the homeschooled kids I had when I was teaching and all the ones I see today, a very small percentage of them really know how to function well in society, plain and simple. Sure, a lot of them are smart, but most of them can't answer a question without looking at mom first. THAT is really sad. I am sure you think you are doing the best thing for your child and that is your right, but that is not how I see it and no matter what you say, MY experience with homeschooled children is completly different then what all the homeschooled parents say.

I can say that none of my children have friends that I don't like. They are all friends they met at school and they have made great decisions about which kids are nice kids and which kids are not. DS13 is a great example. One boy on his track team kept asking for rides home after practice. After the first time I met him, I didn't care for him, but said nothing to DS. Well, after about a week, DS tells me that he told this boy we couldn't give him a ride home anymore. I asked DS why and he basically said that there was something about this boy that he didn't like, but he didn't know what it was. I am GLAD he has those instincts about people at such a young age.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

This is EXACTLY what I DON'T like about homeschooling. Your children play with the friends YOU pick for them, they are only influenced by what YOU say is right or wrong. If they meet strangers, you are there telling them if they are ok people or not. That is NOT the real world.

Actually I have not hand picked one single solitary friend of my daughters.

Additionally--this is how it is in the real world with parenting. Unless that you can attest that you will let your child be friends with ANYbody--and I do mean ANYbody. You cannot prove that once you send your child to school that you throw your hands up in the air and say "well it's out of my control now".

I'm sure you plan on having all the druggie kids over for slumber parties, right?

It isn't realistic to say that you will surrendor all influence--b/c no parent in their right mind would.

 

[golfgal]

Actually I have not hand picked one single solitary friend of my daughters.

Additionally--this is how it is in the real world with parenting. Unless that you can attest that you will let your child be friends with ANYbody--and I do mean ANYbody. You cannot prove that once you send your child to school that you throw your hands up in the air and say "well it's out of my control now".

I'm sure you plan on having all the druggie kids over for slumber parties, right?

It isn't realistic to say that you will surrendor all influence--b/c no parent in their right mind would.

I never said I would surrender influence, but by allowing my CHILD to make choices they have learned how to pick good friends. None of my kids hang out with the druggies, so that isn't an issue. I am still an influence in my children's lives, but I certainly don't control every thing they do. They do have some freedom to go places without me and make decisions about how they will act and who they hang out with. They have mad some not so good decisions, but nothing life threatening yet , and I trust them. It is really all or nothing with you isn't it. Your kids can't go to school because they will hang out with druggies. There are plenty of nice kids in school buildings too.

You have hand picked your children's friends by only allowing them to play with the children of your friends. Have your children ever played at someone's house that you have not been friends with. I know the parents of my kids' friends, mainly because I make a point of meeting them, but I am not friends with all of them. It gets to the point with children that you don't let or not let them do things. You teach the well when they are young and trust them to make good decisions as they get older. Like my example showed, my children can make that decision for themselves and they DO make good choices. THat is the point in this whole discussion you are missing. You need to teach your children to make those decisions, you can't keep making them for them or they will NEVER learn to do it on their own and you won't always be around to make those choices for them.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Actually--I never said my kids won't go to school b/c of druggies.

You assume in your area---where "99%" of those you know keep them out to control who their kids hang out with....to be true for all and that simply is not the case.

My DD plays with more than just my friends kids. I haven't hand picked anybody. You don't know what we do or whom we do it with. My child's best friend---I had no hand in it whatsoever. No more than how your kids meet their best friends.

You are just making the biggest assumption. And it really isn't based on anything from what I can tell.

I know a number of teenage homeschoolers--excellent friends with one another--who have traveled with one another--who have gone on mission trips around the world. How they turn out when they "fly the coup"--I think their odds are just as excellent as those kids who spent 13 years in regular school.

ETA: My daughter hasn't yet played at anybody whom I wasn't already friends with as she is only 5 and just beginning Kindergarten. I do not have to be friends with her kids parents--but I would have to know them first. In this day and age---regular school or not...it is my responsibility to keep her safe and 5yo is a far cry from 13yo.

ETAA: I did say we wanted to be her #1 influence. Never did I say her "only" influence.

 

[Brier Rose]

To clarify once more..I'm not saying all BAC homeschoolers do this or even that most do..Just some.
The ones I knew that did this only participated in activities directly sponsored by their church..I don't have anything against joining a Christian Homeschoolers group..That's not the issue.. These would be the same people who flat out say they don't want their kids exposed to anything that doesn't directly involve their religious beliefs

I didn't mean to imply that you were saying all BAC homeschoolers. I was just wondering about the ones you were referring to. Sorry, guess I could've made that more clear.
I wasn't sure if you were talking about Christian homeschool groups in general, or about some people being even more selective than that.

We are members of a Christian homeschool group, but ours doesn't discriminate against anybody who wants to join. You do however have to sign a statement saying that you have no problem with the fact that it is a Christian based homeschool group.

They didn't used to do this, but had to start after some members of the group got very angry and made a big stink about saying the blessing before meals, and prayer before sports activities, etc..

While I do welcome Christian fellowship in any form, be it homeschool group or otherwise, I would'nt want to limit all human contact to anything but that!
That's pretty narrowminded IMO.

 

[Brier Rose]

I can't speak for Jenny, but in my personal experience SOME of the BAC homeschoolers in our area (that particpate in a local homeschool group and extra classes composed of homeschoolers) have refused to allow their children to associate with mine (outside of the group) because we do not go to the church that they do (we are Catholic).

I have to admit, I'm not thrilled with the parent's religious beliefs or attitudes BUT my kid liked their kid and I was willing to set aside my own feelings in order to encourage some social encounters (lunch out, a movie, visit to the park) but no, it was all rejected. One did offer for my kid to attend their church with them. No thanks.

Again, this is SOME. Not all.

We have met others that are more hospitable.

And I don't think that those attitudes are any different than the attitudes of SOME at private Christian schools.

Wow, that's terrible!
I really hate when some Christians feel the need to act like that. I can understand not wanting your children to participate in something you believe would be compromising there values in some way,(can't think of what that would be?), but to discount any kind of a relationship between children just because they have different beliefs is pretty crappy!(for lack of a better word!)

 

[Brier Rose]

This is EXACTLY what I DON'T like about homeschooling. Your children play with the friends YOU pick for them, they are only influenced by what YOU say is right or wrong. If they meet strangers, you are there telling them if they are ok people or not. That is NOT the real world. You can not CONTROL them when they go to school and that there is the real crux of the motivation behind 99% of the homeschooling parents I know. When do your children start to think for themsleves and start making decisions for themselves? .

Let's just say you have a homeschool group of 50-75 kids..a pretty average size group. Do you think that a homeschooling mom would go around and say, "Sally, this is Sarah, you may play with her." ??? It is not like that AT ALL! I am not wanting to argue with you, but it just really seems you don't have an accurate idea of the dynamics involved in homeschooling, not that you claimed you did.

All you have to counter what you know is a few names on a computer screen, so I understand you have NO reason to believe otherwise, but this is NOT the way it works!

Yes we put the kids in certain groups, but they are free to talk to, or not talk to any child of THEIR choosing. NOT MINE!
Other than that the only time I would have a say in any of it, is if I thought there was a good reason for them not to be friends with a certain child. And I'm not talking about just personal preference here, I mean a real problem.

And BTW, what strangers are you talking about that they would be meeting while they're at school?

Sure, a lot of them are smart, but most of them can't answer a question without looking at mom first. THAT is really sad. I am sure you think you are doing the best thing for your child and that is your right, but that is not how I see it and no matter what you say, MY experience with homeschooled children is completly different then what all the homeschooled parents say.

Again, no reason for you to believe this, but I don't know any kids like this.
I myself was like this when I was little, and like to have driven my parents insane! I was soooo shy. I wasn't homeschooled BTW.

I am so proud of both my kids and say constantly they must get their outgoing nature from their father.

When my DD first started riding lessons, she just went up to a group of girls and said, "Hi, my name's Heather, what's yours?" I was floored to say the least, and so impressed.

She and my son both are very independent and confident when dealing with strangers.(like say, ordering their own food in a restaurant)

I wish I could take credit for it, but honestly I can't say right off hand how they got that way!LOL

Of course you can only base your opinion on the homeschoolers you have come in contact with in the past. It's too bad it seems to have been only negative.

 

[Puffy2]

Sure, a lot of them are smart, but most of them can't answer a question without looking at mom first. THAT is really sad. I am sure you think you are doing the best thing for your child and that is your right, but that is not how I see it and no matter what you say, MY experience with homeschooled children is completly different then what all the homeschooled parents say.

First of all, that isn't the case with my children, but that aside - when I volunteered at the local elementary school in the library when my children were still in public school I made a point to look each child in the eye when they came up to the desk to check out a book. I would say to them ," Hello, how are you today?" - 9 times out of 10 I'd get stared at! No response at all! That's when I'd coach them - "this is where you tell me 'Im fine, how are you?' " or something similar. Sometimes I'd ask them, "What can I do for you today?" AND ....I'd get stared at. So...I'd say, "This is where YOU say, 'I'd like to check out a book, please.' "

My point is, 90% of these elementary age kids (5 - 11 years old) had the social skills of a potato. I even suggested to administration that perhaps they needed to add a class for the students in public speaking. My homeschool children take just such a class with the girlscouts. They meet twice a month to practice, give speaches and debate.

 

[CharlesTD]

Personally my view is unless you went to school to be a teacher you shouldn't be teaching now that being said there are some teachers that did go to school to become teachers that shouldn't be teaching but that is another topic. I figure if you didn't go through university and get a teaching degree then you have no business teaching school to kids even your own.

 

[Skatermom23]

First of all, that isn't the case with my children, but that aside - when I volunteered at the local elementary school in the library when my children were still in public school I made a point to look each child in the eye when they came up to the desk to check out a book. I would say to them ," Hello, how are you today?" - 9 times out of 10 I'd get stared at! No response at all! That's when I'd coach them - "this is where you tell me 'Im fine, how are you?' " or something similar. Sometimes I'd ask them, "What can I do for you today?" AND ....I'd get stared at. So...I'd say, "This is where YOU say, 'I'd like to check out a book, please.' "

My point is, 90% of these elementary age kids (5 - 11 years old) had the social skills of a potato. I even suggested to administration that perhaps they needed to add a class for the students in public speaking. My homeschool children take just such a class with the girlscouts. They meet twice a month to practice, give speaches and debate.

I had stayed out of this debate for a day or so until this....... and I must say that I completly agree with this. This was also my observation. Most schooled children never look an adult in the eye let alone speak to them when spoken too... One of the things that my kids teachers always, and I mean always, comment on is that my kids look them in the eye when talking!!
BTW, both kiddos were homeschooled for elementary school. My kids know that I "judge" their friends on if they look me in the eye or not...it's kind of a joke in our hourse....

 

[Puffy2]

Personally my view is unless you went to school to be a teacher you shouldn't be teaching now that being said there are some teachers that did go to school to become teachers that shouldn't be teaching but that is another topic. I figure if you didn't go through university and get a teaching degree then you have no business teaching school to kids even your own.

I can see your point, but I do disagree with it. I was certified to teach high school history. I have a degree in history, a minor in education and a second degree in nursing. My husband is a mathematician which helps a lot for us because he's able to teach the things that I am weak in.

However, what REALLY matters is how aggressive parents are in finding resources for their children (not whether or not they have a teaching certificate, which by the way, really wasn't that useful as far as my ablility to "teach") . We have spent a small fortune on Spanish tutoring and writing classes. It seems like I'm constantly in the car taking them to extra classes, groups, tutoring sessions, etc... It's hard work.

But it really boils down to I believe that every parent in this country has the right to educate their child in the matter that they see fit. I can't help it if some homeschool families do a less than desirable job anymore than I can help it if the local public school fails a certain percentage of their students.

It's all about freedom AND having the opportunity to seek out the very best education possible and not being limited to what is offered -or not offered - by the government.

 

[auntpolly]

I've been out on my bike and thinking about this and I really don't want to debate anymore, only to say that I was never debating anything personal about any of you -- just the merits of homeschooling itself.

I don't think it's a good idea, but I don't think alot of thing are a good idea that lots of people do and - hey - none of my business. I think most of us are all doing the best we can for our kids and that's all that counts.

I think if I'm honest I'll say that something like that article you guys posted will get me a little on the defensive. I feel like that saying that "that complete stranger's 6 year old is my 6 year old - and lots of other 6 year olds that are so worth knowing, and that it's hard for us to see the value in what the world has to offer if you don't trust it enough. That's the question I was asking that I you guys never answered. That sentence in particular - do you really agree with that?

Other than that, I have no problems with that any more than I have with any of the other 5000 other ways that I differ with other parents in parenting issues. For me, this was just a discussion -- not an indictment against any of you.