Homeschooling, ADD, and college entrance exams (possible debate)

[Pinnie]

Schools are unwilling to spend the money for smaller classrooms for children like my son, .

I respectfully disagree. I am a former Special Ed teacher and currently teach kindergarten in a suburban district. We would LOVE smaller class sizes, but where are we going to get the money for more teachers, more classrooms, more supplies, books, computers, etc. for these classrooms????

A district has a finite number of dollars to work with and once they are spent, they just can't go to the Xeron machine and print more.

I wish there was another way to fund education, but there isn't and we have to work within the system we have.

pinnie

 

[tw1nsmom]

Actually, lack of immediate funding cannot (although it often is) be used as an excuse for not following the IEP of a special ed. student. If therapists/doctors/professionals say that a small integrated class environment is what an individual student (or group of students) need to succeed, then it's the responsibility of the school to find the funds to provide the accomodation. There are federal funds that a school can apply for to offset the cost. However, in my experience with the local advocacy group, school districts often need to be convinced through legal channels to provide these sorts of accomodations. That's why testing accomodations and regular classroom accomodations are imperative to many learning disabled students.

Our school district recently spent over $1,000,000 to build a new swimming pool. This, despite the knowledge that there was going to be a big leap in enrollment that would make our schools unworkably overcrowded. Additionally, they had the knowledge that there will be an unprecedented number of children with disabilities entering kindergarten in 2005 and that they needed additional space to accomodate them. Instead, my son will be receiving speech therapy in what was literally a broom closet and he will receive physical and occupational therapy from a teachers aide in a former janitors area, because the two occupational therapists and two physical therapists that serve all four elementary schools don't have time to actually provide the therapy for the students. So, even though on the school website they acknowledge that it is a need that they must look into in the future, and despite the fact that every professional involved in my son's care has said that he needs a small classroom environment, I find myself fighting to get a shared special education aid in a kindergarten class of 25 and later a first grade class that will most likely reach 30.

So, when it's said that schools would love to provide smaller class sizes but can't due to lack of funds, perhaps it's not so much a lack of funds as much as it's a misplacement of priorities.

 

[Pinnie]

Tw1nsmom, you made some points. But the way our funding here in MI is structured, we can NOT use capital funds (which are building improvements, like new boilers, roofs, pools, etc) for salaries and classroom supplies. We can not also use bond money approved by our voters for technology, (like new computers and software) for any other classroom needs. So, we, too, have 3 new High School field houses, new artificial turf for our football fields, but we lost our para-pros for early childhood and our class size is up.

While I am in total agreement that it shouldn't BE that way, until it changes on the government end of things, we will continue to have 28 kindergarteners without a para-pro, but we have a nice new computers in the classroom. <sigh> and new windows to look out of.

pinnie

 

[BuzznBelle'smom]

OT, but tw1nsmom, what school district are you? I also live in upstate NY, but it's a big place! I've been fortunate that my kids don't need special services, but I also get the runaround on gifted stuff for them. Just wanted to see if the grass is any other color in other towns.

 

[tw1nsmom]

I understand that there are different allocation of funds within budgets. However, the same capital fund that builds swimming pools and buys windows could have been used to add classroom space. Additional bonds, like those used for swimming pools, as well as federal grants can be used to fund additional teacher salaries. Regardless of all that, when schools fail to provide for a students IEP, they are breaking federal law.

Now, to put all that into the context of th OP. Even with people like me fighting for our children's rights/needs, it is an uphill, long battle to get academically challenging, integrated small special needs classes. Until those classes exist, children like my son will need to rely on general education teachers understanding and implimenting classroom and testing modifications to help them succeed in an environment that is less than ideal. It's discouraging when teachers like Rokkitsci are so openly resentful of having to provide modifications and admit to wishing that all children in need of accomodations were sent to seperate classes.

 

[yeartolate]

I may get flamed, but I think a large part of the problem with the girl in the original post is that she was homeschooled.

I don't mean to imply that homeschooling is bad, but since she had ADD, she wasn't challanged regularlly or well enough to adapt to the "outside world".

I can only imagine what she will go through - from one on one to large college classes .

 

[disneymom3]

, but since she had ADD, she wasn't challanged regularlly or well enough to adapt to the "outside world". .

How do you know that? Were you in her house everyday? Maybe this kid participated in a co-op with a big group of kids. Maybe she volunteers in her local library or vetrinarians office. Just because she has trouble taking tests doesn't mean she has no coping skills or ability to deal with the outside world.

 

[yeartolate]

How do you know that? Were you in her house everyday? Maybe this kid participated in a co-op with a big group of kids. Maybe she volunteers in her local library or vetrinarians office. Just because she has trouble taking tests doesn't mean she has no coping skills or ability to deal with the outside world.

The only thing I am aware of is that she went to homeschooling because she did better in a one to one situation because of her ADD.

My point is that traditional high school might help her transition into a successfull college career rather than the baptism by fire method that she will go through at this point. I do not think there would be any volunteer or coop situation that could simulate the college experience.

One of the biggest challanges for her would be to adapt to a more stressful learning enviroment. I jsut think a steady transition would eventually give her a more successful college experience - now maybe her mom wants to tag by her side and squeeze out every last possible adaptation available through ADA throughout college, but I hardly think this will translate into an independent well rounded adult.

 

[meandtheguys2]

I may get flamed, but I think a large part of the problem with the girl in the original post is that she was homeschooled.

I don't mean to imply that homeschooling is bad, but since she had ADD, she wasn't challanged regularlly or well enough to adapt to the "outside world".

I can only imagine what she will go through - from one on one to large college classes .

If she hadn't been homeschooled there is a huge chance that she would not be college material now. I don't know the latest stats re. ADD and ADHD but when I worked in the schools as mental health consultant, those kids were stashed away in the classes for Behavioral or Learning Disorders. And these kids were not being trained for college. They were being restrained and medicated to fit into the system. The ones left in the regular classroom are often bored, or ignored, or ridiculed for having difficulties and being different.

I stated earlier, and I standby my statement that school is the artificial environment here, not real life. In real life, ADD folks have multiple options for career and life choices. Sitting in a classroom is not a required skill, if the person can develop the other skills necessary.

Yes, she may have a difficult time getting through her education and life in general. But that would more than likely be the case anyway. Because of her disability.

 

[yeartolate]

.
I stated earlier, and I standby my statement that school is the artificial environment here, not real life. In real life, ADD folks have multiple options for career and life choices. Sitting in a classroom is not a required skill, if the person can develop the other skills necessary.

So if her short term goal is college, do you think with her ADD going straight from a one on one learning situation into college would be best? I am not knocking homeschooling at all, I think it can provide an exceptional education. But I think if one to one learning (because of ADD) has been the bulk of her high school experience, her ability to adapt to college may be minimal.

 

[missypie]

Rokitsci, you've given me another thing to pray about every night: that my DS14 with Asperger's Syndrome and ADD never has a teacher like you!!!

DS takes Concerta but it took us a while to realize that it wasn't kicking in by the beginning of his 1st period Algebra class. He told is, "I can tell when my pill hasn't kicked in. I stare at the posters on the wall and the pictures start to move and there is sound, too, and I can't look away." How can the kid learn Algebra when there is an entire movie going on in his head?

It is simply heartbreaking to read message boards of teens with very high IQs but who have low test scores or GPAs due to neurological disabilities...they have a very hard time getting into college...what a dismal future, for a very bright young person to face a lifetime of "underemployment" because he didn't receive sufficient accomodations in high school. (But I don't think mom should be giving ACT or SAT tests.)

 

[meandtheguys2]

So if her short term goal is college, do you think with her ADD going straight from a one on one learning situation into college would be best? I am not knocking homeschooling at all, I think it can provide an exceptional education. But I think if one to one learning (because of ADD) has been the bulk of her high school experience, her ability to adapt to college may be minimal.

Fair enough! I do see your point.

The poor kid either gets reamed as a youngster or reamed as an adult due to circumstance beyond her control! I hope she figures out how to accomplish what she wants from life!

 

[yeartolate]

Fair enough! I do see your point.

The poor kid either gets reamed as a youngster or reamed as an adult due to circumstance beyond her control! I hope she figures out how to accomplish what she wants from life!

I think that type of thinking is a handicap. Pity for this person would not be helpful. What is wrong with meeting challanges gradually to accomplish your goals in life?

 

[meandtheguys2]

Actually I feel sadness for anyone that has to fight the world with less resources. Whether that is helpful or not. And nothing is wrong with your plan, except there are very few chances to integrate a child gradually into that wonderful reality we call school. Around here, after gradeschool, the options include "alternative school" mostly kids that have been kicked out of reg. classes and the BD class. I have never seen ANY learning occur in these classes. They are babysitting classes so that a kid can be considered "in school."

Frankly, as I stated before, I do not believe it is possible to take the SAT at home with a parent proctoring, and I do not think it should be. Past that point, it has been up to this child's parent and the local school board to decide what was in her best interest. Second guessing by the outside world seems a bit silly.

 

[Bayshore Bandit]

Since when does having a high I.Q. automatically track a high school student
into some great employment opportunity?

 

[meandtheguys2]

Since when does having a high I.Q. automatically track a high school student
into some great employment opportunity?

There are no guarantees, but if someone is not able to learn due to circumstances beyond their control, there is NO chance.

An example being me taking Algebra and Algebra 2 in high school. Up until HS I was in the top 3 of our class in math. I hit Algebra, could consistently give the correct answers, but not figure them out per the instructions and format required. Squeezed by in misery and never took math any further. Not because I was stupid or lazy, but because my brain was wired differently. Now on my ACT I scored very well in both language and math, because I was not required to "show my work!"

Did this ruin my life? Nah! But it did influence my career choices, as well as leave me saying stupid things like "I am not a math person!" If school is about learning, then kids need to be given every posible chance at doing so.

Since I have leaped into this, I would like to say that every kid who wiggles is not ADD. Some kids do just need to be taught to concentrate and sit still. DS% is a wiggler who talks too much. He is learning the skill of sitting and respecting others with silence! When discussing the need to work with these kids, I am talking about properly diagnosed children who are under appropriate treatment for their illness.

 

[Rokkitsci]

I understand that there are different allocation of funds within budgets. However, the same capital fund that builds swimming pools and buys windows could have been used to add classroom space. Additional bonds, like those used for swimming pools, as well as federal grants can be used to fund additional teacher salaries. Regardless of all that, when schools fail to provide for a students IEP, they are breaking federal law.

Now, to put all that into the context of th OP. Even with people like me fighting for our children's rights/needs, it is an uphill, long battle to get academically challenging, integrated small special needs classes. Until those classes exist, children like my son will need to rely on general education teachers understanding and implimenting classroom and testing modifications to help them succeed in an environment that is less than ideal. It's discouraging when teachers like Rokkitsci are so openly resentful of having to provide modifications and admit to wishing that all children in need of accomodations were sent to seperate classes.

I support your efforts to get your child into a special class more suited to his needs.

My "resentment" towards these "accomodations" stems from the fact that they DO NOT WORK. What is your understanding of the goal? - Do you want your child to LEARN something - or just get a passing grade. I am telling you my experience, limited though it is. My experience tells me that these accomodations do NOTHING to increase a student's understanding of the subject. All they do is help the child get a better grade than otherwise would be the case. They give a false sense of accomplishment. They are counterproductive - if education is the goal.

I happen to think that school is there as a facility for learning. I understand that many people now want it to be various other things - therapy - babysitting - keeping kids off the street - socialization - athletics - societal experimentation - and a myriad of other things. It is MY opinion that a school should be engaged in EDUCATION.

I have trememdous sympathy for children with medical problems. Sadly, I am not a doctor, nor a nurse. There is very little I can hope to accomplish with a child suffering many of these diseases. I am merely a retired engineer who has returned to the classroom to try to do something positive about our next generation's educational status. I have witnessed the results of the abysmal mathematical preparation our schools are providing.

My question to you = and to the others who call me heartless = What are the rights of the OTHER 24 students in each class? Are you suggesting that their education be slighted? If I could be all things to all people, I would surely do so. Sadly I am not. I believe that my responsibility is to teach mathematics as best as I can.

Now, my comments are reserved to the high school level. How these problems are met in the primary schools is not in my area of expertise. I do know that accomodations accomplish nothing in the way of education for those whom I have observed. All they do is push undereducated students into a higher level where they are even further behind. I see no sense in it. High school students are just a step or so away from getting into the real world. They need all the preparation they can get.

I also have tremendous sympathy for some OTHER "special ed" students in my classes. I have at least FIVE students who I have had to abandon. I just do not have the time to attend to their needs. They happen to be very smart and dedicated and courteous and ambitious students who have a real chance of accomplishing great things in the world. Sadly, I am unable to tend to their needs. They are having to go it on their own. They are so far ahead of the rest of the class that they are bored. Do you have any sympathy for their plight? I certainly do - I feel that the school system is really short changing them. I wish I could no more. Every hour I spend making a special test for an ADD student to take just so he can get a passing grade is an hour that I do not have to spend creating an exciting project to challange the minds of these students.

Create me a 36 hour day and I will take care of YOUR son as well as the other honor students. Until then, I have to use the 24 hours I am working with as best I can.

 

[kathyk2]

Do you really believe that having kids with special needs in a classroom is a bad thing? There can be some bright kids who happen to have disabilities I know I was one myself. Did it ever occur to you that having kids of all abilities in the classroom teaches lessons that can't be found in a textbook? Inclusion may not be perfect but it's a far better system than we had before. I've seen older people with disabilities who have trouble with reading and math because noone taught them as children.