Homeschooling, ADD, and college entrance exams (possible debate)

stm61 said:
as a former special ed teacher, a person with ADD, and the mother of an ADHD and an ADD child, I have no problems with accomadations on the college level for note taking, tape recorders, etc. I do have a problem with ACT or SAT aid. Most people are going to do better at home with mom, most will also do better in a room alone. Once a person enters college they aren't going to be the only one in the classroom and will have to deal with the distractions that come with it so I am not in favor of taking the test alone. Not sure my feelings on other accomadations such as extra time, I've never had to think about it before. Since I never taught 11th or 12th gr students and my oldest is 11, I'm not sure if our state allows accomadations on the hs exit exam. I know for sure that the military entrance exam, ASVAB, does not allow anything.

Extra time is important in certain cases such as my daughter who received extra time on her ACT because of her physical disability. She has CP. It should also be noted that all SAT or ACT scores where special accomodation was used are coded as such so the college knows.

She also, as a Freshman in college gets extra time on tests (she takes them at the Disability center in a room with a test proctor and other disabled/handicapped students). If the class is an hour she gets 1 and a half hours, if it's a 2 hour class she gets 3 hours, this is because of the CP -- she simply can't write, type or fill in the tiny little circles on scan tests as quickly as a non disabled student.
 
Actually it is much easier in the real world to accomodate personal issues. The school setting is an artificial one. ADD folks I know have chosen both very busy active jobs (construction etc.) as well as very quiet private jobs (accountant) and both have done very well.

That being said, no one should get to take the test at home and with a parent administering. It leaves open to many possibilities and accusations. And, no, I don't think the average parent would cheat any more than I believe the average teacher would manipulate test results due to NCLB or state mandates.
 
yeartolate said:
On another board there was a discussion about a homeschooled person with ADD getting a low score on her ACT, When her mother adminstered the test in a room with just the two of them, her score nearly doubled. They are fighting to get her the official ability to take the test alone or at home.


Wouldn't this really give that person unfair advantage? Wouldn't anyone fair better under those circumstances?

I have to admit I was floored when someone suggested that there were accomodations such as note takers and private rooms for testing at the college level through the ADA.

I am all for ADA helping the young students adapt to there special circumstances, but at the college level I have to admit I was shocked.

Is this kind of accomodation what the American's with Disabilities Act intended?


I think there are 2 separate issues here: the ADA as a civil right and the homeschooling aspect.

Accomodation under the ADA is a right, but homeschooling a child and expecting to be the proctor of testing is a whole different thing.

The mom should hire a proctor or at least go to a legitimate testing facility.
 
I know my brother was a very poor test taker....but he suffered just like everyone else and took it with the group--he eventually got scores high enough to go to college.

I believe in homeschooling as that is what we are opting to do--but there are some bad apples that spoil the bunch--that create the negative stereotypes out there in general about homeschoolers. I had a friend who taught 4th grade (she and any friends I have who are teachers or were going to be teachers thinks homeschooling is a terrible idea--ETA, but she had very legitimate issue with a student). She had a student who returned to traditional school. The homework came in immaculate..but in the classroom, the handwriting wasn't very good and the student didn't do well on test. In this particular case--the student was never taught to do his work independently. His mother always assisted. Nothing wrong with that--but in homeschooling--there does have to be a balance, and the student must learn to do tasks independently.

When I read how the student in the OP DOUBLE his score at home---I really wonder how much his mother aided her either directly or indirectly. So if she needs special accomodating that is fine--but it probably should be outside the home--b/c I don't think her profs will be as accomodating to come to her home to administer exams. Not to mention the real world won't be moving their corporate office into mom's garage so that she can do her work properly to earn her paycheck.

If you have a true disability that needs accomodating through ADA--I am all for you getting your fair opportunity to do something....but several students take these test who have ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia or other learning disabilities that make school work and tests more of a challenge--but not so much that they require special accomodations under ADA.
 

phillybeth said:
Why shouldn't diasabled persons have the same right to higher education that everyone else does? Are you saying that at the college level a university should not have to provide equal learning opportunities? So a blind student should have no access to note-takers or braille textbooks.

I don't think a note taker or braille textbook for a blind student is a fair comparison to similar adaptations for ADD students. Although I am not sure if notetakers for the blind are necessary - I had several blind students in my classes (25 years ago!) and they had tape recorders.

I guess I am confused on another level as well. Who would be paying for these note takers for the ADD students?
 
yeartolate said:
I don't think a note taker or braille textbook for a blind student is a fair comparison to similar adaptations for ADD students. Although I am not sure if notetakers for the blind are necessary - I had several blind students in my classes (25 years ago!) and they had tape recorders.

I guess I am confused on another level as well. Who would be paying for these note takers for the ADD students?

Not sure--back when I was in college, there was a Office for Students with Disabilities--and for free, you record the class and they would transcribe the notes. I am sure they have other services--but had gotten into a discussion with someone one day and they did this. I am sure that you had to be considered a disabled student to utilize this service.
 
I think that the part of the transistion I can see is rough is for this child to go from home schooling to the college environment. Even if she gets special test time, the classes are just more distracting. I guess it depends on where she goes.

I have had two Girl Scouts who were homeschooled all the way thru school. One of them went to a small private college and did great, but in fact she probably would have done well anywhere. (Very self motivated, organized etc.) The other just went into a tail spin in college. Having always had one on one instruction she was just unable to adjust to college where things moved fast and not at her pace. I felt very sorry for her when she confessed that she had basically flunked out after her first semester.
 
I didn't read all but just wanted to mention that a "note taker" is for a blind person . Otherwise, they would not be able to complete a standard SAT test (or any other for that matter)
 
I've seen several posts saying how will she do in the real world or take tests in college where she won't get special treatment.

A couple weeks ago a co-worker of mine mentioned that due to her son's learning disability he was allowed to take tests alone because the other students distracted him and he didn't perform as well. He is studying to be a ME, I am unsure of which college.

At the time I was sure she was mistaken - now I am not so sure.

I was amazed that they would let a college student do this - I have met the young man although a bit lazy seems fine.

I believeshe said his learning disability is dyslexia.
 
yeartolate said:
On another board there was a discussion about a homeschooled person with ADD getting a low score on her ACT, When her mother adminstered the test in a room with just the two of them, her score nearly doubled. They are fighting to get her the official ability to take the test alone or at home.


Wouldn't this really give that person unfair advantage? Wouldn't anyone fair better under those circumstances?

I have to admit I was floored when someone suggested that there were accomodations such as note takers and private rooms for testing at the college level through the ADA.

I am all for ADA helping the young students adapt to there special circumstances, but at the college level I have to admit I was shocked.

Is this kind of accomodation what the American's with Disabilities Act intended?

First of all - the concept of ADD being a "disability" is an outright abuse of whatever good the ADA was trying to achieve. In my opinion, 90 percent of all ADD diagnoses are just giving a medical name to what we used to call "spoiled brats." In the past parents and principals gave them little swats to the behind to 'cure' the ADD; these days we give them pills and "accomodations" to allow them to continue their unproductive behaviour.

So what about the other 10 percent? - I am no doctor, so I have to admit there is possibly some medical condition that needs therapy of some sort. My opinion is that I have lived for 66 years and I don't think there are many medical conditions that did not exist in the 50s. We had slackers and cut-ups and non-attentive students in class with us = but they got no sympathy at all from the teachers. In my graduating class of 87, I can think of at least a dozen classmates who would have qualified as ADD. Some of those "ADD-afflicted" teenagers grew up to be bank presidents - owners of successful businesses - political leaders - engineers - church leaders - and I do not know of a single one of them who was unable to support themselves in a guality lifestyle; two of them are millionaires. They all have good families and good jobs and are as happy as the "non-ADD" normal students. I can assure you they got NO accomodations. Their parents did not interfere with the schools decisions on how to discipline them.

I myself am extremely ADD according to the definition used today, and could have grown up with that stigma were it not for Mr. Bray in the fifth grade who whipped my behind so hard that I decided it would be much better to modify my behaviour to avoid the need for any other such 'attitude adjustment.' I certainly did NOT go home and complain to my father because his rule was that if I got a spanking at school, then I got another one as soon as he heard about it. I learned to cope. So did everyone else.

But that was then, and this is now. I am now a math teacher in my local high school. I would be willing to testify that the "accomodations" being afforded these ADD students are nothing short of ridiculous. They achieve nothing positive. They are extremely counterproductive. They waste teachers' time. They give a false sense of acheivement to undeserving students. THey provide the "smart ADD" children an opportunity to "game" the system. In short, these "accomodations" do nothing but pander to personal weaknesses. And they give parents a wedge to use for special treatement of their children. They are a pain in the butt.

I fear that we are in the process of producing a whole generation of young adults where a large portion of them think that they are "owed something" without any significant effort on their part, and that they are "victims" of a non-caring society.

My opinion - if a student truly has a medical condition that separates him from being able to compete with 'normal' classmates in a classroom situation, then that student should be physically separated from the rest of the students as well and be sent to some sort of special education setting where individual needs can be addressed in a tailored environment.

Let me be clear - I am NOT talking about students with genuine disabilities like vision problems, hearing difficulties, or mobility issues. I am ONLY talking about these students who just never learned (my opinion) to sit still and pay attention and do their work.
 
Are you sure this child was given the ACT at home? I homeschooled my kids for 12 years and I know there are some tests that can be given at home(like Iowas), but I didn't think the ACT or SAT qualified. Certainly a student with a bona fide disability of any kind is entitled to accomodations, such as extra time for reading, a notetaker, braille,etc. In the real world people with ADD oaften find their own accomodations, such as working in an ED or working from home, working in a job which requires a lot of physical exercise(think of the UPS guy on MAD TV).

Rokitsci--I don't even know where to begin with your post.:sad2: Kids who have severe ADD are eaten alive by teachers who believe like you do. My son is one of those, and after 5 years of high school, he finally just quit because he just couldn't take it anymore. He's a smart kid, but between his learning disabilities, ADD, and bipolar he just couldn't fight his disabilities AND an unsupportive school system any longer. I think I'll just agree to disagree with your thinking.
 
Let me be clear - I am NOT talking about students with genuine disabilities like vision problems, hearing difficulties, or mobility issues. I am ONLY talking about these students who just never learned (my opinion) to sit still and pay attention and do their work.

What about children with Autism? or Tourettes? or Epilepsy? Are they all just misbehaving as well?

Or maybe we should just point to the teachers who want little Johnny and Jane robot in their classrooms and so there are many children who need extra time and help wind up with "accomodations" to help even the playing field?

It is a societal issue at best and needs to be addressed all the way around. I do agree that some kids need a kick in the pants to set them straight and that medication and "accomodations" are not the answer but there are many more children for whom this is not the case.
 
Just to clarify, I wanted to say that I do not dismiss ADD as a medical problem. But not all medical problems warrant ADA intervention. Other than severe cases I think ADA intervention for ADD should be in elementary and middle school - essentially to work with the child (and parents!) to adapt to their enviroment.
 
yeartolate said:
Just to clarify, I wanted to say that I do not dismiss ADD as a medical problem. But not all medical problems warrant ADA intervention. Other than severe cases I think ADA intervention for ADD should be in elementary and middle school - essentially to work with the child (and parents!) to adapt to their enviroment.
I agree entirely. By the time teenagers get to high school, they need to be able to keep up with a regular classroom, or else they need to be in a special setting. Nothing is created but frustration by keeping a student in an environment they are incapable of functioning within.
 
minkydog said:
Rokitsci--I don't even know where to begin with your post.:sad2: Kids who have severe ADD are eaten alive by teachers who believe like you do. My son is one of those, and after 5 years of high school, he finally just quit because he just couldn't take it anymore. He's a smart kid, but between his learning disabilities, ADD, and bipolar he just couldn't fight his disabilities AND an unsupportive school system any longer. I think I'll just agree to disagree with your thinking.

I meant no disrespect and am extremely sympathetic to your son's condition. I know I would be anquished to have a child in that condition. But, I can assure you I have never "eaten" anyone "alive" in my classroom. I make the accomodations that the job requires. In my opinion, these accomodations do not accomplish anything and are a waste of time, even counter-productive. I object to having to do them.

I would like to be all things to all people and have 72 hours a day to accomplish all that needs to be done. However, I am quite mortal, and live in the real world. I have been given the responsibility to teach math. I want my students to learn as much as they can possibly master.

In high school, a teenager needs to be able to cope with the requirements of the class, or needs to be in a special setting. In my opinion we are already watering down our academics curriculum too much, because students have not been required to "keep up" in prior grades. This needs to stop. We certainly don't need to exacerbate the situation in high school.

I wish your son well. Many people make great lives for themselves in spite of serious disabilities. I hope your son is one of them.
 
yeartolate said:
Just to clarify, I wanted to say that I do not dismiss ADD as a medical problem. But not all medical problems warrant ADA intervention. Other than severe cases I think ADA intervention for ADD should be in elementary and middle school - essentially to work with the child (and parents!) to adapt to their enviroment.

I agree here with you too. But I don't agree 100% with Rokkitsi's first post. Talk about overgeneralization!

I do think that there are many kids who are behavior problems that DO need a "kick in the pants" but having ADD/ADHD does not mean behavioral problems. My son has fairly severe ADHD and has NEVER been a behavioral problem and could always sit in his chair. He fidgets horribly but does not get out of his chair, nor was he ever a discipline problem in the classroom. He just cannot block out and work with other disturbances going on around him.

He is also now medicated and I would never have to ask for any special accommodations. So, just because *I* don't have to ask for them and medicine works for *my* child, should I automatically put out a blanket statement and say: no accommodations should be given because my kid doesn't need them and he has ADHD??

As I stated in my first post to this thread, a good friend of mine who is 54 years old has the worst case of ADHD I have seen and needs LOTS of Ritalin just to function at a level that will allow him to keep his job. Even then, he has a tough time. I don't think it is because his parents never "taught" him how to behave or pay attention. His brother and sister seem to be just fine. :rolleyes:

I also would like to agree with a poster a page or two back that said that it was actually easier to accommodate ADHD in the real world versus school. My DH was told that he had ADHD as a child (they never treated it then, just put him out in the hallway). He is now an electrician and does better with jobs where he is moving around all day and working with his hands. It's funny because he comes home and tells me how, at least, 2 or 3 guys on each of his sites has ADHD to some degree. Another friend's son who has ADHD became a FEDEX delivery guy because he is moving all day. His other son is getting his PhD in chemistry. I guess the parents just didn't "teach" the ADHD to sit and behave and pay attention and poured all their efforts into the son who is a whiz in chemistry.
 
Rokkitsci said:
In high school, a teenager needs to be able to cope with the requirements of the class, or needs to be in a special setting. In my opinion we are already watering down our academics curriculum too much, because students have not been required to "keep up" in prior grades. This needs to stop. We certainly don't need to exacerbate the situation in high school.

The problem in most school districts is that there isn't an appropriate alternative placement for the majority of children with learning disabilities. My son has a tentative diagnosis of nonverbal learning disability. Some people call it a mild Aspbergers. He is a very bright little boy and we live in a very affluent school district. He is receiving preschool special ed. services and will begin kindergarten in the fall. The problem is that it has been recommended that the ideal placement would be in an integrated class of no more than 12 children with minimal distractions. However, no such class exists. In our school district, and many others, you're either in a "regular" class, or a special ed. class. Special ed. classes around here are ussually populated only by those with either severe behavioral problems, or severe cognitive delays. My son has the chance to go on to many different careers in which he could be successful (children with NVLD do well in academic/research/methodical careers). However, if put in a class that doesn't challenge him academically, he won't have the opportunity to learn the material he needs to go on to college. Schools are unwilling to spend the money for smaller classrooms for children like my son, therefore the occomadations you are forced to make are neccessary for his success in life.
 
Schools aren't "unwilling" to spend the money for smaller class sizes.....
a vast majority of districts just flat out don't have the money.

All parents would love to have their child in a class of 12-15 kids,
as a teacher myself, that size is a dream. Unfortunately, I'm afraid
it will never happen.
 





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