Heartbreaking news...a big reminder to be aware of wildlife on property

[anniemae]

Seems this gator was around for a while. People has an article of a KY family that was warned not to go to the beach area at GF by other guests because a huge gator was spotted in the area.

There was also a separate case of a British family at the Poly beach who had a gator lurch out of the water at them in April. I wonder if this is the same gator and if Disney was actively looking for it?

 

[Eastern]

Signs would help to a degree, however, if it's a gator, you don't have to be in the water. If there is water beneath a shrub near a building, there s a chance that a gator could be in that shrub. There's an even larger danger that a snake is in the bush.
All of the shoulda, woulda, couldas, won't prevent a tragedy in the future because not every circumstance can be prevented. The ideas make us feel better. As I posted previously, a gator jumped out of a ditch and grabbed a dog from a leash. A friend of mine's daughter was bitten by a snake at a WDW resort and was in the hospital for days after she almost died. There is no way to be 100% safe from an accident ( a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury Merriam Webster).

I'm going to disagree with this because more information/education always beats out no information.

 

[JimmyV]

I wonder what the atmosphere is at the Parks right now. There are numerous attractions that incorporate alligators/crocodiles. I realize that Disney can't close them all in an effort to appear insensitive. But I wonder if a ride on the Jungle Cruise or Peter Pan or Kilimanjaro Safari will turn into more solemn occasions over the next few days/weeks than they otherwise would have been.

 

[mjkacmom]

Yes, that's this week's topic. A few years ago the topic was the child who was bitten by the snake. Why didn't Disney warn guests, why didn't they have pest control etc... search it on these boards. Next it will be a guest struck by lightning. OMG Disney never told us how dangerous the lightning was in FL, if we knew, we would have taken cover. Oh if lightning is that dangerous why don't they close the parks if people should not be outside ...etc. just a preview of comments that will be stated

Based on responses here, I'd say half don't know there are alligators at WDW. I'm sure if the general population would be fewer. Many go to WDW as a one and done trip. Tourists who go to WDW don't give a fig about Florida's ecosystem, they just want to be immersed in the Disney bubble.

Disney knows there are tons of alligators on property, but obviously didn't think they were a threat, relying on their program of identifying potential problem gators, and euthanize program. Therefore, no need to scare guests by signage, even though there is signage in other places in Orlando, including a neighboring resort. They took s calculated risk, and lost.

Watching the Today show, all hosts agreed that the No Swimming sign would indicate a lack of lifeguards, the set up was a friendly beach, and wading wouldn't seem dangerous (and from these threads, it appears kids waded there a lot, nothing was done to prevent it, even a CM claims to have waded there.

 

[Eastern]

We just left WDW yesterday morning and when I heard this news, I just sat and cried. I have not read all of the posts here, but I am appalled by many. While you are arguing about signage and how perfect a parent you are (because nothing bad will ever happen to your child), maybe we should pull up some empathy and compassion. A two year old boy has died in a tragic ACCIDENT in front of his parents. His dad and mom will live with the images of this tragedy for the rest of their lives. In the next few days they will head back to Nebraska to pick out a casket and bury their child. They will look at his room, see his little clothes and his favorite toys, and relive that moment. They will hear his favorite song, see his favorite movie, or eat his favorite food and it will be devastating. They will have to explain to their son's little friends why he is gone. Perhaps you have never lost a child and I pray you never will, but think about how you would feel at that moment. These parents had taken their kids on a magical trip and were spending time with them. They were not negligent or abusive. His father was right beside him, trying to keep him safe. A freak occurrence snatched the life of their precious child. Why does someone have to be at fault? Bad things happen and sometimes we just need to be supportive and say I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry your child died. Please don't feel like it was your fault or that there was anything else you could have done. Show some compassion.

You know nothing about the background of any of these posters. You do not know what we have experienced, so I don't think you should be making assumptions.

The people arguing for signage have a lot of compassion. They don't want this to ever happen to anyone again.

 

[20yBWDW]

Disney rolled the dice and lost. Did they expect someone to get killed by an alligator at the GF? No. Was it negligent not to warn people about a known and easily accessible danger, when many other hotels and areas with water are posting alligator warning signs? Yes.

I think this very well may be what happened. The report of a British family and Canadian family who encountered an aggressive alligator could prove to be the determining factor, in my opinion. If that information made it to the powers-that-be, and documentation shows that they acknowledged the risks and took the gamble, or that they ordered new signs but made no effort to communicate it in the interim, I think they'll be found negligent. Other hotels posting alligator warning signs would not necessarily prove Disney negligent, IMO, if those hotels had notice of aggressive alligators on their premises or if they were being especially prudent and it was not an industry standard in Florida. I think Disney could argue that they did not consider the alligators easily accessible if they had no reports of guests being frightened by them, and they were taking steps to monitor for any who became large enough to be a threat and then remove them immediately.

 

[Eastern]

Thank you for this. I just wrote a post, but deleted it, on this very topic. This is the world we live in, that is why our country is in such a mess. Some people beat up on others no matter what the situation. It's not just on this board, but comments made on news stories as well. These are loving parents, maybe more so than many making crazy statements and comments. Being judgmental appears to be easier than having compassion these days. The news is on now and Disney is reviewing all their signage regarding Alligators, since no signs were posted that they were in the lagoon. They also just said that Disney knew there were many alligators in the lagoon and having signs posted would have possibly deterred families from getting so close to the water's edge. Personally I have been at that edge, it could have happened to me, or my family, and you who have been at this resort, it could have been you. Its time to force negativity and judgement out of our thoughts and words. Praying for this precious family that they will find peace in the midst of the storm.

Coping this from poster Blonde, exactly what I was saying...https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.venditti.18/posts/10154371872047147

Praying is fine, but it doesn't change things at Disney. People making judgements, specifically that Disney had improper/inadequate signage, does. I'm not less compassionate than you because you choose to pray and I choose to discuss signage.

 

[nkereina]

E. Coli here.

When the danger is drowning and the property owner doesn't want to be sued for not providing a lifeguard. The dangerous watercraft in the area. Possibly pollution/bacteria/etc., if you think that the danger is primarily from inhaling or swallowing the water.

So your areas would permit wading in E.Coli/bacterial infested waters? What's the difference if the water is coming in contact with you. Someone could easily be pushed over while horsing around and the water could be ingested. The no lifeguard/drowning situation is still a concern when people are wading if small kids are involved, and if these people are pushed over or pushed out into deeper waters, on purpose or not. IMO, it's all or nothing - you're allowed in the water or you're not. No swimming signs are there for a reason so why test your luck?

 

[JackOfHearts]

This was a horrific accident. I had no idea gators were such a problem in Florida. I knew they are in Florida of course, but did not realize they were commonly seen in cities or other heavily populated areas. I've seen photos of gators on golf courses, in parking lots, etc but I thought people were taking pictures because it was so unusual.

I cannot imagine the terror this family felt, having their worst nightmare unfold while surrounded by happy people watching fireworks. I do not see how they can recover from this. Everything will be a reminder of Lane and this tragedy- fireworks, other people's vacation photos, a kid wearing a Mickey shirt, a princess birthday party.

I also hope the signage improves. The photos I've seen say "no swimming please" which I think minimizes the danger. Other hotels have signs noting that alligators are in the area so I am surprised Disney does not.

 

[Indecisive]

Many years ago, I went to Africa on vacation. Yes, I was aware that there is dangerous wildlife in Africa. Yet, I still recall and appreciate several very blunt warning signs I read. One was at a resort--there was a sign posted at the tree line. It did not just say "No hiking." Instead, it said something like: "Do not cross tree line. Danger of lions and other wild animals." Another sign, in a wildlife preserve said: "Do not exit your vehicle, as you may be mistaken for a poacher. Poachers, or those mistaken for poachers, may be shot on sight." Dang! Those signs got my attention and I still remember them all these years later. They certainly drove the point home that I should not forget I wasn't in New England any longer.

In the case of this alligator attack, I can't say that Disney was reckless and directly caused this incident. It's not as though they set alligators loose on the property deliberately to create an interesting swamp effect. Yet, I truly can't believe all these Disney apologists who really think it is okay that Disney knew about alligators in the lagoon, failed to warn guests about them, and even created a welcoming beach with sand gently sloping into the water, and invited families to enjoy events on that beach, in the dark, with the only warning sign being "No Swimming," which to a reasonable person could just mean that there are no lifeguards on duty, so swimming is not allowed. Likewise, I truly can't believe all these people who are saying that anyone visiting Disney World should, of course, thoroughly research various flora and fauna beforehand, as though they are preparing for a trek through the Amazon instead of visiting an amusement park, and familiarize themselves with the fact that Disney's manmade lagoon feeds to a natural lake, which feeds to canals, etc. Please! That is absurd. Likewise, I truly can't believe those who are obsessing over whether Lane was splashing in 4 inches of water or 6 inches, and was he 5 feet from shore or 10, and why was he splashing in there in the first place because the water is so gross. Judge others much? It was dark, so i am guessing the "grossness" of the water may not have been so obvious. The family was presumably having a wonderful time, and may have for a short while been lost in "the magic," just soaking in the experience. Your children have never splashed in a gross mud puddle, or put their fingers in their mouth before you could stop them, after touching something "gross"? If so, then you must be the world's most devout helicopter parent.

Really, we can't all agree that Disney should post a more specific sign at the water's edge? I personally would go a lot further than that and say that those "beaches" are ridiculous in the first place. Who wants to sit on a beach when you can't go in the water? They should really re-design the waterfront and have more of a boardwalk or, at a minimum, some fencing between the sand and the water.

 

[NYDisGuy]

Are there at least no feeding signs? This seems like an obvious one because people will not only leave their trash behind but also throw food into the water which could entice these gators to approach humans without fear. I also know that in the past Disney had gator wranglers that would be on property 24/7. I find it hard to believe that 5, 4-7 foot gators were found in the near vicinity to where the boy was taken and it was not known by trained trappers.

 

[BrianL]

I wonder what the atmosphere is at the Parks right now. There are numerous attractions that incorporate alligators/crocodiles. I realize that Disney can't close them all in an effort to appear insensitive. But I wonder if a ride on the Jungle Cruise or Peter Pan or Kilimanjaro Safari will turn into more solemn occasions over the next few days/weeks than they otherwise would have been.

I read that any jokes on the Jungle Cruise about the crocodiles and "watching your children or the crocodiles will" are now off the script. I haven't heard about other changes.

 

[20yBWDW]

Regarding the judgment issue: I'm not at all one to harshly judge the parents in a situation like this. I'm an imperfect parent. My kids have managed to get into more dangerous situations than I can count, and we've been saved by strangers, friends, policies at public locations, or coincidence/fate.

But I do think the discussion of signage in a "what can be done to prevent this in the future" is valuable and should not be discouraged as judgment. Not when the focus is on what the community or the corporation (as opposed to the parents) can do. Sure, one could make the argument that it's up to the parents to keep their kids safe, but the truth is, parents aren't gods. Our powers are limited. We can do our best, but there will still be gaps, and if a sign or two can help fill those gaps to save a few lives, I think it's worth the discussion.

I do understand that even with signs, there will be people who disobey them. But when you have rule followers (like me) who honestly did not know that "no swimming" also meant "no wading" then a simple change in verbiage could cut the number down drastically. Add a picture of a gator, and parents of children under reading age are able to say--"you can't go in the water, there are alligators there" and the picture will remind the child every time they go near it. That could save a life. I know, I know, children should never be making their own decisions or be out of arm's reach, but my crazy kids sometimes got in their heads to do something, and took off to do it the minute I let go of their hands to tie their sister's shoe or scratch an itch, or open a car door or pick up a towel I dropped. So yeah, I'm all for brainstorming and debating methods that may deter a repeat of this tragedy. It takes nothing away from my compassion for the parents.

 

[Sanchez]

Disney rolled the dice and lost. Did they expect someone to get killed by an alligator at the GF? No. Was it negligent not to warn people about a known and easily accessible danger, when many other hotels and areas with water are posting alligator warning signs? Yes.

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but thank goodness people like you are not responsible for making laws (though I do cringe that people like you are part of a jury pool.) You are creating an illogical and impossible standard. Alligators are the topic of the day and, in your mind, visitors should have been warned, educated and access to water idiot-proofed. All of this despite the fact that the incident was the first of its kind on Disney property and is rare overall. It was a freak incident. Yet you continue to ignore that there are countless risks and that for any company to adequately warn is simply not practical (nor required by law.)

Throwing around words like "negligent" underscores your lack of rationale and logic. Take some time to read Florida law on the subject of wild animals and you will see that your conclusion of negligence is not supported. http://www.leagle.com/decision/1986839487So2d352_1752/PALUMBO v. GAME & FRESH WATER FISH COM'N

From the case:

"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of or to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

 

[20yBWDW]

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but thank goodness people like you are not responsible for making laws (though I do cringe that people like you are part of a jury pool.) You are creating an illogical and impossible standard. Alligators are the topic of the day and, in your mind, visitors should have been warned, educated and access to water idiot-proofed. All of this despite the fact that the incident was the first of its kind on Disney property and is rare overall. It was a freak incident. Yet you continue to ignore that there are countless risks and that for any company to adequately warn is simply not practical (nor required by law.)

Throwing around words like "negligent" underscores your lack of rationale and logic. Take some time to read Florida law on the subject of wild animals and you will see that your conclusion of negligence is not supported. http://www.leagle.com/decision/1986839487So2d352_1752/PALUMBO v. GAME & FRESH WATER FISH COM'N

From the case:

"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of or to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

That's only part of the laws that apply here. You're pointing to the laws specific to wild animals. Notice it's saying that the owner of the land is not required to anticipate or guard. There are also laws regarding a landowner's duty to invited guests. Duties to warn them of known dangers. Based on the wording Eastern used, he/she was not relying on the wild animal doctrine to determine liability, but good old general negligence based on the duty of the landowner and whether or not Disney fulfilled that duty.

Edited to add: The case you've linked...the property was marked with signs warning of the alligators and the danger presented by them. Maybe it wasn't clear, but the reason the wild animal discussion was pivotal here was because the duty to warn had been fulfilled. The plaintiff in that case was trying to argue that the property owner should've done more to prevent the harm, such as putting up barricades, or be liable for the harm.

 

[jknc]

Don't be ridiculous. These people were on a beach area adjacent to a luxurious resort. It was the trip of a lifetime. They had no idea 5 alligators were swimming in the lake their child was playing in.

I will continue to be "ridiculous".

Having stayed several nights at Polynesian last year with my 3 children, I EDUCATED THEM THAT WE ARE IN FLORIDA and while you may not see alligators or signs indicating they are present in the lagoon, I promise you they are there.

I educated my children.

I did not need signage, waivers, brochures, videos, podcasts, skywriting to tell me there are dangerous animals in the water.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Why are you going off on tangents? Why can't you just agree that Disney should have alligator warnings in appropriate places on property? Why shouldn't Disney educate people about alligators on property?

If just a sign with a gator sure, but that isn't what some are asking for. They want to be educated on them a how to avoid them. As I have stated, they walk on land too. They can be found in other areas beside the water. They are also not the only dangers, so where does that line get drawn. That's the question and it's a big one. Does it stop at gators in the water, and only stop here until the next tragedy happens, which in time will

 

[Indecisive]

The literal legal liability of Disney is not the only issue here. There is also plain common sense and courtesy. Way earlier in this thread, someone made the point that if they lived in Florida and had a pond in their backyard, known to be inhabited by alligators, they would have the common sense not to invite their guests from out of town to come sit by the water's edge at night, especially without mentioning that there very well may be alligators in the pond.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I educated my children.

I did not need signage, waivers, brochures, videos, podcasts, skywriting to tell me there are dangerous animals in the water.

Good for you!!!!!!!!

So did I.

Not everyone will know to. No reason to oppose placing signs there that will educate them, right??

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Well I do hope they raise the age limit for the mice craft not sure it a good idea for young kids. When those boats are wading they are almost at water level.

It's up to the parents to use their judgment. Just because they list an age, I never necessarily felt they were old enough or mature enough. ..it's merely a guide to go by. Every child is different and so is their build