High Speed Rail To WDW Approved

[Golf4food]

But you can't compare the US to Europe when it comes to mass transit. Outside of the congested northeast corridor between DC and New York, maybe to Boston, the rest of the US is infinitely more spread out than anywhere in Europe. European cities are more compact, have fewer cars, many have areas cars are not allowed at all/pedestrian only zones (and maybe authorized city busses/trains). US cities go out, not up, so any major US city spreads for miles and miles and miles and the people are likewise spread. Walk to work? Forget about it. Walk to the grocery store or a restaurant? Not very likely for most people. The nearest grocery store to our house is over 2.5 miles away - one way. Work is a little over 10 miles away. Is there a city bus I could take? Nope. I'd have to walk quite a ways to get to a bus stop and then transfer multiple times only to be let off about a mile away from my office and then have to walk and cross conjested roads to get to it. It would also take the better part of close to two hours to do so from start to finish. Or I can drive and not be rained on, not be run over, and only take 20 minutes. The US is just not built for mass transit and it will take a lot of work and a lot of money to get it anywhere near the level of Europe. One short, inevitably underused stretch of track - at great cost - is probably not the best way to get that whole process started.

 

[DC7800]

Though there are some problems with the Florida high-speed rail proposal, it is certainly a very positive step towards passenger rail development in the state. It's not what I'd recommend as the first stage of construction - better to get a conventional 79 m.p.h. system up and running and make incremental improvements to achieve true 'high-speed' rail - and high-speed rail isn't what you want for an airport to WDW conection anyway (that's properly the domain of light-rail or commuter authorities, such as Sun Rail). From the airport to Disney, a true high-speed train would spend so little time at speed that the time savings between 120 m.p.h. and 79 m.p.h. is negligible.

Still, the Orlando to Tampa right-of-way construction will be an important component of any future state-wide rail system. It is clearly a wise investment, but its sort of like getting a Ferrari for your first car instead of your fathers old Chevrolet.

Up in the North East there is a commuter train (Acela) and a slower train that run through the state.

Acela isn't a commuter train, though those do certainly exist in the Northeast (MBTA, MARC, Septa, NJ Transit, etc.). Acela is a high-speed corridor passenger train; There are also "conventional" intercity passenger trains in the Northeast Corridor. Commuter trains operate from major cities to outlying suburbs and nearby communities (D.C. to northern Virginia or southern Maryland, for instance). Intercity trains, either corridor or connecting (often overnight) passenger services travel longer distances; the 455 miles from Boston to Washington for Acela, or more than two thousand miles from Chicago to the west coast.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Uh, why are we talking about trains like they are some kind of new fangled mass transit system? It's like calling Trolley's "light rails". If trains were a great way to move people in America (I'm not talking about EU), then private industry would have done more passenger trains, not less. Exhibit A-Z= Amtrack and the vacuum sound that is government welfare going down the toilet. Is this corporate welfare for Disney and Busch Gardens, and an effort to prop up airlines that fly through Tampa AND "balance" the fact that Orlando is the only reason why some travelers go to FL at all? You bet...

You can blame the National Highway System investment in the earlier part of the 20th Century for the over dependence on cars in the US at the failing of trains. This has lead to more urban sprawl, increased reliance on autos and just generally perceived arrogance.

 

[ChrisFL]

You can blame the National Highway System investment in the earlier part of the 20th Century for the over dependence on cars in the US at the failing of trains. This has lead to more urban sprawl, increased reliance on autos and just generally perceived arrogance.

I ask myself WWWD? What would Walt Do. My guess is he would want a train like this (or, really he'd like a monorail)

Walt understood urban design much better though, than the urban sprawl we ended up with in the decades since. He wanted an airport right on Disney property, which would have a monorail going to EPCOT, the CITY, not the theme park, and then on to the Magic Kingdom

 

[wdwpins]

A standard (not duplex) TGV trainset carries about 400 passengers. Often 2 are coupled together for twice the capacity as you can see in the video below. Take notice of the clips where the TGV is running next to a highway. The speed limit on major French highways is 81 mph--notice how the cars look like they're moving backwards--81 mph vs 187 mph (and now 200 mph on the TGV-Est line). I know Florida could benefit from this--Miami, Fort Myers, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee. Further, if this means pulling some of FL drivers off the road (Miami was voted for the second year in a row as having the worst drivers), then I'm all for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZNMp8SLbT0

 

[bgohre]

Trains have been and will always be a huge waste of time, money and land.

You can spit on it, shine it up and put as much perfume on it as you like. But at the end of the day a pig is still a pig.

They never ever come close to paying for themselves. And yes, I know neither do roads, but roads move huge amounts of people, trains move small groups of people and cost HUGE amounts of money.

Trust me, living in the Twin Cities area I know a little something about wasting tax payers money on trains.

 

[doconeill]

Up in the North East there is a commuter train (Acela) and a slower train that run through the state. My DD recently took the slower, cheaper train from Providence to Boston. $8 each way. No parking issue, no traffic, no GPS needed. It takes 45 minutes on the slow train.

Acela isn't a commuter train, though those do certainly exist in the Northeast (MBTA, MARC, Septa, NJ Transit, etc.). Acela is a high-speed corridor passenger train

Yup...the $8 and 45 minute ride sounds like the MBTA Commuter Rail. It us an outlying suburban system, not terribly fast although it can potentially reach 80mph on its equipment - but the stations are close enough in general that that doesn't happen.

There is the Amtrak Northeast Regional, which is probably a tad shorter because it only makes a few stops between.

The Acela Express is the only one classified as high-speed in the U.S. It runs the same route as the Northeast Regional between Boston and D.C., but makes fewer stops and the equipment is faster, reaching a top speed of 150mph, although they only reach that for a short time somewhere west of Providence. But I think it shaves about 20-25% off the travel time over the Regional over the longer distances.

What I REALLY want is a one-seat Acela ride from Boston to Orlando, for less than a plane ride. Right now, you can only get as far as New York for that...

 

[ChrisFL]

Trains have been and will always be a huge waste of time, money and land.

You can spit on it, shine it up and put as much perfume on it as you like. But at the end of the day a pig is still a pig.

They never ever come close to paying for themselves. And yes, I know neither do roads, but roads move huge amounts of people, trains move small groups of people and cost HUGE amounts of money.

Trust me, living in the Twin Cities area I know a little something about wasting tax payers money on trains.

Riiiiight, and places like Japan and Hong Kong are living in the 3rd world because they take trains everywhere.

 

[TisBit]

Riiiiight, and places like Japan and Hong Kong are living in the 3rd world because they take trains everywhere.

I think you need to compare apples to apples. How big are these countries compared to the US? All of Eurolpe is less than half the US....most countries are smaller than the state of texas.

Japan and Hong Kong (I presume you mean China ) are both smaller than the US. China is the closest in land mass and its rail system is smaller than the US rail systems in place. You are comparing a metro area to a country. New York has a pretty good commuter rail system.....but to get out into the countryside, it is just as difficult, if not more so than the US.

Truth be told we rely on air transportation and have probably one of the most compreshensive air system in the world. How many people live more than an hour or two from an airport...with the exception of the midwest, not many.

 

[Dznefreek]

$114.00
2250 Acela Express

Departs: 10:37 AM
Sat Jan 30 2010
Philadelphia, PA - 30th Street Station (PHL)
Arrives: 11:52 AM
Sat Jan 30 2010
New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP)
Duration: 1 hr, 15 min
Amenities
1 Business Class Seat
1 First Class Seat
(add $65.00)
slightly more than $8.00. . . . . . . .

 

[ChrisFL]

I think you need to compare apples to apples. How big are these countries compared to the US? All of Eurolpe is less than half the US....most countries are smaller than the state of texas.

Japan and Hong Kong (I presume you mean China ) are both smaller than the US. China is the closest in land mass and its rail system is smaller than the US rail systems in place. You are comparing a metro area to a country. New York has a pretty good commuter rail system.....but to get out into the countryside, it is just as difficult, if not more so than the US.

Truth be told we rely on air transportation and have probably one of the most compreshensive air system in the world. How many people live more than an hour or two from an airport...with the exception of the midwest, not many.

But we aren't talking about a country-wide train system here, only a small one in Florida...which is closer to the size of Japan.

As I said before, as long as infrastructure is built around the train, it CAN work.

Americans have been addicted to the automobile far too long, at our own expense. Walt Disney knew this back in the 1960's

 

[wdwpins]

Well said, ChrisFL. I think if some Americans had the opportunity to take the TGV, they'd feel differently.

This video to me expresses the excitement of high-speed rail, giving you perspectives from both inside and outside the trains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tip394JGqNE

Oh, to the poster who said trains don't have the capacity--did you read my post about a double train set carrying 800 passengers? With a duplex train added, it's even more.

 

[doconeill]

$114.00
2250 Acela Express

Departs: 10:37 AM
Sat Jan 30 2010
Philadelphia, PA - 30th Street Station (PHL)
Arrives: 11:52 AM
Sat Jan 30 2010
New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP)
Duration: 1 hr, 15 min
Amenities
1 Business Class Seat
1 First Class Seat
(add $65.00)
slightly more than $8.00. . . . . . . .

Virtucomp was talking about Providence to Boston, which is shorter...but still, the Acela ticket for that run would be $35 (at best 40 minutes), compared to $12 for the regional (45 minutes) and $7.75 for the commuter (which is a lot slower than I thought - 75 minutes).

Three times the cost to save you 5 minutes on the Acela. But it really can't get to speed in that stretch at all because of rail traffic and curves.

To make a really successful high-speed network, you often would need to realign the right-of-ways, which means land-taking, NIMBYs, etc.

Even if you could use the existing ROWs, the "threat" of increased, "dangerous" train traffic brings out the NIMBYs and the lawyers in full force. Heck, they get the lawyers out when the railroads start using their federally-mandated horns at crossings, even after someone gets killed because they didn't hear the train coming...

 

[TisBit]

But we aren't talking about a country-wide train system here, only a small one in Florida...which is closer to the size of Japan.

As I said before, as long as infrastructure is built around the train, it CAN work.

Americans have been addicted to the automobile far too long, at our own expense. Walt Disney knew this back in the 1960's

Which was my point, you were comparing a local train...one line, three stops with a large metro area train system and a countrywide system. Yes, this system can work....and it can also fail miserably...

Americans are addicted to the automobile, but this train system won't solve that problem and it is this addiction that will be the prime reason if the system fails.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

The addiction to the automobile should be quelled through strategic taxation (penalization).

IMO the solution would be, once a modern mass transit system is put in place in a community/city, the taxation on vehicles should be increased dramatically in a phased approach (3 years). This would encourage people to ditch their vehicles, and those who choose to continue to use them would see increased registration fees, corridor fees and increased fuel taxes (think $3.00 a gallon tax). Of course day 1 wouldn't see these costs, rather it would increase year over year until the maximum cap is reached. This would give people time to react and plan.

 

[Pluto 2]

Looks like it's happening.

I'd really like to see this train get up to 217mph instead of only 120

i think 215 mph will be enough.

 

[hildarumpole]

Train fever has infected the US, not just Florida. There are plans to put "high speed" rail all over the place. My state is slated to get an $810 million choo choo between Milwaukee and Madison that's going to go a whopping 79 mph. Tickets will be $40-66. No bargain and definitely not a time saver between driving to the station and having to catch a bus or cab on the other end to get where I want or need to go.

It's just another expensive government feel-good boondoggle that will benefit almost no one, but cost nearly everyone in billions and billions of dollars in taxes over the long run. Just because something is fabulous in Europe and Japan doesn't mean it's going to translate here well at all.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Sounds like a terrorists dream. A train supported on risers going through swamp/underdeveloped land, moving at over 120mph. One small explosive and ???? Also it is one thing to build something like this and put people to work etc....but once its done, then what? Is there a great demand for this? Do alot of people in Tampa/Orlando commute to each others city for work? Is this meant mostly for tourists? I predict this will be like the monorail project in Las Vegas. They connected the convention center to the hotels but nobody uses it and now its bankrupt.

this is beyond stupid....i'm sorry...it has to be said

I mean...you contradict the beginning of your point with the end...if nobody is on it...why would it be a "terrorist's dream"?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

America's predication on the automobile is part "Americana" and part geography....

but it mostly boils down to the same thing: it's all about money.

much more power and money lie in burning the fossils...we all SHOULD know this by now (like other things...but whatever)...and that is probably the single greatest reason why nobody in the US wants to even consider public transport unless it's a necessity and they take it to their minimum paying job (which would make it perfect for WDW).

Just like completely ridiculous roadblocks exist in our research/pharmaceutical/medical/insurance complex to block common sense solutions and protect proftis...so too have the monetary powers that be been dead set on high speed rails or sensible mass transit systems.

I'm not suggesting that we're ever going to be completely transit oriented...obviously we're not going to have the daily 12:05 from Dayton, Ohio to Tuscon, Az....but in the northeast...in california...in florida...the upper midwest....this can and would work if some people would stop waxing their Chevys

Wow...the United States of America...the "can do" leaders of the world!!! only 35 years behind the Europeans and Japanese!!

 

[tazdeb]

America's predication on the automobile is part "Americana" and part geography....

but it mostly boils down to the same thing: it's all about money.

much more power and money lie in burning the fossils...we all SHOULD know this by now (like other things...but whatever)...and that is probably the single greatest reason why nobody in the US wants to even consider public transport unless it's a necessity and they take it to their minimum paying job (which would make it perfect for WDW).

Just like completely ridiculous roadblocks exist in our research/pharmaceutical/medical/insurance complex to block common sense solutions and protect proftis...so too have the monetary powers that be been dead set on high speed rails or sensible mass transit systems.

I'm not suggesting that we're ever going to be completely transit oriented...obviously we're not going to have the daily 12:05 from Dayton, Ohio to Tuscon, Az....but in the northeast...in california...in florida...the upper midwest....this can and would work if some people would stop waxing their Chevys

Wow...the United States of America...the "can do" leaders of the world!!! only 35 years behind the Europeans and Japanese!!

Assuming your correct about how intrenched the car is in American culture and how dependent we are in burning fossil fuels (your right no matter how great the train, people would rather drive) why didn't the administration take a different approch to the problem.....Why didn't the president get in front of the country the way Kennedy did in the 60s with the space/put a man on the moon mission and challenge the country (with the billions meant for the trains finacial backing of course) to create an engine that would get 200 mpg with low emissions or create a reliable battery car. This to me would make much more sense, create more jobs , be better recieved, and might inspire America to achieve something great again. Just the advancments created in battery life, which are in everything from cars to cell phone would be revolutionary. But I digress...You seem to be against the oil/government connection, but while this train WILL benefit the current administrations union buddies, once its done I doubt it will benefit anyone without many more billions spent on other infrastructure.