Help - Was Scammed!

[Chuck S]

Given how op has described how this scam has gone down so far I’m having a bit of a tough time seeing how the scammer couldn’t have pulled this off using the dvc rental board. I mean he had actual dvc points and did a few real reservations first to build up references. Then it sounds like he used some refundable cash bookings to make it look like he made points rentals in his customers names. (Can you even tell the difference between a cash reservation and a points reservation made by another person in your name if you import the reservation into MDE?), so he was willing to tie up his own money in this scam. Then he gave out his earlier people as actual bona fide references. Assuming this is the way it went down, sophisticated users reading these boards could have been scammed as well. Yes the fake reservation numbers and/or doctored reservation emails wouldn’t have worked, but if he was giving out real reservation numbers and had bona fide references using his real and verifiable name and phone number, couldn’t he have pulled this off on this rental forum as well? Yes I get he would have had to pay the gold member fee but that still would have been nominal versus his take.

Is it possible? Yes. Nothing is impossible. Is it more unlikely with our rules and safeguards, yes. Consider that registration requires their deeded name, email address, and we know through their thread title, what resort they claim to own at. If someone is offering say, 500 BLT points, 500 OKW Points, 500 Poly points, the deeds are readily available. Then consider that they are limited to a maximum of 6 Rental Threads per year from the date of their registration. Remember that this guy was giving the excuse of DVC System glitches for not giving valid reservation numbers. On a forum our size, that story would have been easily debunked. Would a scammer consider those hassles worth his time, when a Facebook group would have been far easier pickings? That is not to say no one has been ripped off here, but it is extremely rare. The last one I remember was several years ago, and turned out to be a close relative posing as the DVC owner. I've been a DVC R/T Mod here since Caskbill was living, and we used his processing program to run the board, so I'm guessing about 20 years.

 

[heynowirv]

Someone else is already suing him for stealing $300K from them so I have a feeling that this may just add on to the mess he's got himself in. Who knows at this point.

300,000? Who would give a total stranger that kind of money?

 

[robinb]

Another point to consider is that all the public shamming of a victim for explaining what happened prevents others from sharing similar stories that might help people to avoid the very thing the OP is getting shammed for.

Just sayin'

Hmmm ... I didn't read the comments as victim blaming but more of a PSA for people who are reading this thread now. If you're thinking of renting DVC points, please read the top of the DIS' Rental Board and apply that for where ever you rent.

However, it does sound like this particular scammer has all of his bases covered so unfortunately you can do due diligence and still get scammed .

I do want to address one thing the OP mentions happed to other people. She said that they received confirmation numbers but they could not add them to their MDE. Just because you can't connect a reservation to DME right away, it doesn't automatically mean the person is a scammer. It is a "glitch". That can happen if the confirmation has already been associated with another person's MDE. The reservation/confirmation has to be disconnected in MDE from the previous person so the new person can add it to their MDE.

I have rented personal reservations in the past where I had planned a visit and added the reservation to my MDE. I changed my mind and sold the reservation. I changed the names on the reservation correctly and had DVC send them a confirmation directly, but the system *still* would not allow them to connect to MDE until I called Disney's MDE technical support and had them reset the reservation. It is my policy to not accept payment until the renter has the reservation into their MDE so it was just a bump in the road for us.

I admit that it is a bit of a "red flag" if it the failure to connect to MDE goes on for more than a day (allowing for the DVC member enough time to call MDE and fix it) but I don't want people to panic and accuse someone of being a scammer when such a glitch really does exist.

 

[RoseGold]

Yea, let's give a round of applause to our mods here. It's a lot of work, and they've done such a great job. Stories like this show why it's so important.

Our FAQ is great best practices, and it's great to know that the board has been so successful at making this work well!

 

[c0reyann]

300,000? Who would give a total stranger that kind of money?

It was a friend he did this to - in total he stole 1.65 million from about 15 different friends from high school. He has some kind of con about investing in stock and he poses as a broker of some sort apparently. It's a WHOLE mess but he, and his family, are all in on this scheme.

 

[robinb]

It was a friend he did this to - in total he stole 1.65 million from about 15 different friends from high school. He has some kind of con about investing in stock and he poses as a broker of some sort apparently. It's a WHOLE mess but he, and his family, are all in on this scheme.

The DVC scam seems like chump change compared to that. It smells like a ponzi scheme to me. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the DVC victims are going to get a thing out of him after ex-friends are done with him. You should still absolutely press charges if you can so he can be held accountable for what he did to all of you.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

It was a friend he did this to - in total he stole 1.65 million from about 15 different friends from high school. He has some kind of con about investing in stock and he poses as a broker of some sort apparently. It's a WHOLE mess but he, and his family, are all in on this scheme.

Wow. What a total scum bag. I hope you all nail him. Seriously. Keep us posted.

 

[MomOTwins]

I think it's easy to armchair quarterback this and claim that scams can be easily avoided. Many extremely intelligent people fall victims to scams every day. I'm a lawyer for a living so I feel like I have a pretty radar for a scam, but con artist is short for "confidence artist" for a reason--these people are very persuasive and good at making you feel confident you are doing the right thing. I could give you a hundred examples, but it sounds like this fellow was a pretty crafty trickster (doing a legitimate transaction with the FB group owner so he could use them a reference was a deft move).

So all I'm going to say is, sorry OP, that sucks. I hope the police can help, and that you are still able to salvage it and have a nice Disney vacation in the end.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it's easy to armchair quarterback this and claim that scams can be easily avoided. Many extremely intelligent people fall victims to scams every day. I'm a lawyer for a living so I feel like I have a pretty radar for a scam, but con artist is short for "confidence artist" for a reason--these people are very persuasive and good at making you feel confident you are doing the right thing. I could give you a hundred examples, but it sounds like this fellow was a pretty crafty trickster (doing a legitimate transaction with the FB group owner so he could use them a reference was a deft move).

So all I'm going to say is, sorry OP, that sucks. I hope the police can help, and that you are still able to salvage it and have a nice Disney vacation in the end.

And, let’s also remember, that right up until check in, the owner can cancel, so no matter what, there is an element of trust involved in the best of transactions.

So, even due diligence, making sure the reservation is real, etc. before sending any money, this could still happen to someone.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Is it possible? Yes. Nothing is impossible. Is it more unlikely with our rules and safeguards, yes. Consider that registration requires their deeded name, email address, and we know through their thread title, what resort they claim to own at. If someone is offering say, 500 BLT points, 500 OKW Points, 500 Poly points, the deeds are readily available. Then consider that they are limited to a maximum of 6 Rental Threads per year from the date of their registration. Remember that this guy was giving the excuse of DVC System glitches for not giving valid reservation numbers. On a forum our size, that story would have been easily debunked. Would a scammer consider those hassles worth his time, when a Facebook group would have been far easier pickings? That is not to say no one has been ripped off here, but it is extremely rare. The last one I remember was several years ago, and turned out to be a close relative posing as the DVC owner. I've been a DVC R/T Mod here since Caskbill was living, and we used his processing program to run the board, so I'm guessing about 20 years.

Fair enough.

 

[heynowirv]

Wow. What a total scum bag. I hope you all nail him. Seriously. Keep us posted.

my sentiments exactly.

 

[tjkraz]

And, let’s also remember, that right up until check in, the owner can cancel, so no matter what, there is an element of trust involved in the best of transactions.

So, even due diligence, making sure the reservation is real, etc. before sending any money, this could still happen to someone.

Agree.

I rented points literally 19 years ago, before the days of MDE or even emailed reservation confirmations. All I had was a one-page printed "confirmation"...which could have been completely fabricated and I might not have known the difference.

I was nervous right up until the moment that I was handed my villa key cards.

It was a calculated risk then, and it's a calculated risk today. As renting has grown more and more mainstream, it's a bigger target for scammers. we're fortunate that the overwhelming majority of rental transactions go through without a hitch. But I really don't know what people can do to give themselves absolute protection, other than work through a rental broker who provides that guarantee. Ownership, references, reservations numbers...these are all things that can be falsified with a basic understanding of the system. I'm not sure that OP could have done any more to protect herself, other than using a broker instead. I realize that sounds like a plug for brokers, but if they're willing to guarantee that every customer will have either a reservation or a refund, their value to this process is clear.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

But I really don't know what people can do to give themselves absolute protection, other than work through a rental broker who provides that guarantee.

As somebody who exclusively "rents to transfer in," I do wish there were more brokers that facilitated transfers. There's one relatively small one that does so, but rarely has much inventory. It's nerve-wracking every time I do a transfer as I usually have to pay at least half upfront. I think David's or DVC Rental Store would make a mint if they even just offered to escrow for private transfer transactions. I'd certainly pay a $2 or $3 per point premium for that service.

 

[Sandisw]

As somebody who exclusively "rents to transfer in," I do wish there were more brokers that facilitated transfers. There's one relatively small one that does so, but rarely has much inventory. It's nerve-wracking every time I do a transfer as I usually have to pay at least half upfront. I think David's or DVC Rental Store would make a mint if they even just offered to escrow for private transfer transactions. I'd certainly pay a $2 or $3 per point premium for that service.

Since the contract specifically prohibits money for transfers,,even though it is done…it may be harder to be part of the process, unlike renting which is expressly allowed.

 

[DonMacGregor]

One other thing to consider: typically a scam lures the victim in with the promise of some special discount or benefit. Savings you wouldn’t ordinarily see but are being offered at some sacrifice to the con artist that conveniently works in the “favor” of the mark. From what I’ve read, this guy was offering points at $17 each, which really isn’t such a great deal as to make you smell fish. Not like some “I’m a foreign owner with 500 points I’m going to lose due to Covid and will rent them for $10 each” kinda deal. In fact, it’s right in the middle of the $16-$18 range available right now on the rental boards.

 

[MickeyMice]

i was discussing this with my wife, who is a professional investigator (and is not on these boards but is on various DVC FB groups where this was mentioned). if you have firsthand experience with this scam and want me to put you in touch with her, DM me.

 

[c0reyann]

I didn't know until today when I posted a blog post about what happened to me but apparently some of the others DID have super low point rental rates of $10 and $11/point.

 

[tofubeast]

And, let’s also remember, that right up until check in, the owner can cancel, so no matter what, there is an element of trust involved in the best of transactions.

So, even due diligence, making sure the reservation is real, etc. before sending any money, this could still happen to someone.

I thought that ressies canceled within 7 days of the actual check-in date are not bankable. Am I wrong? I didn't think an owner could cancel within 7 days and get their points back (or at least without a lot of hassle of them expiring very quickly).

I've only rented once from a FB group. Fortunately, it went okay, and it was for just one night and within 7 days of the date of travel. I've historically had great rental transactions here on the DIS and when I tell friends about the renting process, I point them to the Dis.

 

[Marionnette]

I thought that ressies canceled within 7 days of the actual check-in date are not bankable. Am I wrong? I didn't think an owner could cancel within 7 days and get their points back (or at least without a lot of hassle of them expiring very quickly).

I've only rented once from a FB group. Fortunately, it went okay, and it was for just one night and within 7 days of the date of travel. I've historically had great rental transactions here on the DIS and when I tell friends about the renting process, I point them to the Dis.

That's not correct. Reservations can be canceled up until one day before check in. However, canceling 30 days or less before check in causes the points to go into holding. Holding points cannot be used to book a reservation that is more than 60 days away. And while they cannot be banked, it doesn't mean that they expire any earlier than the end of the owner's use year.

 

[Sandisw]

I thought that ressies canceled within 7 days of the actual check-in date are not bankable. Am I wrong? I didn't think an owner could cancel within 7 days and get their points back (or at least without a lot of hassle of them expiring very quickly).

I've only rented once from a FB group. Fortunately, it went okay, and it was for just one night and within 7 days of the date of travel. I've historically had great rental transactions here on the DIS and when I tell friends about the renting process, I point them to the Dis.

They get them back but they go into holding which restricts them. But It is still very possible to use them to get a reservation for another trip.

The point was that any owner who wants to scam will scam. Even if the renter does it all correct and has a valid reservation and doesn’t pay until it is linked, the owner can still cancel it, and the renter won’t know until they show up and have nothing booked and their money goes.

Renting is always a risk. There is nothing a renter can do ahead of time to guarantee things 100%.