Homeschooling Debate

[golfgal]

And for the record, I know over 50 homeschooling families personally in the state of MN and none of them grade their own kids tests. I know a FEW who administer the CA test (which I don't remember the name of) but the vast majority of them either go to, meet with, or have a certified tester come to them.

Which is fine, but it is NOT required and that is my point. It sounds like you have a good group, but in MY experience, that is not the norm. I know well over 50 families that homeschool and NONE of them use and independent testing source-they don't want to pay for it. I am sure many other do, but the point is it isn't required and there are MANY, MANY unqulaified people out there teaching their children. You know this as well as I do. So what do these kids do when they turn 18 and can't pass the ACT/SAT and get into college, trade school or what ever. It is a little late then.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Suggesting that HSers cheat to get by is no less silly than suggesting that PS teachers cheat for test scores. Esp. now with NCLB. Both happen and both are reprehensible. And many people make it all the way thru the School system unable to read, write, or pass an ACT. The current sad state of the educational system lies entirely on the shoulders of the school system.

 

[nuzmom]

Ok, I have to say that in PA a parent is not allowed to administer the test, however, the test can be taken at home. You can take your kid to testing sites (or even the school), pay someone to proxy it at home, have a grandparent or other relative administer it, or have another parent come over and do it. It just can't be the parent. (The parent can stay at home during test time, though). The person administering the test "signs off" on it.

Think about that, in PS the kids are allowed to take the tests in the environment that they see day in and day out. HSers are also allowed to take the test in the environment that they are familiar with. There's nothing wrong with that.

I do have to say what is wrong. Our PS had received very poor scores on the standardized testing 3 years ago. The last two years, some elementary level classes (that I know of) spent weeks SPECIFICALLY studying for the test. They worked problem after problem that were VERY similiar to what would appear on the test. The teachers would even say "well, the last few weeks we've been preparing for the upcoming tests." I got more information by asking "How do you do that?" (Because you sometimes have to explain to young children how to fill out a "bubble" type test and I understand that.)

In my opinion, this is wrong no matter who does it. Yes, there may be some HSers that do that, but I don't know of any. I can tell you that we did the test at home this last year and it was opened the day of the test. I think the standardized testing should be a true reflection of what the kids have learned, not what they have "crammed" for. Going the long way to get here, but my point is, before you start questioning how HSers take their standardized tests or administer them, you may need to also question how PSs take them.

I know there will be replies that your PS doesn't do that - great, it sounds like you have a honest school, but there are others out there.

 

[golfgal]

Suggesting that HSers cheat to get by is no less silly than suggesting that PS teachers cheat for test scores. Esp. now with NCLB. Both happen and both are reprehensible. And many people make it all the way thru the School system unable to read, write, or pass an ACT. The current sad state of the educational system lies entirely on the shoulders of the school system.

I really have to disagree with this. The sad state of our educational system does NOT lie solely on the school system, it is a JOINT responsibility of the parents and the school to educate their children. Most, if not all, kids that go through the school system and never learn to read, first, never came to school prepared for school. Their parents never read them a book, taught them to count, taught them colors, shapes, etc. Chances are these kids didn't have breakfast and may or may not have had dinner the night before.

Why doesn't a parent know by the end of oh, first or second grade that their child can't read and what did they do about that? How many of these kids had a parent ever show up for a parent/teacher conference? How many of these kids see their parents every day? Schools can only do so much and they are expected to do more and more every day that have nothing to do with educating children--did you see the post where the teacher was expected to give a student a rectal medication??

What amazes me is how many people on this board alone complain and complain about their local schools yet, what are they doing about it? I have to say the most of the major problems many have experienced here with their schools--not having funding for books, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, the really low quality of teachers, etc--do not happen here or even through out Minnesota. There is a reason we rank #1 year after year for the quality of the education and that is because parents are involved or at least a large majority of parents are involved in their schools. They turn out to vote for new school board members, if something isn't going right, they do something about it.

Yes, there are substandard teachers, just as there are substandard, doctors, lawyers, dentists, policemen, firemen, garbage men, nurses, computer programmers, just people in general. The question is WHY aren't you doing something to make your schools better???????

 

[meandtheguys2]

You misunderstand I am not blaming the teachers, I am blaming the system. And I am on a state board attempting to deal with some of the problems re. the screwed up testing that goes on in Ohio in the school systems. (NO CLUE ABOUT YOUR STATE)So far we are up o about 500 donated hours of work, BTW.

The educational system in general follows every screwball that comes along, changes the name, adds more hours of schooling and throws a bit more money after the problem. They spend too much time inflating "self-esteem" and teaching diversity instead of instilling skills. The educational classes at our college are the joke of the school, which ranks in the top 100 colleges. They focus on unproven theories rather than looking for what has been proven to work. They talk of parents as though they are idiots, reallly clueless HBings.

I vote for levies, I donate books, and my scholoastic points for classrooms, I donate school supplies, and I help feed the handful of kids at the local shelter a couple of am's a week to hopefully start their day a bit better. And I dog sit for the HS principal and his 3rd grade teaching wife...

I think that the fact that a ridiculous number of kids enter college taking remedial coursework is the fault of this system. Yes, some kids are messed up from difficult family issues, but many who slide right thru the system do not fit in this category. For people to holler for accountabiliy for HSers when their school systems suck, truly amazes me.

Frankly as taxpayers folks should be delighted to not be paying to educate my children.

 

[golfgal]

You misunderstand I am not blaming the teachers, I am blaming the system. And I am on a state board attempting to deal with some of the problems re. the screwed up testing that goes on in Ohio in the school systems. (NO CLUE ABOUT YOUR STATE)So far we are up o about 500 donated hours of work, BTW.

The educational system in general follows every screwball that comes along, changes the name, adds more hours of schooling and throws a bit more money after the problem. They spend too much time inflating "self-esteem" and teaching diversity instead of instilling skills. The educational classes at our college are the joke of the school, which ranks in the top 100 colleges. They focus on unproven theories rather than looking for what has been proven to work. They talk of parents as though they are idiots, reallly clueless HBings.

I vote for levies, I donate books, and my scholoastic points for classrooms, I donate school supplies, and I help feed the handful of kids at the local shelter a couple of am's a week to hopefully start their day a bit better. And I dog sit for the HS principal and his 3rd grade teaching wife...

I think that the fact that a ridiculous number of kids enter college taking remedial coursework is the fault of this system. Yes, some kids are messed up from difficult family issues, but many who slide right thru the system do not fit in this category. For people to holler for accountabiliy for HSers when their school systems suck, truly amazes me.

Frankly as taxpayers folks should be delighted to not be paying to educate my children.

I guess I can honestly say that our school system does not suck. We are lucky. It isn't perfect by any means, but for the most part the kids get a good education and are ready for college/life when they graduate. Yes, there are kids that don't do so well, but it isn't like they don't have the opportunity to do well, the kids CHOOSE not to put forth the effort. I was golfing with one of the HS social studies teachers and we were talking about one boy in her class that honestly asked her if she really meant it when she said they had to do their homework and turn it in. Um, yes! He didnt' turn in a single assingment and faild the course. He was back in her class the next semester and turned in everything and got an A. Some kids just have to learn the hard way. How is this in ANY way the fault of the school system. It just isn't.

I don't know of any of our friends with kids going into college that are taking remedial courses in ANYTHING, but then again, there is a reason we rank #1 in education-because our schools are good.

I just know too many homeschooled kids that are just not up to par because their parents don't think they need to learn algebra or proper grammer or history, etc OR they don't know how to do it themselves so they can't teach it. I am not saying that all or even most HS families are like this, but with no regulations (in our state anyway) parents can get away with this with no recourse and then where are the kids when they turn 18 and can't add? Yes, these families are out there. You know it as well as I do.

School districts do standardized testing, why not homeschooled kids?

 

[auntpolly]

Yes, these families are out there. You know it as well as I do.

In fact, I doubt if I'd have such a problem if I knew otherwise. If I saw a bunch of families that had homeschooled really well, then I'd probably like the idea better.

You guys are just names on a computer - the ones I've seen in real life are not such shining examples.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Which is fine, but it is NOT required and that is my point. It sounds like you have a good group, but in MY experience, that is not the norm. I know well over 50 families that homeschool and NONE of them use and independent testing source-they don't want to pay for it. I am sure many other do, but the point is it isn't required and there are MANY, MANY unqulaified people out there teaching their children. You know this as well as I do. So what do these kids do when they turn 18 and can't pass the ACT/SAT and get into college, trade school or what ever. It is a little late then.

Very intersting how you bring up this whole testing thing and certification--and I happen to get a hold of an excellent article today:
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/ (David Bartons article)

*Talks about a nation-wide trend that encourages teachers to "cheat" for their students on these tests

*That a percentage of "qualified" teachers are actually incompetent....that it is easier to convict a murderer than to fire an unqualified teacher...

*education majors have the LOWEST scores on the SAT than any other major

*teachers must get test in 29 states for math...but only one has a minimum scoring requirement and that is for its teachers to be 'average'

*In Philly--“half of the district’s 690 middle school teachers who took exams in math, English, social studies and science in September and November failed.” And they are still TEACHING!

Regrettably, when groups clamor for “certified” teachers, today the phrase has become relatively meaningless. In fact, home-schooled students average 30 to 37 academic points higher than their counterparts in public schools on the same academic tests, even though less than 14 percent of homeschool “teachers” (i.e., moms) are certified. Similar results are seen in private schools, where the majority of teachers are not certified yet produce academic results well above their counterparts in public schools. Public school certification is no longer any assurance of quality.

So it seems that what you feel is flawed for the accountability of homeschooling--it is just as flawed for the public school's accountability.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why doesn't a parent know by the end of oh, first or second grade that their child can't read and what did they do about that? How many of these kids had a parent ever show up for a parent/teacher conference?

Well perhaps if the school didn't do social promotion--that woudl be a good clue that they aren't mastering the skills necessary. You don't need a parent/teacher conference for the parents permission to flunk a child.

What amazes me is how many people on this board alone complain and complain about their local schools yet, what are they doing about it?

We take charge of our child's education!!! And teach them ourselves.
My job is a parent--it isn't to go and make sure the public school--who gets tax money and paychecks to educate my child. A parent should not have to breath down their neck to make sure they are doing it.

My mom "slipped" through the system. She was a drop out--later got her GED and her AS or AA (If forget which). We moved so many times and she had to work--so every year we conferenced with the new school and she stayed on top of my education to make sure I didn't fall through the cracks. Now, she didn't help with my homework or anything. But good grief--why does it have to be all about squeeky wheels getting the grease!

You can compare it to nursing homes--those patients who's families visit often--get cared for better. The education system should NOT be that way. It is one thing to be involved with your child's education (which homeschooler's are 100%). It is another thing to have to police the school to make sure they are doing their jobs properly.

I have to say the most of the major problems many have experienced here with their schools--not having funding for books, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, the really low quality of teachers, etc--do not happen here or even through out Minnesota. There is a reason we rank #1 year after year for the quality of the education and that is because parents are involved or at least a large majority of parents are involved in their schools. They turn out to vote for new school board members, if something isn't going right, they do something about it.

That is a blessing that your state could do that--but what does parental involvement have to do with having a good supply of toilet paper? Is it b/c there are more parents availalbe to sell candy bars and magazines???

I've seen on the news--school board meetings get shut out b/c the place is so crammed---yet it does very little often times.

Yes, there are substandard teachers, just as there are substandard, doctors, lawyers, dentists, policemen, firemen, garbage men, nurses, computer programmers, just people in general. The question is WHY aren't you doing something to make your schools better???????

B/c my kids don't go there so it isn't my school. Homeschoolers get asked WHY they don't send kids to public school. We've given the reasons why. I am responsible for my child's education and noone else's. Why waste the energy swimming upstream....when I can more easily just educate my child as the law allows.

Going to all the school board meetings in the world will not change one bit the state portion of the schools. They're all competing to be "A" schools.....the test's importance supercedes anything the parents have to say.

The law gives the right for you to choose HOW to educate your child. Public, private, or home.

Do you badger those who send their kids to private school?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I just know too many homeschooled kids that are just not up to par because their parents don't think they need to learn algebra or proper grammer or history, etc OR they don't know how to do it themselves so they can't teach it. I am not saying that all or even most HS families are like this, but with no regulations (in our state anyway) parents can get away with this with no recourse and then where are the kids when they turn 18 and can't add? Yes, these families are out there. You know it as well as I do.

School districts do standardized testing, why not homeschooled kids?

Not all students who graduate high school---necessarily took a college prep route.

Parents evaluate their students and go from there. They can make choices and this is a wonderful thing.

You cannot "standardized test" a student--b/c there is no cookie cutter image on what a 3rd grade homeschooling student is.

I met a family once---these kids are about 2nd and Kindergarten chronological age--but they are grade level...about 5th/6th and 2nd respectively.

So sure they can take a standardized test--but what exactly would it prove?

I always thought standardize tests were funny----in 5th grade..I was testing at the 10th and 11th grade levels for reading and math.....how exactly did that test know that? It was like--wahoooo!!! promote me now b/c i'm so smart! I saw nothing on that test that looked like I should be in high school....but hot diggity when I got the test results.

Standardized testing is a joke--b/c they do not measure actual knowledge. So you can read, write, and do math. Big deal---how's the rest of the skills for your grade? I think the reason for "standardized testing" is a valiant one--different teachers have different styles...even when teaching the mandatory district curriculum. You need some way to measure that the students are meeting the standards. I just don't like class time wasted to teach a test which is either going to say your kid really really sucks---or they are some super genious. It means nothing if a kid is promoted anyway b/c they somehow passed a grade.

I took the Florida exam--when I moved here senior year....taking AP Calculus at the time. I don't know what I did--but holy cow....I was just a few points from having to take remedial math. WHAT?????? And I assure you--my math skills are very much okay to this day. I can do all the necessary pleasures (some call it evil) of math. Even funnier was whatever corresponds to vocab/reading.....was really high! Now that was the joke of the year!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The structure of most public school classes is quite similar to those at large colleges from my experience. That can be a handicap but at the same time it can help prepare a high school student for what lies ahead.

IMHO the auditorium size classes are handicaps in themselves. I went to 10 different schools in my 12 years...nothing prepared me for a class with a cast of hundreds.

 

[sha_lyn]

a good article on the socialization question

http://www.nhen.org/newhser/default.asp?id=415

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

that is a good article, sha lyn!

 

[auntpolly]

So what you're saying is that you don't like socialization, as it is defined in the article, because other people's 6 year olds are bad influences for your child? Honestly, I'm not trying to be flippant -- is that the point?

I guess this is the crux of our debate - in a nutshell, then. I think socialization with people I haven't handpicked is crucial for a child's developement.

 

[sha_lyn]

did you even read it? The point is what you call socialization is not socialization. It is socializing. It is pointless to answer a question when the person asking it doesn't know the meaning of the word they are using.

 

[auntpolly]

did you even read it? The point is what you call socialization is not socialization. It is socializing. It is pointless to answer a question when the person asking it doesn't know the meaning of the word they are using.

I read it - and I still want to know the answer to my question. When I ask the question, I mean it in the way that your article defines - so what is the answer?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So what you're saying is that you don't like socialization, as it is defined in the article, because other people's 6 year olds are bad influences for your child? Honestly, I'm not trying to be flippant -- is that the point?

No--that isn't the point.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I read it - and I still want to know the answer to my question. When I ask the question, I mean it in the way that your article defines - so what is the answer?

One entry found for socialize.


Main Entry: so·cial·ize
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
transitive senses
1 : to make social; especially : to fit or train for a social environment
2 a : to constitute on a socialistic basis <socialize industry> b : to adapt to social needs or uses <socialize science>
3 : to organize group participation in <socialize a recitation>
intransitive senses : to participate actively in a social group
- so·cial·i·za·tion /"sO-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n/ noun
- so·cial·iz·er /'sO-sh&-"lI-z&r/ noun


The answer is--to meet the definition of socialize--one needn't be in a school! Socialization is not something to be taught academically.

 

[auntpolly]

One entry found for socialize.


Main Entry: so·cial·ize
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
transitive senses
1 : to make social; especially : to fit or train for a social environment
2 a : to constitute on a socialistic basis <socialize industry> b : to adapt to social needs or uses <socialize science>
3 : to organize group participation in <socialize a recitation>
intransitive senses : to participate actively in a social group
- so·cial·i·za·tion /"sO-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n/ noun
- so·cial·iz·er /'sO-sh&-"lI-z&r/ noun


The answer is--to meet the definition of socialize--one needn't be in a school! Socialization is not something to be taught academically.

No, I get that - you guys aren't answering my question. When I talk about socialization, your definition is the one I think of. The article says:


I've never really thought that a complete strangers six-year old child would be a good source of information on the correct standards of behavior in our family and in society as a whole.

I would argue with that - I think a complete strangers 6 year old is very important to my children. As are many other complete strangers my DD met in the controlled envirmoment of a traditional school.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No, I get that - you guys aren't answering my question. When I talk about socialization, your definition is the one I think of. The article says:


I've never really thought that a complete strangers six-year old child would be a good source of information on the correct standards of behavior in our family and in society as a whole.

I would argue with that - I think a complete strangers 6 year old is very important to my children. As are many other complete strangers my DD met in the controlled envirmoment of a traditional school.

True--my kids hang out with kids whose parents I know.

Do I want to be my kids number one peer influence---heck yes I do!!!

My kid meets "strangers" all the time---but since I am there...if the kid has behaviors I don't approve of....it can be taken care of. I cannot have any control over who she is exposed to at school--be it the sweetest angel on earth...or the worst little hellion to roam the planet.

It doesn't block anything in the real world. My child will see more of the real world than she will be in a classroom. She will be learning about life just fine!