High School:Good Grades vs. Challenging Classes

[Christine]

Well, Prince William does like to emulate Fairfax, so that gives us hope fthat a grade scale change may come at some point. There's a big on-line petition going around now (Christine - have you seen it on your end of the county? Let me know if you want the link to it) and the people who are behind know how to get things done. Any change to the start time is further off... I'm on a county-wide committee that among other things, gives recommendations to the Superintendent about stuff and this subject has just been put on our agenda. But it was emphasized that they don't expect any action in the short term, if ever. We'll see. Our HS start times are even earlier - more like 7:10 and 7:20

We're still going back and forth about where DS will go to HS. None of his top 3 choices is optimal, and with looming budget cuts (there will be some cuts of upper level classes) it's hard to say which school will end up being hurt the least. Plus he has no clue what he wants to do in life (perfectly reasonable at this point imo). So we're not sure the best academic option is a great fit - it's a very heavy science program/school and it's not where his interests lie at this time. He should be able to handle it academically but he'd likely be gutting it out at an overcrowded school that's a lengthy bus ride away, in a program that probably doesn't interest him. But he'd have access to like 20 AP classes and a nice variety of math/'science classes. In the end I suspect he'll end up at his base school that has minimal AP classes available, so he would most likely be coming out of HS with great grades (or the potential for that ) in regular college prep classes. Then it's a question of how to get into college with this combination I guess...

Yes, I'd like the link. My DS may also be in public high school (Prince William) this fall. I've just mailed in my application for one of the schools (heavy in Science so I'm wondering if it's the same one!!!). He really wants to go to the new Catholic High School as that's where his friends are going but, man, I'd like to quit putting out the $$$$ for that. But to say I am not worried about PWC schools would be an understatement. Plus, my son has NO friends in the public schools. I think it would be a rough start for him.

If you're interested in talking about the PWC schools off-line, I'd love your opinion on them. Having been immersed in parochial for the last 4 years, I'm out of it.

 

[Christine]

To all you Northern Virginian's who want specific GPA requirements for some schools: My DD's school has a great in-school guidance software program called Naviance. I can go onto the site an plug in the college and tell you what the average GPAs/SATs were that got into any particular college for last year and this year. These are "national" GPAs but GPAs particular to her school. They have nice little scattergraphs that show how many of her school's students applied to a particular school and got it and what their GPAs where.

If you want me to look up some schools and post back, I can do that.

 

[agnes!]

For those of you in Fairfax...I found this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202430.html

Jack Dale might want many things, but keeping the old grading scale that penalized Fairfax County Public School students for going to school here ain't gonna happen, the School Board has made that very clear. He tried to ignored his own staff's recommendations, studies/literature on the subject and outside expert opinions including college/university admissions officers to come up with his statement at the beginning of January.

http://commweb.fcps.edu/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=1058

Fairfax County School Board Votes to Change Grading Scale

The Fairfax County School Board has voted to change Fairfax County Public Schools' (FCPS) grading scale by increasing the grade point weight for Advanced Placement (AP), International Baccalaureate (IB), dual enrollment college, and honors courses and has directed Superintendent Jack D. Dale to recommend "variants on a basic ten-point grading scale with pluses and minuses" for implementation at the beginning of the 2009-10 school year.

The change means that students who take AP and IB courses will have an additional .5 weight—for a total of 1.0—added to their grade point average (GPA) calculation. Last night's vote makes this change retroactive for all AP and IB courses on current student transcripts effective January 2009. Seniors will get credit in the GPA calculation for AP and IB courses they are currently taking. Since all students are expected to take the AP or IB exam that corresponds to the course(s) they are taking, FCPS gives the extra points in the seventh semester calculation for the courses students take as seniors. Students enrolled in designated dual enrollment college courses will receive an additional .5 weight—for a total of 1.0—and students enrolled in honors courses will receive a .5 grade point weight, effective during the 2009-10 school year. This will allow the Superintendent time to determine consistency in what constitutes honors-level classes.

"The School Board received considerable feedback from the community about this issue," said Dan Storck, School Board chair. "We felt it was important to make the change so that our students can be judged comparably with students around the country when college admissions and scholarships are at stake while maintaining the high academic standards that Fairfax County Public Schools are known for."

The new grading scale will include pluses and minuses in an attempt to more accurately represent student achievement while aligning FCPS more closely with grading scales in other school districts and reflecting the high academic standards of Fairfax County Public Schools. Dale's recommendation for a new grading scale is due to the Board by the end of March.

Here's a link to some information about Dale ignoring staff recommendations & expert opinions:
http://www.fairgrade.org/announcement.aspx?AID=213

Also, for those in Fairfax County, this little tidbit came out during this whole process. Since Fairfax County does not include class rank in student transcripts, the news that FCPS was not following state regs on including grade distribution data was most distressing and really could have hurt students who applied for early acceptance. The date on this is from fall 2008, hopefully it will be changed for those going through the college admission process for next year.
http://www.fairgrade.org/announcement.aspx?AID=201
Fairgrade Discovers FCPS Failed to Implement VA Transcript Requirement
....

Because FCPS does not, and is not required to provide class rank, the grade distributions provide colleges and universities a better picture of a student's performance by showing if a student's GPA falls into the top 5%, top 10%, 20% etc. of their class. Colleges and universities need to understand that a 3.7 weighted GPA at a FCPS high school means something very different from a 3.7 GPA at a comparable high school. Grade distributions are also important because when FCPS students are compared to applicants from top performing schools, FCPS students could look like underachievers. FCPS students outperform the state and much of the nation with high SAT scores, but have comparatively low GPAs.

Christine - The Naviance program sounds intriguing.

Also, the crazy start times for the high-schoolers are under study for change:
Fairfax County Citizens Urged to Take Online Survey on School Start and Dismissal Times
http://commweb.fcps.edu/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=1070
Fairfax County School Board Invites Public Comment on School Start and Dismissal Times
http://commweb.fcps.edu/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=1064

agnes!

 

[punkin]

DD16's school also has naviance. I was wondering how to use that to figure out if the school is a safety or a match or reach.

 

[Christine]

DD16's school also has naviance. I was wondering how to use that to figure out if the school is a safety or a match or reach.

I don't think you can do that with it. Once her info is loaded in there (GPA and test scores) you can then select the college you are interested in, bring up their graph, and you will see (with a red X") where your daughter falls amidst all of the school's applicants. If her X falls within a lot green marks (acceptances) you can figure that you're on the right track. I always get a kick out of pulling up the graph for UVA.

 

[Camicar]

Keep in mind that private schools have a lot more money to give and often end up costing less then public schools. Don't discount them automatically or you may end up paying more for school then you should.

That is a very important point. Oftentimes, you end up paying the same or less to go to a private school. I know in my case, SUNY said I was eligible for NO scholarships or aid (beyond the whopping $250 yearly Regents scholarship), but the private universities looked at the same FAFSA and grades and made generous offers (nearly full ride at University of Rochester and Carnegie Mellon, for example).

 

[Christine]

That is a very important point. Oftentimes, you end up paying the same or less to go to a private school. I know in my case, SUNY said I was eligible for NO scholarships or aid (beyond the whopping $250 yearly Regents scholarship), but the private universities looked at the same FAFSA and grades and made generous offers (nearly full ride at University of Rochester and Carnegie Mellon, for example).

Do you have any insight into what a private school might offer a "so so" or struggling student?

I know a few who've gone private but they are very good students and often got half of their tuition bill waived (which made it comparable to state prices). I just haven't seen a student, such as my daughter, get anything.

 

[châteaux]

.

 

[shortbun]

We're going through this decision right now. We've talked to two college admissions people and they said, 'go for the better grades.' I think my son will be happier if able to participate in lots of extra stuff too rather than sitting home with homework every night.

 

[PlutoPony]

We're going through this decision right now. We've talked to two college admissions people and they said, 'go for the better grades.' I think my son will be happier if able to participate in lots of extra stuff too rather than sitting home with homework every night.

Thank you for that input, You're making me feel better as I'm beginning to think that's the direction my son will go.

Can you give me a sense if these counselors were from top tier, mid-tier, lower tier schools? Just wondering if there's a difference in outlook depending on the general level of the school....

 

[piglet too]

The ironic thing for DH and me, is that DS14 would get the same grades no matter what. He is in Honors English, Biology, and History. He got "B's" in all three for first semester. The last three years, in junior high, he got the same grades in "regular" classes. For him, it is a matter of applying himself. He puts forth the least amount of effort required to get by.

 

[punkin]

We're going through this decision right now. We've talked to two college admissions people and they said, 'go for the better grades.' I think my son will be happier if able to participate in lots of extra stuff too rather than sitting home with homework every night.

You are probably right as far as admissions go, but In my DD's case, the more challenging classes are more intellectually stimulating and she would rather get a B in an AP class and learn something than get an A in a regular class and be bored to tears the entire time.

 

[agnes!]

You are probably right as far as admissions go, but In my DD's case, the more challenging classes are more intellectually stimulating and she would rather get a B in an AP class and learn something than get an A in a regular class and be bored to tears the entire time.

And some kids if they are bored with their classes won't try as hard and get *worse* grades.

agnes!

 

[golfgal]

Do you have any insight into what a private school might offer a "so so" or struggling student?

I know a few who've gone private but they are very good students and often got half of their tuition bill waived (which made it comparable to state prices). I just haven't seen a student, such as my daughter, get anything.

First of all, a private school costs more so there is more need. The federal aid then kicks in at a higher rate. Since schools want a diverse population there are often non-academic based scholarships available either through the school or other sources. They tend to be scholarships for people wanting to study in a certain field or coming from a certain area, etc. There are books you can buy that tells you about all of these scholarships and what not too.

No, the money isn't automatic for students like your DD but if she spends some time applying for every scholarship she can find, chances are she will get a good portion of her college paid for.

 

[punkin]

No, the money isn't automatic for students like your DD but if she spends some time applying for every scholarship she can find, chances are she will get a good portion of her college paid for.

Let's not forget that some colleges reduce financial aid/scholarships, dollar for dollar for every outside scholarship a student brings in.

 

[allison443]

You are probably right as far as admissions go, but In my DD's case, the more challenging classes are more intellectually stimulating and she would rather get a B in an AP class and learn something than get an A in a regular class and be bored to tears the entire time.

I think your dd is doing the right thing. My dd is a hs senior and I also have a dd in college already. Their hs guidance counselor sends to colleges with their hs transcripts a school profile with information about the high school, courses offered, grading system, etc. Also, many (most?) college applications include a form for the guidance counselor to fill out. A common/typical question it asks is to rate the difficulty of the student's course load. Did the student take the toughest courses available? This gives perspective to the school, if the kid has a 4.0 in regulars, gee, maybe they should have tried an honors course once in a while. The colleges we looked at all said this on their website/admissions information. They do look at the rigor of the program, and if your child challenged themselves (if the courses are available that it.)
My dd took all honors, accelerated (above honors) and six APs. She had a mixture of As/B+ in her strong subjects, down to a few Cs in math/science classes (not her strength). I have to believe the school looked at the strength of the program-she is 6 for 6 on acceptances so far.

 

[allison443]

I also wouldn't automatically assume a private college is "better" than a public college. I got that vibe from a few posts here.
Plus most colleges if not all have had significant decreases in their endowments, which funds their scholarships. The next few years should be pretty crazy in terms of financial aid, what schools can offer, availability of loans is supposedly decreasing, etc. I would not be surprised to see a number of the very small private colleges shut down over the next few years. JMO.
Many colleges have announced cutbacks, hiring freezes, Brandeis is selling its art collection, I wouldn't be surprised if some schools eliminate certain departments, etc.

Additionally, in terms of "financial need", I think there are a number of people who have lost jobs, etc. who would now qualify for financial aid, increasing the pool of those who need aid at the same time the colleges' endowments are shrinking.
Very nerve-wracking situation on many fronts.

 

[allison443]

That is a very important point. Oftentimes, you end up paying the same or less to go to a private school. I know in my case, SUNY said I was eligible for NO scholarships or aid (beyond the whopping $250 yearly Regents scholarship), but the private universities looked at the same FAFSA and grades and made generous offers (nearly full ride at University of Rochester and Carnegie Mellon, for example).

Wow that is great! I have to be a downer and point out that most kids could not get into Carnegie Mellon, though
Also many of the top schools only give need-based aid, not merit aid (CMU does give merit aid, I know!)

 

[allison443]

You are probably right as far as admissions go, but In my DD's case, the more challenging classes are more intellectually stimulating and she would rather get a B in an AP class and learn something than get an A in a regular class and be bored to tears the entire time.

And don't forget, the AP test can lead to college credit, or exempting the student from taking a required class in college, or "placing out" of an introductory level class, thus giving more flexibility in the college schedule. Very valuable in my dd's experience.

 

[Kirby]

And don't forget, the AP test can lead to college credit, or exempting the student from taking a required class in college, or "placing out" of an introductory level class, thus giving more flexibility in the college schedule. Very valuable in my dd's experience.

Only if the college will take the AP credit. Some colleges don't depending on what class it is. Also, too, for those that take college classes while still in high school for dual credit. Sometimes those classes don't count either. A friend of mine's son took dual credit english, economics and government his senior year. The college he went to would not accept the college credit from his government class towards his degree but they accepted the english and economics dual credit.